Free Agent Frenzy: Lakers Work Out Beasley (408)

Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby LakerFan1235 on Mon May 21, 2012 9:03 pm

kobe ( I hope those idiots out there stop saying amnesty Kobe. You just sound stupid.)
Bynum (90% of his blow ups have been media driven).
artest (just don't come back next season fat again)
Jordan hill (for cheap)
Ebanks maybe
Goudelock
sessions (let's see what he can do with a full camp and season).

Listen, I know Pau has been inconsistent, but you do NOT trade this guy unless we get some equal value.
And after that, scrap EVERYONE else
Every time I begin to ask, "Is he really as great as I think he is?" ...He proves that he is.
Every time I begin to wonder...He proves it...That is why I won't lose hope in him.
You know who I am talking about.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby crazylakerfanforlife on Mon May 21, 2012 9:04 pm

It's going to be hard to rebuild with no first round picks and the new cba kicking in.

Are the lakers willing to pay the luxury tax for 3 more years?
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby khmrP on Mon May 21, 2012 9:07 pm

LakerFan1235 wrote:kobe ( I hope those idiots out there stop saying amnesty Kobe. You just sound stupid.)
Bynum (90% of his blow ups have been media driven).
artest (just don't come back next season fat again)
Jordan hill (for cheap)
Ebanks maybe
Goudelock
sessions (let's see what he can do with a full camp and season).

Listen, I know Pau has been inconsistent, but you do NOT trade this guy unless we get some equal value.
And after that, scrap EVERYONE else


you can't expect equal value for a 31 yr old making nearly 20mill/yr, get those homer glasses off....and Bynum is a baby, not media driven.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby Tobias Funke on Mon May 21, 2012 9:16 pm

I want to keep those guys that show up every night to play, good game or bad. Dont need to point them out.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby I Am Cornholio on Mon May 21, 2012 9:23 pm

24K GOLD wrote:Kobe
Bynum
Artest
Hill

everyone is not safe.

I love kobe but I think we should trade or amnesty him because his contract will make it hard to keep him.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby trodgers on Mon May 21, 2012 9:27 pm

I Am Cornholio wrote:
24K GOLD wrote:Kobe
Bynum
Artest
Hill

everyone is not safe.

I love kobe but I think we should trade or amnesty him because his contract will make it hard to keep him.

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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby LakerFan1235 on Mon May 21, 2012 9:27 pm

khmrP wrote:
LakerFan1235 wrote:kobe ( I hope those idiots out there stop saying amnesty Kobe. You just sound stupid.)
Bynum (90% of his blow ups have been media driven).
artest (just don't come back next season fat again)
Jordan hill (for cheap)
Ebanks maybe
Goudelock
sessions (let's see what he can do with a full camp and season).

Listen, I know Pau has been inconsistent, but you do NOT trade this guy unless we get some equal value.
And after that, scrap EVERYONE else


you can't expect equal value for a 31 yr old making nearly 20mill/yr, get those homer glasses off....and Bynum is a baby, not media driven.

He is a center who's game doesn't depend on athleticism. 31 isn't really that old. Look at what KG has been doing at his age. Pau is still a top 5 PF let's be honest. We just can't settle in a trade, and I don't think our front office will.
Every time I begin to ask, "Is he really as great as I think he is?" ...He proves that he is.
Every time I begin to wonder...He proves it...That is why I won't lose hope in him.
You know who I am talking about.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby scheven on Mon May 21, 2012 9:28 pm

Bynum for D12 needs to happen. Gasol for 2 decent shooters and a PF with a perimeter game.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby XXIV on Mon May 21, 2012 9:31 pm

scheven wrote:Bynum for D12 needs to happen. Gasol for 2 decent shooters and a PF with a perimeter game.


D12 doesn't want to come here, why do people keep forcing that trade idea...
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby 24K GOLD on Mon May 21, 2012 10:05 pm

Let's stop with the D12 infatuation. He is not franchise material, aside from his charisma which also should be dried up by now.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby jlkr on Mon May 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Gasol is gone. Team isn't paying that much lux tax for a team that's not currently a Finals contender. Hope they can get a starter back plus 1 or 2 serviceable role players and a TPE which won't be used.

