Should MDA be fired?

Should MDA be fired?

Yes, he ran Kobe to the ground. Coaches need to control the player's minutes.
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81%
No, its not his fault. He was just respecting Kobe's will.
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Total votes : 104

Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Tobias Funke on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Doc Brown wrote:MDA is playing Nash 0.9 more minutes then he did last year for Phoenix. He must be running him into the ground. This is Nash's second lowest minute total per game in the last 13 years.

Damn that MDA for running him into the ground.


I haven't seen anyone who thinks Pringles was forcing Kobe to play when he wanted to rest. Most people are upset that he didn't have the stones to perform his duties as the coach stop Kobe from overworking himself (and judging his quotes he didn't really want to stop Kobe anyways).

And besides, Kobe's our top guy and has far more mileage than anyone else on the team. Making sure he got proper rest this season should have been a top priority, but "Coach" was more than happy to skip over that.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby EQualizer on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:18 pm

I think everyone needs to remember that every time you step onto the court - doesn't matter the duration you're putting yourself at risk for getting injured. People rupture/tear all kinds of things playing sports in high school, college, professional leagues.

What is so special about 48 minutes to your body anyways? Kobe, especially having played bball all his life/whatever other injuries he was secretly nursing or had recently may have had this injury or something else happen regardless of his minutes (unless he was playing 0 minutes). It could have happened within the first five minutes of the game, in practice, in the first game of the season, with Phil as coach, maybe even 17 years ago.

I think putting the blame on MDA is a little ridiculous as well as are the conspiracy theories with the FO telling doctors to not cite overuse as a contributory factor. There's a million things that could have happened and/or contribute to him popping his tendon and they may or may not have added together to cause this. Why don't you blame Nike for making poor traction on his shoes and making him lose his balance just enough that it made his muscles tense up or something? Etc. You can go on and on.

Getting injured is an unfortunate huge risk of playing any sport or engaging in any type of physical activity. It seems like it is really hard to predict when something is going to go (at least in this day and age). Maybe in the future they'll have some sensitive tests that are cheap and can be done weekly to screen athletes for potential structural weaknesses but that obviously isn't the reality now.

borri wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^ If you follow your own thought process through then you should be pissed at the GM.... he's the one that turned down trades that would have deepened this team allowing the "older ones" more time on the bench....

I don't like MDA one bit but he's just the Conductor.... and he's playing with a Jazz quartette rather than an entire orchestra.


Never said FO isn't to blame. Never liked that we didn't use the injured players exception. That was a head scratcher....unless Antoni said he wouldn't use that player anyways, which isn't beyond the realm of reality.

Ultimately, it's the coach's job to manage players' minutes, of which Antoni failed to do miserably. Don't forget, Nash is also out.

It's not coincidence that our oldest players are injured this late in the season. And its not like we haven't complained about the PT of our olderst players all year long.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Tobias Funke on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:22 pm

EQualizer wrote:What is so special about 48 minutes to your body anyways?


Alot of your post isn't unreasonable, but I hope you aren't serious with this....
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:02 pm

Doc Brown wrote:^^^I think Roo is referring to before this season and not pulling the trigger on any smaller deals for Pau or getting a bench. Not necessarily why we aren't adding players during the season.

We've seen multiple trades speculated for Pau and we haven't pulled the trigger. The payroll would be the same, but we would have 2-3 players spreading that money around, rather than 1 that just recently decided to play like his usual self.


Roo is just referring to the fact that for just about the entire Kobe era we've never invested in depth or a bench. In years past Phil was the one who wouldn't play youngsters and really wasn't interested in developing talent.

Last year we changed the coach but seemed to double down on the philosophy that we can win a championship with 4 great players supported by 2 decent ones and a community college team behind that. Getting Nash combined with the age/milage on Pau and Kobe was a recipe for disaster.

We made a money move with Fisher and we lucked into a decent big in Hill. Nice move but I don't believe for one minute Hill was anything more than expiring baggage when we made that deal. We turned down a deal with Minnesota that could have netted us Beasley. While not exactly a great player he is the type of player that can give Kobe a rest and score while playing a couple positions in the front court. 300K was the difference and the fact that we would have to most likely resign Beasley. Similar "non-move" last year... Petrus, Robinson among others were available. None great players but all much better than what we have getting splinters on our bench.

