REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Tobias Funke on Wed May 22, 2013 1:42 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Why the hell do you cater a coaching decision for a 40 year old PG?

Is New York going to fire Woodson, so that they can get a coach in there to maximize Kidd's talents?


I had some lengthy debates here about the Princeton. It was not my first choice, but I didnt have a problem with it the way the majority of fans did. And I understood fully where people were coming from with not wanting to suppress Nash, but I thought this was one of the few things Brown handled correctly.

Install a system where your best players would thrive (Dwight and Kobe turned the ball over a TON, but they shot the ball extremely well when they didn't in the Princeton), but leave full flexibility for Nash to call audibles whenever he wanted. The problem was Nash didn't feel the need to be assertive early on, and then he got hurt.

It just didnt make sense to bring in a guy who's system (which is alot more rigid that people realize) needs sustained top level PG play when the one we have was 39, and already injured at the time of hire no less, and requires uptempo, when the only young guy in the core is coming off back surgery.

You play to your strengths, even if they aren't as "entertaining" as you'd like.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby revgen on Wed May 22, 2013 2:03 pm

The problem with this team has less to do with playing through D12 and Pau, and more to do with our crap defense, which Phil didn't really talk about in his interview with Dan Patrick. No matter what offensive tact we took during the season, our defense always stunk. If Phil comes back in a management role, he better have a solution for a our defense beyond the traditional "the triangle will setup our defense" schtick.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 2:14 pm

The Rock wrote:Triangle is hard to learn. If you remember guys were so lost on the court, we didn't think it was a good idea to brinf in a xoaxh who'd make players learn yet another system. MDAs is Nash Centric but its easy to learn. Nobosy thought NAsh would be out till Christmas and he'd never be the same again

Rock,

More difficult than the Princeton offense? More difficult than trying to stick a square peg (D'Antoni's run and gun) into round hole (Lakers old, non-athletic, non-elite-shooting personell)?

I know you want to stand by the MDA decision more than anyone, but let's be realistic. This roster was far more suited for the Triangle, and that's a fact. It's not that hard to learn, especially when your core guys are on board.

Kobe, Ron, Pau. What system would suit Dwight more than the Triangle? Interestingly enough, this year Steve Nash ended up playing the EXACT SAME role he would play in the Triangle, except for MDA.

MDA's system is easy to learn because.....there is NO system. It's ball/PG dominant...the guy is weak in basketball fundamentals but we'll save that discussion for elsewhere.

There are reasons we chose MDA over Phil but 90% of them are not X's and O's.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 2:19 pm

revgen wrote:The problem with this team has less to do with playing through D12 and Pau, and more to do with our crap defense, which Phil didn't really talk about in his interview with Dan Patrick. No matter what offensive tact we took during the season, our defense always stunk. If Phil comes back in a management role, he better have a solution for a our defense beyond the traditional "the triangle will setup our defense" schtick.

Well, the solution to that is a better bench, SF, and point guard on D.

Shore up 6th and 7th man with guys who can play D, get a young/athletic SF, get a pg that's decent defensively, and even this MDA team would be in the top 20 on defense.

But to take that team from the top 20 to top 10, it is true that the triangle would help. We had terrible offense this year. Led to turnovers which led to easy buckets for the opponents. Lots of missed jumpers, which led to long rebounds and fast breaks for opponents.

You fix our offense and get us to take better shots, get us better athletes and role players and we can be top 10.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Tobias Funke on Wed May 22, 2013 2:29 pm

I hate to get into the Triangle argument because it makes it seem like Phil was the only coach out there that would have been a better hire than Pringles, but IMO implementing the offense wouldn't have been as hard as people think or want to make it seem. Easy? Nope, but not as rough as the Princeton which almost everyone was learning for the first time simultaneously.