No way Gasol outbound can get the Lakers a lottery pick, no one will trade young for old like that. Only Bynum could fetch a lottery pick and then I'd only send him out for Anthony Davis and filler. Short of that, there's no trading Bynum for Howard, I don't like Howard anymore, only trade Bynum if there's something really really good coming back.

I would still have that chat with Kobe, tell him team is rebuilding again and ask him if he wants to be part of that.

I still don't like Brown, but I'm willing to give him a full summer and a full training camp. Mitch while you're flipping pieces around please get some decent shooters to space the floor.

Keepers: Kobe, Bynum, Hill, MWP. That's it, everyone else on the block. I suppose they could amnesty Blake. Hill is something of a gamble; he didn't work out that well for Houston, but he showed promise here and just maybe he can improve on that.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Mon May 21, 2012 10:16 pm

Well for starters, Lakerjones, that guy is the most polite member here. Doc Brown, fksteveblake and bystander are near the top for their constant and consistent LOLs, and I really like gcclaker and TIME as mods and Ras as our admin. Obviously I'm on the list because well...it's me. I'd like to keep puffy around for WMC, Rock for Twitter and Cachook for highlights. revgen is a coin flip because I dunno if we'll be able to stay under the "Bynum praise cap". In short, this is NOT going to be easy.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby TIME on Mon May 21, 2012 10:22 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:Well for starters, Lakerjones, that guy is the most polite member here. Doc Brown, fksteveblake and bystander are near the top for their constant and consistent LOLs, and I really like gcclaker and TIME as mods and Ras as our admin. Obviously I'm on the list because well...it's me. I'd like to keep puffy around for WMC, Rock for Twitter and Cachook for highlights. revgen is a coin flip because I dunno if we'll be able to stay under the "Bynum praise cap". In short, this is NOT going to be easy.


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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby Finwë on Mon May 21, 2012 10:23 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:Well for starters, Lakerjones, that guy is the most polite member here. Doc Brown, fksteveblake and bystander are near the top for their constant and consistent LOLs, and I really like gcclaker and TIME as mods and Ras as our admin. Obviously I'm on the list because well...it's me. I'd like to keep puffy around for WMC, Rock for Twitter and Cachook for highlights. revgen is a coin flip because I dunno if we'll be able to stay under the "Bynum praise cap". In short, this is NOT going to be easy.

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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby 24K GOLD on Mon May 21, 2012 10:24 pm

I'd like to lead the pack in the Troll Andrew Bynum rogue group.

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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby L4L on Mon May 21, 2012 10:26 pm

If I was Mitch, I'd truly consider moving Bynum. Sessions was the right idea, but his inability to hit a three made him hard to play for significant minutes. I'd love to see how this team could operate with a point guard that had the talent and athleticism to run the break and get in the paint, but also the ability to space the floor from three.

As Ebanks improves, a player like this would allow our second unit, minus Kobe, to actually run. A few years back, we were able to squeeze some productivity out of the bench mob, that we might not otherwise have gotten, by speeding up the pace. It also made us one of the best offenses in the entire league due to our versatility. Admittedly, Odom was a big part of that. Gasol is actually fairly athletic compared to many centers, though. He's definitely capable of running when needed. In half-court situations, or really any time, this type of unit could still run a lot of PnR to emphasize the new found strength at PG and to keep the offense productive in stretches where Bryant was sitting.

Murphy fell out of favor and I don't think he's a great fit next to Gasol, but playing an athletic stretch four, not a freak but just athletic enough to hedge and recover effectively, would allow Bryant to get low post touches without destroying the spacing due to Pau's ability to space the floor from the high post. I think this could effectively elongate Bryant's career as well as vastly improve the efficiency of "Kobe Ball" in crunch time which we always seem to go to one way or another. There aren't more than a handful of perimeter players who can realistically handle Bryant on the block.