I'd like to believe that it's at the top but if you actually look at it closely it's a re-occuring issue during the last 10 years. We've paid some real mediocre players much more than we would by picking up veteran FA along the way. My guess is that Jimmy doesn't know his azz from a hot rock in this regard and it's up to Mitch.... but hey what do I know....
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:17 pm

borri wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^ If you follow your own thought process through then you should be pissed at the GM.... he's the one that turned down trades that would have deepened this team allowing the "older ones" more time on the bench....

I don't like MDA one bit but he's just the Conductor.... and he's playing with a Jazz quartette rather than an entire orchestra.


Never said FO isn't to blame. Never liked that we didn't use the injured players exception. That was a head scratcher....unless Antoni said he wouldn't use that player anyways, which isn't beyond the realm of reality.

Ultimately, it's the coach's job to manage players' minutes, of which Antoni failed to do miserably. Don't forget, Nash is also out.

It's not coincidence that our oldest players are injured this late in the season. And its not like we haven't complained about the PT of our olderst players all year long.


Granted.... no one is arguing that there has been too much playing time. What you are avoiding it seems is the fact that we have nothing behind these guys that you can't find at a local rec league. It's been that way long before MDA got here. We spend our $$ and then some on "names"..... that's worked for us in the past but this time it's a bunch of non-complementary pieces and some of them are flat out old and are breaking down. Even if we were healthy all year we'd not be a championship team. We've all seen our deficiencies and the biggest one is that we only have one player that can get his own shot.....

Pau's issues (elbow, feet etc.) have nothing to do with PT this year... his minutes are down more than 10% from last year. Howard's are down.... Nash's are up slightly (50 seconds a game).... Kobe's are up 6 seconds a game.

If you truly believe minutes are to blame here and MDA's to use of the players is the cause then....... who's our back-up 2 and back-up 3 on this team..... Can either of them create for themselves or score consistently? Can any of our "bench" do that? MDA didn't compose this team.... the players don't match his style. If you are going to bring in a coach that has a significantly different style than the what the personnel was acquired for then you need to endeavor to change the personnel to match the style. At least that's how I see it.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby JSM on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:39 pm

Doc Brown wrote:MDA is playing Nash 0.9 more minutes then he did last year for Phoenix. He must be running him into the ground. This is Nash's second lowest minute total per game in the last 13 years.

That's barely a bump in MPG, but he did average 34 MPG for the month of January, he didn't average 34 minutes a single month the season before. Typically the older a player gets you want to decrease his minutes, not increase -- even by .0001 MPG.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:58 pm

Doc, I understand what you're saying....but lets be absolutely sincere here....If you are a Phil or a Pop, wouldn't you minimize a 30+ year veteran? There is a reason why they tried to minimize veteran minutes.

So a guy like Kobe, would you think its a good idea to play him the entire game? Its really irresponsible. There is a reason his Achilles blew out at the tail end of 7 straight games where he played the majority of the game.

The facts can't be denied! Kobe shouldn't have been playing the entire game....I don't care how many injuries there were. It isn't the right approach and that is why it has NEVER been done before!

Totally irresponsible by the head coaching staff...and the FO for allowing it. Seriously... I love Mitch...but the lip service he is giving the fans is infuriating.

The FO needs to STFU! I'm tired of the PR....own up to their undeniably ridiculous decision making and make sure it never ever ever happens again!
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby lotus on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Tobias Funke wrote:
EQualizer wrote:What is so special about 48 minutes to your body anyways?


Alot of your post isn't unreasonable, but I hope you aren't serious with this....

+1
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby EQualizer on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:58 pm

It was to illustrate my viewpoint that this could have happened even with him playing 30 minutes a game. The number of minutes is arbitrary. We think 48 minutes is a lot because it symbolizes a full game but it really is a somewhat arbitrary number. What if 24 minutes a game is already way too much for Kobe? Do you get what I'm saying? So how are they supposed to minimize this? By never playing Kobe? Never letting him practice? Playing him 20 minutes a game? 25? 5? How do they know how much is too much?