Pretty much half of the main rotation was just a year removed from playing in triangle. The 5 might be the easily position to teach the triangle to, and Nash to say the least is a pretty smart guy. In fact as Chillbongo said, he wound up playing a similar role this season anyways once Kobe kicked Dantoni's offense to the curb.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 2:32 pm

The Rock wrote:Triangle is hard to learn. If you remember guys were so lost on the court, we didn't think it was a good idea to brinf in a xoaxh who'd make players learn yet another system. MDAs is Nash Centric but its easy to learn. Nobosy thought NAsh would be out till Christmas and he'd never be the same again


:man10:
Chicago: Year 1 went to the Conf. Finals....Year 2 the start of 6 titles in 8 years
LA: Year 1 led to a 3 peat and 7 total trips to the Finals, winning 5, over a span of 10 seasons

Meanwhile, the guy with the easier offense, needs a training camp to really show off the goods.

Get the f out of here with that weak a** argument.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby The Rock on Wed May 22, 2013 2:53 pm

You do realize those teams had a young healthy Pippen, MJ, Shaq, Kobe right....we had all star caliber players who had tons of mileage and who were not healthy. Both situations completely different

Its hard to teach old dogs new tricks (ahem Malone and Payton didnt exactly excel here)
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby revgen on Wed May 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
revgen wrote:The problem with this team has less to do with playing through D12 and Pau, and more to do with our crap defense, which Phil didn't really talk about in his interview with Dan Patrick. No matter what offensive tact we took during the season, our defense always stunk. If Phil comes back in a management role, he better have a solution for a our defense beyond the traditional "the triangle will setup our defense" schtick.

Well, the solution to that is a better bench, SF, and point guard on D.

Shore up 6th and 7th man with guys who can play D, get a young/athletic SF, get a pg that's decent defensively, and even this MDA team would be in the top 20 on defense.

But to take that team from the top 20 to top 10, it is true that the triangle would help. We had terrible offense this year. Led to turnovers which led to easy buckets for the opponents. Lots of missed jumpers, which led to long rebounds and fast breaks for opponents.

You fix our offense and get us to take better shots, get us better athletes and role players and we can be top 10.


Then Phil is going to be disappointed. Mitch has already made it clear that we're strapped financially and have very little room for making moves.

Terrible offense? No. We were the #9 ranked team in points per possession (ORtg) in the league. That's despite 2 coaching changes and multiple guys getting hurt. As far as TO's go, we were the 14th worst team in TOV%, which puts us in the middle of the pack. The problem is that we're so slow defensively that all of the TO's we do have kill us. The Triangle will help with that, but it only hides what is a serious flaw, that can only be fixed by getting younger and implementing a more complex defensive strategy to offset our weaknesses. Phil needs to help with the latter if he comes aboard. So far, I've heard of no solutions from him other than the "triangle will help our defense" outlook.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 3:09 pm

Rock: So you admit that we got an old team, but lets hire a coach that is known for "go go go"? :what:

And I do know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks....so try this angle, why not get them old dogs to do tricks they know? (ahem Kobe, Pau, Metta vs Nash)

So I guess the FO's propaganda seems to be working on some folks...

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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby The Rock on Wed May 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Rock: So you admit that we got an old team, but lets hire a coach that is known for "go go go"? :what:

And I do know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks....so try this angle, why not get them old dogs to do tricks they know? (ahem Kobe, Pau, Metta vs Nash)

So I guess the FO's propaganda seems to be working on some folks...

#U.O.E.N.O.


So what if he's known for go go go? He didn't utilize seven seconds or less here. Geeze. It basically came down to execution. Did Pau get the job done early? No. Was he competing? No. So why continue utilizing him?

Was Dwight effective in the post to start the year? No. So why continue pounding the ball through him in straight postups?

Nash comes back. The guy who's Number 2 in assists in 2011/2012...ok run the offense through him trust his decision making. Didn't work because he was injured and hurt and shooters aren't knocking down enough shots (MWP, Meeks, Jamison)

Ok next option...put the ball in Kobe's hands and trust his decision making

We were never up and down and jacking up shots...we took 3s out of ball movement and the paint being packed. Our shooters simply knock enough down to keep the defense honest

But that wasn't even the biggest issue...it was defense
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 3:19 pm

revgen wrote:Then Phil is going to be disappointed. Mitch has already made it clear that we're strapped financially and have very little room for making moves.

