Roster Improvements: addition by subtractions

Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Weezy on Wed May 08, 2013 5:19 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
Armani wrote:Man... Garcia, Buddinger... all good role-players, but this won't get us back to title contention next year. We might just be screwed until 2014.


Why wouldn't it?


People seem to be under the impression that you need 3 or 4 stars to win now or something, because of Miami I guess, when in reality the teams that have 2 are doing just fine, and I know from recent discussions you believe as I do 2 is enough if the rest of the team is full of really good role players. You need guys that know their role, know their place, and just do their jobs.

The season with Malone and Payton guys bickered about roles, wanting things their way. This season all 5 starters acted like they had to sacrifice to play together, rather than just doing their jobs from the start. When it was Kobe and Pau the rest of the team knew their roles. Fisher, Odom, Drew, Ariza/Artest, Farmar, Shannon, Sasha, DJ, Powell, these guys knew their roles more often than not and didn't complain. I think you still only need 2 stars, maybe 1 borderline all-star, and the rest solid role players.

So while I don't think Budinger and Garcia alone make us title contenders, that sort of direction IMO is the right way to go, not 3 aging former all-stars plus Kobe and Dwight. I think moves people here have suggested, like a team of Lowry,Kobe, Granger (assuming he's healthy), Hill (or another cheap PF or SF that would make Granger a stretch 4) and Dwight is a much better direction than Nash, Kobe, MWP, Pau, Dwight.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Doc Brown on Wed May 08, 2013 7:55 pm

Agreed Weezy.

Role players --> Keep you in games and can get you through the regular season, but cannot routinely win you games in crunch time and the playoffs (Sans Horry and Fisher who are two of the most clutch role players ever)

Star players --> Step up in crunch time when role players do most of the work in the 1st-3rd quarters.

Without role players, your stars have to do everything the entire game and that is not a recipe for winning ball games (see this years Lakers). Without star players, role players are put in a tough position of having to player bigger than themselves for multiple games. It's why teams like Denver will always flop in the playoffs. When push comes to shove they don't have that star that can close games.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Armani on Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 pm

We have the unique situation where the role-players disappear in the 2nd half of the year - like Meeks... and the star players can't stay on court. Wheeeee... :bang:
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby lakersin4 on Thu May 09, 2013 1:48 am

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:
@LarryCoon says Brewer, Daniels, Garcia & Delfino are possible #Lakers additions. #ESPNLANow discuss: http://es.pn/RfXDFW


LINK

Daniels? Marquis? I don't understand the interest there but would love the rest. Brewer & Delfino would be an amazing combo to add. I'm really happy to hear Brewer mentioned in connection to us, he was at the top of my list of guys that could be available cheap. Surprised we aren't interested in Foye. He could be the floor stretcher that Meeks was supposed to & he's not a bad defender either.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Phil XI on Thu May 09, 2013 5:47 am

I heard the Coon interview and it was all in the context of who 'might' be avail for what LA could offer (mini or vetmin), that might want to play in LA for less than others might offer, and would fill a Laker need. None of this was 'Lakers are interested'. It was pure conjecture based on availability, need, and LA's cap sitch.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby JGC on Thu May 09, 2013 7:18 am

Weezy wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
Armani wrote:Man... Garcia, Buddinger... all good role-players, but this won't get us back to title contention next year. We might just be screwed until 2014.


Why wouldn't it?


People seem to be under the impression that you need 3 or 4 stars to win now or something, because of Miami I guess, when in reality the teams that have 2 are doing just fine, and I know from recent discussions you believe as I do 2 is enough if the rest of the team is full of really good role players. You need guys that know their role, know their place, and just do their jobs.

The season with Malone and Payton guys bickered about roles, wanting things their way. This season all 5 starters acted like they had to sacrifice to play together, rather than just doing their jobs from the start. When it was Kobe and Pau the rest of the team knew their roles. Fisher, Odom, Drew, Ariza/Artest, Farmar, Shannon, Sasha, DJ, Powell, these guys knew their roles more often than not and didn't complain. I think you still only need 2 stars, maybe 1 borderline all-star, and the rest solid role players.

So while I don't think Budinger and Garcia alone make us title contenders, that sort of direction IMO is the right way to go, not 3 aging former all-stars plus Kobe and Dwight. I think moves people here have suggested, like a team of Lowry,Kobe, Granger (assuming he's healthy), Hill (or another cheap PF or SF that would make Granger a stretch 4) and Dwight is a much better direction than Nash, Kobe, MWP, Pau, Dwight.