I thought that the main problems with the team this year came down to the poor spacing and the inability to defend the PnR effectively. I know of a few posters, or maybe just one, who will protest to the contrary, but I don't think Bynum will ever be a very good pick and roll defender. Frankly, Gasol isn't usually very good either, but he is both faster and more agile. I think his tools are more suited to the task. In the past, we've played Odom or Hill fairly significant minutes because both are/were athletic enough to do a better job. When our other bigs were put in PnR, we've relied on the inefficiency of mid-range jumpers. Westbrook hasn't been the first PG to burn this strategy.

I thought the other glaring issue was the poor spacing which was due primarily, of course, to our inability to hit the three. That said, I do think that Kobe's game is severely hindered by having both Gasol and Bynum on the floor at the same time. There are only so many sets you can use when you need one big next to the rim, one around the paint, all while a guard is trying to post up. Undeniably, our best offense was always with something like Shooter/Shooter/Bryant/Odom/Gasol and I truly believe spacing was the primary reason that was the case. We're no longer running the triangle exclusively, but a mid-post, pinch-post, and low-post Kobe iso's are still our best offensive options. If teams don't double him from there, he'll put up 30+ on 45%+ every single game. With Gasol AND Bynum in the game, it's almost impossible to get him those kinds of touches without overloading the weak side. Whenever we do that, teams just go to that quasi-zone, pack the paint, and dare Kobe to drive into 3-4 guys. The Celtics wrote the blue print nearly five years ago and now that our perimeter shooting is even worse and Kobe's athleticism is declining, it is even more effective. We might be able to fix this with better three point shooting to some degree, but with both Bynum AND Gasol on the floor with Kobe, unless we send Pau to the corner which, in all fairness, did happen a couple times this year, teams will always look to pack the paint against the Lakers.

This brings me back around to the beginning. This Lakers team is very, very talented and I honestly don't believe there is THAT much that separates us from a team like OKC. I truly believe many of you are severely overreacting. Something has to be done, though. I don't personally believe this team count on internal improvement. A "feed the bigs first and always" identity doesn't suit a Kobe Bryant led team in my humble opinion. While Kobe can still play at an elite level, and he can when he doesn't catch the ball at 20+ feet from the rim, I believe the dynamic and identity of the team should be constructed to emphasize his amazing skill set. Currently, as it stands, I don't believe it does. Really, I don't think the dynamic maximizes ANY of our talent. If we're going to do anything this off-season, I believe we should break up the twin tower dynamic.

And the tower I'd look to move first is Andrew Bynum.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby Doc Brown on Mon May 21, 2012 10:40 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:Well for starters, Lakerjones, that guy is the most polite member here. Doc Brown, fksteveblake and bystander are near the top for their constant and consistent LOLs, and I really like gcclaker and TIME as mods and Ras as our admin. Obviously I'm on the list because well...it's me. I'd like to keep puffy around for WMC, Rock for Twitter and Cachook for highlights. revgen is a coin flip because I dunno if we'll be able to stay under the "Bynum praise cap". In short, this is NOT going to be easy.


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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby Ludachris on Mon May 21, 2012 10:40 pm

Here's a crazy idea - why not follow the recipe of the remaining contenders and get more athletic, try to run more. I don't think the strategy of two highly paid 7 footers is going to work any more (we know Pau will likely be traded this summer, though I wouldn't mind keeping him). It makes you slow. Maybe Bynum, as good as he is, isn't the right player to build around. It seems like it makes more sense to have a solid center (like Perkins) who can set screens, play defense, and rebound so long as you have a solid wing and perimeter players. Have the majority of the money spent on the SG and PG positions and either the SF or PF position. Someone like Iguodala or Granger - I know, why would those teams trade either of those guys for Gasol or Bynum, but I think there's a deal like that which can be made.

We can likely get a lot for Bynum alone, and a lot more for him and Gasol along with some other pieces to surround Kobe with more athleticism for years to come. The trick will be to find a willing trade partner(s) and remain under the cap - which is very tough these days. Yes, this is blasphemy to some, but take a good look at what the other teams look like. Maybe it's time to change the philosophy and not put all our eggs in the big men basket while the more athletic run circles around us. I like the way San Antonio and OKC are constructed. Granted, you can't really get that all through trades, but we have some good pieces to work with, so that helps. And quite a few teams are looking for quality big men.
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby eltoro on Mon May 21, 2012 10:45 pm

Well, Shaq and Barkley were saying that either Gasol or Bynum had to go. Kenny agreed too. The twin towers, two big man combo, just doesn't work in today's NBA if you want to be a championship team.