Over in San Antonio Pop obviously tries to manage and minimize minutes but the injuries still happen.

lotus wrote:
Tobias Funke wrote:
EQualizer wrote:What is so special about 48 minutes to your body anyways?


Alot of your post isn't unreasonable, but I hope you aren't serious with this....

+1
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby LakerFanIam on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:15 am

Okay... I have a close friend that was actually sitting courtside next to the Lakers bench for the GS game..

He says that ,without a doubt, MDA wanted Kobe out of the game after those first injuries & Vitti was telling Kobe to come out & KOBE STRAIGHT UP SAID NO & WOULD NOT COME OUT...

Not making this up, this dude has no reason to lie...
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:19 am

^ Fair enough. But coaches are supposed to make the decision on who goes out and who stays in.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:32 am

Chillbongo wrote:^ Fair enough. But coaches are supposed to make the decision on who goes out and who stays in.

What are you going to do though? Physically grab him and shove him on the bench? Nobody was going to stop him. Mitch talked to him, the trainer and coach tried to talk to him...

It was Kobe's decision.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:21 pm

My understanding is the players don't decide that kind of thing.

Kobe reports to Mike D'Antoni.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:21 pm

My understanding is the players don't decide that kind of thing.

Kobe reports to Mike D'Antoni.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Again. Put yourself in his shoes.

What do you do? You tell me. Because if it's me, I ask him to sit down for my sake and for his and if he doesn't, I cannot do anything to stop him.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby davriver290 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:28 pm

it was an unfortunate injury. We have to get over that. Maybe Kobe's luck finally ran out? I mean he was always realtivley healthy. Just this time it didn't turn out that way...

I'm upset too, but we just gotta conitune on believing in the team and rooting for them. I'm hoping MDA continues with the style that suits us best and continues this beautiful defense we saw last night.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:51 pm

Well I guess the problem is in the context. Other coaches have gotten Kobe to listen.

Either MDA isn't the coach that can demand Kobe's respect or, only a few coaches have been able to tame Kobe because he's so damn difficult.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:54 pm

A few? I think there's only one Chill. And I'm not even sure Phil could have made him leave the game if he wanted to.

Kobe made that choice and some of the blame has to sit on his shoulders. In fact, I'd say enough blame has to sit on his shoulders that Kobe's injury should not result in D'Antoni's firing. Other factors might result in that firing, but not Kobe's injury.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Ok, but are we in agreement that it's the coaches job to decide who sits and who plays?

Kobe is on another level and is larger than life, so to speak. But come on, you're telling me Phil would have ran the minutes exactly as D'Antoni? Bologna. Of course Kobe is to blame....but at the end of the day you have coaches to make those decisions. Kobe would also go 1 on 4 every time and be pretty damn good at it and win us games. Coaches see it from a "generals" standpoint while players see it from a solider stand point.

Kobe might be the most skilled soldier of them all....but generals win the wars.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:11 pm

In general? Yes. The coach is in charge and monitors minutes. But like you pointed out, in some cases they are powerless. Kobe was an all-powerful figure in the Lakers organization. He was untouchable. Not even Mitch could keep him from playing.

And let me put it to you this way: what if D'Antoni takes Kobe out in that game? What if he forces him to sit? Then the Lakers lose... We all blame D'Antoni, right? Because Kobe wasn't out there to keep us in the game?

It's a lose-lose for D'Antoni. All I'm trying to do is point out that it's EXTREMELY unfair to put the majority blame on D'Antoni. Should he have found rest for him in that game? Sure. But if we lose and we miss the playoffs it's also his fault. So he's damned no matter what he does.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:18 pm

See that's the thing...I'm not nailing it down to one game. That GS game was the last straw that broke the camel's back....but D'Antoni has been running his minutes high ALL season.

OF COURSE Kobe is going to play. Dude would play 58 minutes if it were possible. That's not how you manage a star, even of Kobe's level. You don't see LeBron or CP3 playing those minutes. Fine, they're on "good" teams? Even Dwight Howard is playing 35MPG. No matter what it's extremely irresponsible for you to place one season's outcome on ONE individual.