I agree with this. The problem is whether or not you can re-tool all of those role players THIS offseason which I don't believe you can.

Then, separately, you've got a coach who wants to run all day, Kobe doesn't want to run all day. A coach who doesn't like going inside, and what should be the league's best center (although Marc Gasol might be my pick even with D12 healthy) so there's the question mark of whether we even have the right coach and right core players paired together going in to next season.

Personally, I don't think Kobe+Dwight can get it done anymore unless you have the perfect group of role players around them. Dwight doesn't step up enough for a #2, and Kobe is just too old to run the offense through him nearly every possession (IMO). You have to have another player who can take the pressure off of Kobe and then he has to be willing to defer which still hasn't happened yet. (And by defer, I mean, defer on some possessions, not concede his role as leader).

I think it would be good to add some cheap role players, give it another shot, and start the re-tooling process in 2014.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 7:53 am

Matt Barnes was on ESPN 710 and said that the Lakers & Clippers are his only choices to play at next season....

LINK

I hope we get him, for a annual salary of 2-3M which will be enough to get him IMO.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Thu May 09, 2013 8:08 am

Interesting names that Coon pointed out that could be available. We need a couple of guys for very specific things that would improve this team. Most notably, defense & athleticism, IMO. Delfino would be a welcome addition, though.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby abeer3 on Thu May 09, 2013 8:22 am

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:Matt Barnes was on ESPN 710 and said that the Lakers & Clippers are his only choices to play at next season....

LINK

I hope we get him, for a annual salary of 2-3M which will be enough to get him IMO.


why doesn't he want to play for HOUSTON?!!!
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby last stand on Thu May 09, 2013 8:27 am

I hate matt barnes. Stay on the clippers
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 8:28 am

If the Lakers can get Barnes and maybe add another back-up SG like Foye or CJ Watson it would be a solid additions to the bench... but the Lakers must get rid of the other scrubs on the bench first.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Savory Griddles on Thu May 09, 2013 8:38 am

I'm not sure Barnes is really going to help much. I think we should be focusing all our efforts at trading Nash to free up that 9 million in 2014, and getting a young pg like DJ Augustin or maybe Darren Collison. I still think he can play and might flourish in D'Antoni's system.

I do like Nash. I'm not blaming him for his injuries. He's a warrior. But I don't want a gimpy Steve Nash to be the reason we can't sign a good supporting piece in 2014.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 8:47 am

JGC wrote:Personally, I don't think Kobe+Dwight can get it done anymore unless you have the perfect group of role players around them. Dwight doesn't step up enough for a #2, and Kobe is just too old to run the offense through him nearly every possession (IMO). You have to have another player who can take the pressure off of Kobe and then he has to be willing to defer which still hasn't happened yet. (And by defer, I mean, defer on some possessions, not concede his role as leader).

I think it would be good to add some cheap role players, give it another shot, and start the re-tooling process in 2014.


Personally, I don't think Kobe is that Important to the Lakers, anymore... especially coming off a Torn Ach surgery.... the expectations on Kobe next year will not have much weight... because he's most likely gonna average 12-15PPG most likely... so by next year everyone should hope that Howard is ready to be the #1 option... if not... we are gonna be Lottery-bound... which is why I'm hoping that the Lakers have a plan to trade Gasol for a star wing player... or good rotational players.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Doc Brown on Thu May 09, 2013 8:57 am

Kobe isn't important to the Lakers anymore?

Alright what board did you get banned from before, so I can talk to the mods there and see if they can give you a second chance.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Savory Griddles on Thu May 09, 2013 8:59 am

By the way guys, this whole retooling process in 2014 isn't going to be all that spectacular. The only way it works out for us is if Lebron opts out of his contract. Bosh, Wade and Carmelo can also opt out, but are any of those three going to put us over the top paired with (maybe) Dwight? And I see no way that Carmelo or Wade leave their respective teams.

Other than those guys all the other free agents are well past their prime (Kobe, Dirk, Gasol, Granger) or are second tier stars like Rudy Gay.

This is why I really don't think the Dwight signing thing is such a slam dunk. Short of Lebron opting out and signing with the Lakers, there is no way we will be able to put a complementary piece with him anywhere near the skill of Harden.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 9:00 am

I'm talking in a statistical sense that he's not Important anymore, but as a Leader? Absolutely..... he's not gonna carry the team as he used to...
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu May 09, 2013 9:03 am

:man10:

12-15 ppg? The man can do that in his sleep. Please.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 9:06 am

So you do have hope that he's gonna successfully gonna come from the torn ach???? I hope so.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu May 09, 2013 9:27 am

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:So you do have hope that he's gonna successfully gonna come from the torn ach???? I hope so.