Having Gasol and Bynum make the Lakers a slower and less athletic team. That was Barkley's point.
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Re: When the overhaul happens, who would you like to keep?

Postby Lakerjones on Mon May 21, 2012 10:51 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:Well for starters, Lakerjones, that guy is the most polite member here. Doc Brown, fksteveblake and bystander are near the top for their constant and consistent LOLs, and I really like gcclaker and TIME as mods and Ras as our admin. Obviously I'm on the list because well...it's me. I'd like to keep puffy around for WMC, Rock for Twitter and Cachook for highlights. revgen is a coin flip because I dunno if we'll be able to stay under the "Bynum praise cap". In short, this is NOT going to be easy.


:man10: :man10: :man10:

^^ Nice one, Matt! :bow:
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby ramsay13 on Mon May 21, 2012 10:52 pm

Complete overhaul!
Wait for the next great to appear :jam2:
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby Lakerjones on Mon May 21, 2012 10:58 pm

L4L wrote:If I was Mitch, I'd truly consider moving Bynum. Sessions was the right idea, but his inability to hit a three made him hard to play for significant minutes. I'd love to see how this team could operate with a point guard that had the talent and athleticism to run the break and get in the paint, but also the ability to space the floor from three.

As Ebanks improves, a player like this would allow our second unit, minus Kobe, to actually run. A few years back, we were able to squeeze some productivity out of the bench mob, that we might not otherwise have gotten, by speeding up the pace. It also made us one of the best offenses in the entire league due to our versatility. Admittedly, Odom was a big part of that. Gasol is actually fairly athletic compared to many centers, though. He's definitely capable of running when needed. In half-court situations, or really any time, this type of unit could still run a lot of PnR to emphasize the new found strength at PG and to keep the offense productive in stretches where Bryant was sitting.

Murphy fell out of favor and I don't think he's a great fit next to Gasol, but playing an athletic stretch four, not a freak but just athletic enough to hedge and recover effectively, would allow Bryant to get low post touches without destroying the spacing due to Pau's ability to space the floor from the high post. I think this could effectively elongate Bryant's career as well as vastly improve the efficiency of "Kobe Ball" in crunch time which we always seem to go to one way or another. There aren't more than a handful of perimeter players who can realistically handle Bryant on the block.

I thought that the main problems with the team this year came down to the poor spacing and the inability to defend the PnR effectively. I know of a few posters, or maybe just one, who will protest to the contrary, but I don't think Bynum will ever be a very good pick and roll defender. Frankly, Gasol isn't usually very good either, but he is both faster and more agile. I think his tools are more suited to the task. In the past, we've played Odom or Hill fairly significant minutes because both are/were athletic enough to do a better job. When our other bigs were put in PnR, we've relied on the inefficiency of mid-range jumpers. Westbrook hasn't been the first PG to burn this strategy.

I thought the other glaring issue was the poor spacing which was due primarily, of course, to our inability to hit the three. That said, I do think that Kobe's game is severely hindered by having both Gasol and Bynum on the floor at the same time. There are only so many sets you can use when you need one big next to the rim, one around the paint, all while a guard is trying to post up. Undeniably, our best offense was always with something like Shooter/Shooter/Bryant/Odom/Gasol and I truly believe spacing was the primary reason that was the case. We're no longer running the triangle exclusively, but a mid-post, pinch-post, and low-post Kobe iso's are still our best offensive options. If teams don't double him from there, he'll put up 30+ on 45%+ every single game. With Gasol AND Bynum in the game, it's almost impossible to get him those kinds of touches without overloading the weak side. Whenever we do that, teams just go to that quasi-zone, pack the paint, and dare Kobe to drive into 3-4 guys. The Celtics wrote the blue print nearly five years ago and now that our perimeter shooting is even worse and Kobe's athleticism is declining, it is even more effective. We might be able to fix this with better three point shooting to some degree, but with both Bynum AND Gasol on the floor with Kobe, unless we send Pau to the corner which, in all fairness, did happen a couple times this year, teams will always look to pack the paint against the Lakers.