It's completely unfair, unrealistic, and short-sighted to put that on Kobe, as great as he is. My point, some players want to push themselves beyond their means. That's why you have coaches. It's not Mitch's decision, even if Mitch hires the coach. It's the coaches. That's why you have coaches. My underlying point.....Jimmy - hire a coach that can demand Kobe's respect.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:23 pm

And that's D'Antoni's fault? Really, Chill?

Maybe it's Kupchak's fault for not giving the Lakers enough firepower meaning they are totally reliant on Kobe. Maybe it's Nash's fault for not trying harder to get back on the floor meaning Kobe has to control the ball more. Maybe it's Dwight's and Pau's fault because they were never quite able to carry the team when Kobe was around.
Maybe it's the Buss's fault for not quite paying enough money.

It's all the same. No one person is at fault. To try to say "D'Antoni should have taken him out and given him less minutes!" is to overlook everyone else's blame and give it to the scapegoat. Blame the easiest person to blame.

The truth is everyone is at fault here. Including Kobe and maybe especially Kobe. He knows his body better than anyone else and when he hyper extends his left knee, he should know that he needs to sit and let his body relax for a minute. He decided to push and that's his fault. D'Antoni should have sat him and that's his fault. Kupchak should have given him more help and that's his fault. The Busses should have paid more and that's their fault.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby lotus on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:33 pm

EQualizer wrote:It was to illustrate my viewpoint that this could have happened even with him playing 30 minutes a game. The number of minutes is arbitrary. We think 48 minutes is a lot because it symbolizes a full game but it really is a somewhat arbitrary number. What if 24 minutes a game is already way too much for Kobe? Do you get what I'm saying? So how are they supposed to minimize this? By never playing Kobe? Never letting him practice? Playing him 20 minutes a game? 25? 5? How do they know how much is too much?

Over in San Antonio Pop obviously tries to manage and minimize minutes but the injuries still happen.

lotus wrote:
Tobias Funke wrote:
EQualizer wrote:What is so special about 48 minutes to your body anyways?


Alot of your post isn't unreasonable, but I hope you aren't serious with this....

+1

You're not factoring in his age, games played in his career, the high level he plays at, the recent 6 or 7 string of games in which he played at least 45mins a game, and the amount of exertion he gives in every game, expecially the past 2 seasons with this bad fitting relationship between the roster and coach. There is enough evidence to make a rational argument that all of these things contributed to his achilles blow out. Of the things mentioned, they should have been in MDA's mind and caused him to decrease the negative impact by controlling Kobe's minutes, regardless of any competitive insistence by Kobe that he play as much as possible. That is akin to a boxer getting battered, but not giving up because he is a true warrior, while his corner sits there and ignores the ensuing brain damage that may result later. The only counter information you provide is that it could happen to anyone at anytime. I guess we all should be on notice then in our day to day lives. Not a lot of youth I know of blowing out achilles.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:42 pm

Real, I'm not disagreeing that the blame could go around and around. It really could. I understand how crucial it was to win these last 20 or so games of the season.

Imagine if D'Antoni had shown a little bit more responsibility before? The few games we did have everyone there. Why was Kobe playing 35-40 minutes? The games where we had Dwight and Kobe and Nash, same thing? I have been harping about his minutes all season and though a lot of our wins came through his will, was it entirely responsible decision making?

You're telling me the ONLY way we win games this year is by running Kobe that deep? No it was the easiest way. The easiest. Think about that.

Did you see our defense last night? Where was that all season? It wasn't an easy effort, but we won a damn game on the defensive end. Because we didn't have Kobe. We didn't have an easy out. Props to D'Antoni for preparing the team last night.
Last edited by Chillbongo on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Should MDA be fired?

Postby havoc33 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:43 pm

I can't believe how protective some of you are towards our coach and management. Sure Kobe has to take some of the blame, but then again, coaches are supposed to protect insanely competetive athletes from themselves to prevent these things from happening. This crazy streak of mpg should never have happened. So yeah, as for the question being raised in the topic, hell yeah Antoni should be fired. Not only for his reckless use of Kobe, but for a hundred other reasons as well. He's just a bad coach, period.
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