There's been multiple athletes who have had successful torn achilles surgery in their later stages in there career and still perform.

Most notably for basketball, Dominique Wilkins.

Even seemingly favorable comparisons don't paint a very encouraging picture for Kobe, who's 34 years old. The experience of Dominique Wilkins—who ruptured his Achilles in the 1991-1992 season, at age 32, and came back to average 30 points the following year—has been invoked several times over the past few days. Wilkins was also an aging, athletic slasher, and he came back to play at an All-Star level for four more years, and at a high level for two more after that. It's an encouraging comp for Kobe fans. Except: It's not, really.

At the time of his injury, Dominique had played 27,482 minutes over 10 seasons (playoffs included). Kobe, now in his 17th year, has logged 54,041 minutes. He's just two years older than Wilkins was at the time of his injury, but he has twice as much pro basketball mileage on his legs. And that doesn't even take into account Kobe's slogs through international competition (another 37 games started).


Isiah Thomas' career ended on a similar injury, played more than Dominique, and was also a smaller player.

I'm not a doctor, and I'm not Kobe. So I can't say what kind of recovery Kobe will actually have.

But just knowing the will and strength of a player like Kobe, I doubt he's going down without a fight. The man has broken fingers, noses, ankles, knee procedures and still does the things he did when he came into the league, if not better.

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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Phil XI on Thu May 09, 2013 10:02 am

Savory Griddles wrote:By the way guys, this whole retooling process in 2014 isn't going to be all that spectacular. The only way it works out for us is if Lebron opts out of his contract. Bosh, Wade and Carmelo can also opt out, but are any of those three going to put us over the top paired with (maybe) Dwight? And I see no way that Carmelo or Wade leave their respective teams.

Other than those guys all the other free agents are well past their prime (Kobe, Dirk, Gasol, Granger) or are second tier stars like Rudy Gay.

This is why I really don't think the Dwight signing thing is such a slam dunk. Short of Lebron opting out and signing with the Lakers, there is no way we will be able to put a complementary piece with him anywhere near the skill of Harden.

Lebron is the only UFA that I'd be interested in. Paul George and John Wall are RFA's that LA should throw an offer sheet at in Lebron doesn't opt out or doesn't come. That's is it. Otherwise, save most of the $ for 2015 and Love, and use a bit of '14 money on a few role players like Mayo/Thabo, and keep Kobe for another year if interested.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Weezy on Thu May 09, 2013 10:04 am

I don't want Barnes back. As soon as he gets here he'll get inured or start missing most of his wide open 3's again, no thanks.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby The Rock on Thu May 09, 2013 10:17 am

If we have Kobe (lets say the 18 ppg version of himself) + Howard + 2 above average players + Hill + Clark + 2014 draft pick I think we should be able to compete for a title

Howard
Stretch 4
Luol Deng or Granger or Iggy (I hope he opts in for 2013/2014)
Kobe
Vasquez

Backups

Hill, Clark, 2014 draft pick probably a shooter + backups CJ Miles + Stuckey (or some 2014 FA who are gonna be squeezed out because of the market)

This type of team should be able to compete for a title.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 10:50 am

That team looks real solid, Rock.... but I don't think it's realistic.... unless there is some master plan we don't know about.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby Savory Griddles on Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 am

The Rock wrote:If we have Kobe (lets say the 18 ppg version of himself) + Howard + 2 above average players + Hill + Clark + 2014 draft pick I think we should be able to compete for a title

Howard
Stretch 4
Luol Deng or Granger or Iggy (I hope he opts in for 2013/2014)
Kobe
Vasquez

Backups

Hill, Clark, 2014 draft pick probably a shooter + backups CJ Miles + Stuckey (or some 2014 FA who are gonna be squeezed out because of the market)

This type of team should be able to compete for a title.


How did we get Vasquez? I don't see the Pelicans letting him go.
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Re: Roster Improvement: Free Agents Now and Later?

Postby The Rock on Thu May 09, 2013 1:53 pm

^ Hes not an All star but he's above average sort of like a younger Jose Calderon. I think they'd rather let him go than pay $10mil/yr to someone who's probably not gonna help them get to the playoffs. They're already stuck with Eric Gordon's albatross contract which they sorely regret
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