Terrible offense? No. We were the #9 ranked team in points per possession (ORtg) in the league. That's despite 2 coaching changes and multiple guys getting hurt. As far as TO's go, we were the 14th worst team in TOV%, which puts us in the middle of the pack. The problem is that we're so slow defensively that all of the TO's we do have kill us. The Triangle will help with that, but it only hides what is a serious flaw, that can only be fixed by getting younger and implementing a more complex defensive strategy to offset our weaknesses. Phil needs to help with the latter if he comes aboard. So far, I've heard of no solutions from him other than the "triangle will help our defense" outlook.

We have little room, but some of that possibility is predicated on moving Pau. Making 3/4 is probable. We can Move Pau for a wing, a 6th man, and fill out or bench with the mini MLE. It is even possible to get a better point guard a la Steve Nash for Kyle Lowry.

I don't look at points per possession when I think about the complete picture for good offense. Regardless of what TOV% says, we were tied for 26th in turnovers per game. We were 9th in possessions per game.

It might not be the end all, be all but I noticed us lose a lot of games this year on fast breaks, many of which were caused by turnovers. Being among the top of the league in possessions per game as well as turnovers per game does not result in elite teams. That needs to change, and it will help our defense too. Regardless of turnovers slowing down the game will reduce possessions for the other team too. With our roster, that's what we should have been doing -- slowing it down and making efficient plays.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 3:23 pm

The Rock wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Rock: So you admit that we got an old team, but lets hire a coach that is known for "go go go"? :what:

And I do know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks....so try this angle, why not get them old dogs to do tricks they know? (ahem Kobe, Pau, Metta vs Nash)

So I guess the FO's propaganda seems to be working on some folks...

#U.O.E.N.O.


So what if he's known for go go go? He didn't utilize seven seconds or less here. Geeze. It basically came down to execution. Did Pau get the job done early? No. Was he competing? No. So why continue utilizing him?

Was Dwight effective in the post to start the year? No. So why continue pounding the ball through him in straight postups?

Nash comes back. The guy who's Number 2 in assists in 2011/2012...ok run the offense through him trust his decision making. Didn't work because he was injured and hurt and shooters aren't knocking down enough shots (MWP, Meeks, Jamison)

Ok next option...put the ball in Kobe's hands and trust his decision making

We were never up and down and jacking up shots...we took 3s out of ball movement and the paint being packed. Our shooters simply knock enough down to keep the defense honest

But that wasn't even the biggest issue...it was defense


When did Pau become central to this argument?

When, has Dwight EVER been effective in the post?

You know "running the offense" through someone means they don't have to score, right? Have you watched Pau Gasol play? Shaq?

Why would the best team in the Association hire a coach for a gimmicky offense, and then ask him to run a system completely different than his gimmicky offense?

The main reason offense wasn't an issue is because of Kobe Bean F***** Bryant. You take him off this team and we're a bunch of retards.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 3:24 pm

WTF are you talking about Rock?

This isn't a conversation about our season in review. Its about management jumping the gun...and waking a man at midnight to make a hire after they claimed they would exercise due diligence in finding the right coach for this team.

After the hire, the FO claimed MDA was the right fit for this team. That the players were too dumb to pick up the triangle.

Fast forward....they give MDA credit for adjusting to this team, cause his offense wasn't the right fit. Then they feed us a line saying that the man needs a training camp....um, wait...what? Wasn't this offense easy to pick up.

And seriously Rock...you're going to feed me that last line...and somehow defend MDA in the process....really?
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby The Rock on Wed May 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
When did Pau become central to this argument?

When, has Dwight EVER been effective in the post?

You know "running the offense" through someone means they don't have to score, right? Have you watched Pau Gasol play? Shaq?