This brings me back around to the beginning. This Lakers team is very, very talented and I honestly don't believe there is THAT much that separates us from a team like OKC. I truly believe many of you are severely overreacting. Something has to be done, though. I don't personally believe this team count on internal improvement. A "feed the bigs first and always" identity doesn't suit a Kobe Bryant led team in my humble opinion. While Kobe can still play at an elite level, and he can when he doesn't catch the ball at 20+ feet from the rim, I believe the dynamic and identity of the team should be constructed to emphasize his amazing skill set. Currently, as it stands, I don't believe it does. Really, I don't think the dynamic maximizes ANY of our talent. If we're going to do anything this off-season, I believe we should break up the twin tower dynamic.

And the tower I'd look to move first is Andrew Bynum.


^^ Shocking thought, but I kind of agree with L4L and I've been thinking along those same lines over these playoffs. Even though guys like Bynum are incredibly rare now, with the attitude he's been giving lately and also largely because of his trade value, I might be tempted to move him before Pau.

I think Kobe and Pau can still play together at a high level with another star type player and perhaps one more bench scorer.

The one guy I'd try to get now is Deron Williams. Clearly Jersey won't trade him for Pau, but Bynum might be a different story.

If that didn't work out, probably I'd go back to moving Pau.
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby c.Lin on Mon May 21, 2012 11:08 pm

Great post, L4L. I agree that we desperately need shooters on the A squad. Sessions can be effective with his speed and ability to penetrate, but he needs the ball in his hands, which doesn't always work with Kobe as the focal point. His inability to hit the three definitely hurt us in trying to spread the floor.

I think it was difficult for Pau to be aggressive in Mike Brown's offensive scheme. He was basically limited to being a jumpshooter/passer. If used correctly, he still has the skillset to be effective. The question is if he will be aggressive on a consistent basis, especially in the playoffs.

The same can be said about Bynum. He's big, but has to be spoon-fed the ball in great scoring position. He's denied position too easily and will just give up if he's not getting the ball. Couple that with his piss-poor attitude, and tendency to disengage from the game completely, he would be the major piece I would look to get rid of. We can't get one-for-one value outside of Dwight Howard, but I think if management digs deep, it can find great value from a team who needs a big center.
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby Finwë on Mon May 21, 2012 11:21 pm

Lakerjones wrote:^^ Shocking thought, but I kind of agree with L4L and I've been thinking along those same lines over these playoffs. Even though guys like Bynum are incredibly rare now, with the attitude he's been giving lately and also largely because of his trade value, I might be tempted to move him before Pau.

I think Kobe and Pau can still play together at a high level with another star type player and perhaps one more bench scorer.

The one guy I'd try to get now is Deron Williams. Clearly Jersey won't trade him for Pau, but Bynum might be a different story.

If that didn't work out, probably I'd go back to moving Pau.

I agree, about Deron and about Bynum, but I think Pau has to go.
He can be very valuable, but his inconsistent effort has been too much to take. It's meant two early playoff exits in a row.
His contract is awful, and I wouldn't want to take such a big risk betting on a sudden reversion to 2008-2010 Pau. I don't see that happening at all, I really think he's lost the drive and the passion required.

He'll always be appreciated for his awesome run, helping us into 3 straight finals, and 2 straight titles.
His attitude and class will always be respected. Great person.
But, he needs to go. There is no going back.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Offseason Overhaul Discussion (who would you like to keep?)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon May 21, 2012 11:25 pm

The pb we have is our 7 footer who fits today's NBA game has to go since he failed in the playoffs twice in a row ...

Bynum is just too slow for today's game AND doesn't put much effort on top of that ... is often outrunned by his opponent , too slow to hedge and recover on the pick n roll D , lacks athleticism and explosivness around the basket ...

We just have a huge personel pb imo who doesn't fit today's game and our difference (size) just isn't good enough to counter it
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