Why would the best team in the Association hire a coach for a gimmicky offense, and then ask him to run a system completely different than his gimmicky offense?

The main reason offense wasn't an issue is because of Kobe Bean F***** Bryant. You take him off this team and we're a bunch of retards.


Pau is part of the argument because he was supposedly underutilized to begin the year

Dwight was more productive in the post in 2011/2012 than Andrew Bynum who is supposedly some great skilled player

https://twitter.com/erivera7/statuses/220207751522037763

Bynum in 2011 via @mySynergySports: Post-Ups (0.90 points per possession, 46.8%, 237 FGA) | Dwight (0.93 PPP, 50.6%, 715 FGA).


To run the offense through someone they should also be a threat to score


I feel like we're going round and round with the argumets here with you and Vash

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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 3:32 pm

Well its good you're dunzo....defending MDA and the FO's asinine decision would make you bozo...and you wouldn't want that... :man12:
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby revgen on Wed May 22, 2013 3:40 pm

Chillbongo wrote:We have little room, but some of that possibility is predicated on moving Pau. Making 3/4 is probable. We can Move Pau for a wing, a 6th man, and fill out or bench with the mini MLE. It is even possible to get a better point guard a la Steve Nash for Kyle Lowry.

I don't look at points per possession when I think about the complete picture for good offense. Regardless of what TOV% says, we were tied for 26th in turnovers per game. We were 9th in possessions per game.

It might not be the end all, be all but I noticed us lose a lot of games this year on fast breaks, many of which were caused by turnovers. Being among the top of the league in possessions per game as well as turnovers per game does not result in elite teams. That needs to change, and it will help our defense too. Regardless of turnovers slowing down the game will reduce possessions for the other team too. With our roster, that's what we should have been doing -- slowing it down and making efficient plays.


Pau has an expiring contract, but rumors are that the cap is going to rise next season by a significant amount. If it rises to 65 million (above the 58 million it was last season), interest in Pau is going to diminish. Even if we do get a decent trade for him, I don't see it happening until the deadline. 19 million dollars is still 19 million dollars. Expiring or not, that's a huge contract that's difficult to move.

I don't think Kyle Lowry is a guard that will help this team. If we trade Nash, it has to be for guys like Rondo or Deron Williams. With Kobe coming off an achilles injury we need an elite guard. Nash may be old, but he's still damn good when he's healthy. Lowry, not so much.

Possessions per game does matter since a higher possession team will produce more TO's. I do agree that slowing it down will help to a degree, but we tried that same approach with Mike Brown, and our defense still stunk it up in the postseason when we needed it most. Slowing down the offense is only part of the solution. Not the total solution. So far, Phil only offers to adjust our offense while offering no solution for our defensive rotations beyond the "triangle will help" philosophy. Bringing Phil in is a good idea, but we also need to bring in a defensive mind to implement solutions on that end of the floor.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 3:45 pm

Rock you claimed Dwight was not effective in the post to start the year, and that is why it is OK that MDA did not want to feature him. Then you provide stats to show that he was overall more effective than Andrew Bynum in the post. Ok. Not sure how that relates.

Vash is trying to explain to you why MDA is the most ridiculous choice to coach this team. You respond with random stats FROM 2011 when Dwight played 30 LESS games than Bynum, and I don't see how they are relevant. Back up your outlandish claims, and provide proper references.

The Rock wrote:To run the offense through someone they should also be a threat to score

17.5 ppg on nearly 58% shooting.

The only reason you are "dunzo" is because you know this argument is going nowhere.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed May 22, 2013 3:54 pm

Rev, is there a realistic possibility of getting a Williams or Rondo for Pau? Celtics are high on Bradley, but no way Rondo is available for Pau.

I read somewhere it was confirmed the cap will be ~$65M this season. If we wait until deadline, teams will know we are pressured and try to low-ball us. I think Lowry is decent because he's a play maker, he's younger, and can stay in front of guys. I see where you're going with the elite guard idea and think it's great, just didn't think that it was possible.

No I agreed that possessions increase turnovers, and so that's why we should reduce possessions. The other reason is it would in turn reduce the number of our opponents possessions. I'm not Phil so I don't know what he has in mind, but I think if he joined our team it would be because he thinks there is potential to win, so he would bring in the changes to get us to that level. Even if it is in an FO role. His basketball mind is unrivaled, and although he is not known for defense, he always preached it and made it a cornerstone of his championship squads.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 4:06 pm

Knowing that Drew was an injury plagued young'n, I'm not really counting him as a major cog to our title contending teams. Recall that it was after they got rid of Phil in 2011, that they started to showcase Drew....but in terms of the postseason, Drew really wasn't a major cog.

That being said:

2006: 15th in defensive efficiency
2007: 23rd in defenisve efficiency (yikes...no wonder Kob wanted out)
2008: 9th in defensive efficiency
2009: 5th in defensive efficiency
2010: 5th in defensive efficiency
2011: 6th in defensive efficiency (this is when Drew started making major advancements)

So for a team that had Kobe, Pau and Fish as major cogs, I think Phil's teams really never get enough defensive credit. He and his coaching staff (ie Rambis) did a hell of a job.

Just wanted to put that out there, cause Phil did bring the D, even though he's largely known for the tri.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby karacha on Wed May 22, 2013 4:12 pm

But mostly Rambis. Phil did not do much on D. Per Kobe, of course.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Oops, forgot to add the postseason stats:

2006: 11th
2007: 7th
2008: 5th
2009: 3rd
2010: 4th
2011: 3rd

Now imagine Dwight playing for Phil? Even at less than 100, this year was a blown chance for Dwight and this team.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby revgen on Wed May 22, 2013 4:36 pm

Chillbongo wrote:Rev, is there a realistic possibility of getting a Williams or Rondo for Pau? Celtics are high on Bradley, but no way Rondo is available for Pau.

I read somewhere it was confirmed the cap will be ~$65M this season. If we wait until deadline, teams will know we are pressured and try to low-ball us. I think Lowry is decent because he's a play maker, he's younger, and can stay in front of guys. I see where you're going with the elite guard idea and think it's great, just didn't think that it was possible.

No I agreed that possessions increase turnovers, and so that's why we should reduce possessions. The other reason is it would in turn reduce the number of our opponents possessions. I'm not Phil so I don't know what he has in mind, but I think if he joined our team it would be because he thinks there is potential to win, so he would bring in the changes to get us to that level. Even if it is in an FO role. His basketball mind is unrivaled, and although he is not known for defense, he always preached it and made it a cornerstone of his championship squads.


No. It's not releastic. I don't see Rondo or Williams coming here for Nash. Ditto with Pau for Rondo or Williams.That's why I don't see any reason to trade Nash. We need an elite guard with Kobe coming back from injury. Nash is the best choice unless a better choice is available.

I agree. The higher cap is only going to hurt us as far as trading Pau goes. I like Lowery too if Kobe was healthy. But he's not. We need a leader like Nash. Lowry is a Robin for a Batman. 2nd fiddle material.

I hope he has something in mind beyond offense. That's all I ask. I don't want to watch another season of JW, Rambis, Horry, and Miller yacking about our bad defense.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby OX1947 on Wed May 22, 2013 6:45 pm

If the Salary Cap goes up to 65 million this year, chances it goes up another million or so next year might be realistic. Let's say for the sake of argument, the cap goes up to 67 million next year. Lakers are looking at 58 million in cap space for 2014. That is if Howard doesnt come back. Things could get interesting but who knows who's going to be a free agent in their prime next year.
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby Rooscooter on Wed May 22, 2013 7:07 pm

So..... Is Phil done coaching now?
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Re: REITERATING: Phil Jackson says he's done coaching (Pg. 7)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:13 pm

Rooscooter wrote:So..... Is Phil done coaching now?

It is BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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