Steve Nash Discussion: Epidural Nation

v1n5anity · by **v1n5anity** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:11 am

therealdeal wrote::man10: at having such an adamant argument over something so awesome.

I wouldn't mind if either of those two took the shots, I have 100% faith in both of them.

I have faith in Kobe. I just have more in Nash.

nthydro · by **nthydro** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:00 pm

Vinsanity,

Of course it's a debate. I wouldn't pose the question if it wasn't. But I'd still take Kobe because like I stated, I trust him more. You're right I didn't watch Nash much since I don't have league pass. And that's why I've never SEEN him make clutch free throws. I'm not the type who goes by percentages or reputation when I analyze a player. I'm not discounting percentages completely, but theres many other variables to consider. I have to see it to believe it. Your argument was that if a player shoots a higher overall percentage then that automatically means he's a better clutch free throw shooter

That's simply not true. If you were to show me their clutch free throw stats like you did then your argument would've been more convincing. Theres no question in mind Nash is better free throw shooter in normal game situation. But the fact that I never seen him shoot clutch free throws, I'd rather take Kobe who I've witness with my own eyes. It's that simple.

Okay using Steve Blake was too dramatic of an example. If you're down by 3, who would you rather have take the shot, Kobe or Nash (who obviously has the better %)? Now it be crazy for anyone to say that Kobe is a better overall 3 point shooter cause he's not. Nash has proven to be one of the greatest pure shooters in history. But I'd still take Kobe in that situation. And based on past surveys I'm sure many GMs would agree with me.

Battle Tested20 · by **Battle Tested20** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:02 pm

Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

No breaking news here, but Nash hasn't missed a FT yet this week. Just dropped 25 straight to be the first off the court.

davriver290 · by **davriver290** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:08 pm

Battle Tested20 wrote:
Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

No breaking news here, but Nash hasn't missed a FT yet this week. Just dropped 25 straight to be the first off the court.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:18 pm

V1n5anity wrote:
therealdeal wrote::man10: at having such an adamant argument over something so awesome.

I wouldn't mind if either of those two took the shots, I have 100% faith in both of them.

I have faith in Kobe. I just have more in Nash.

That's fair. Kobe's built a career here making clutch shots, so if he wanted to take it I would bet my money he'd make it.

It's a win-win. That's why I find it funny we're debating it so heavily.

Alcindor · by **Alcindor** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:27 pm

Just heard great George Karl quote on Mason & Ireland. he was talking about how badly he hated the Lakers and said when we got Nash he called up Mitch and said "You've got that rabbit's foot stuck so far up your damn ***"...

v1n5anity · by **v1n5anity** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:48 pm

nthydro wrote:Vinsanity,

Of course it's a debate. I wouldn't pose the question if it wasn't. But I'd still take Kobe because like I stated, I trust him more.

Trusting him more isn't really a valid argument. I even posted stats for you. It's really not that hard.

You're right I didn't watch Nash much since I don't have league pass. And that's why I've never SEEN him make clutch free throws.

That's why they have stats.

I'm not the type who goes by percentages or reputation when I analyze a player.

I'm not big on numbers either, but here they are applicable in the Nash vs. Kobe debate.

I'm not discounting percentages completely, but theres many other variables to consider.

All variables considered, Nash is the better option.

I have to see it to believe it.

The numbers don't lie.

Your argument was that if a player shoots a higher overall percentage then that automatically means he's a better clutch free throw shooter

I never said that. I asked why you would want a worse FT shooter (Kobe) shooting free throws over the better FT shooter (Nash)? And like I've said before, I'm not basing this just off stats. I've seen Steve in the clutch and he has ice in his veins.

I know that just because you have a higher FT percentage than Kobe, it doesn't automatically mean you are a better crunch time option. I wasn't arguing that. I am simply arguing why Nash is unquestionably the better free throw shooter in crunch time.

That's simply not true. If you were to show me their clutch free throw stats like you did then your argument would've been more convincing.

That's not my argument. I showed you the clutch stats for Nash. How are you still arguing? The numbers do not lie.

Theres no question in mind Nash is better free throw shooter in normal game situation.

He's a better FT shooter in ALL situations.

But the fact that I never seen him shoot clutch free throws, I'd rather take Kobe who I've witness with my own eyes. It's that simple.

I understand it's simple. It's just wrong. You are biased and the numbers clearly prove that. The last 4-5 seasons, Nash has shot significantly better on crunch time free throws compared to Kobe. And he shoots a fair amount of them. There's nothing to argue. Once again, this is not to say Kobe isn't a great FT shooter, but Nash is simply on another level. It's like Dirk. I'd want Dirk shooting FTs over Kobe anyday and everyday.

Okay using Steve Blake was too dramatic of an example. If you're down by 3, who would you rather have take the shot, Kobe or Nash (who obviously has the better %)?

The question you asked was who I'd want to take the OPEN 3 pointer. There's no question I'd want Nash shooting an open 3 over Kobe. There's absolutely nothing to argue there.

Now it be crazy for anyone to say that Kobe is a better overall 3 point shooter cause he's not.

Agree.

Nash has proven to be one of the greatest pure shooters in history.

And he's currently tied as the best free throw shooter of all time. Which is another reason this shouldn't even be a debate.

But I'd still take Kobe in that situation.

And this is you being biased again. Why on earth would you want Kobe shooting an OPEN 3 over one of the best shooters of all time? I'd want guys like Dirk/Nash taking open 3s in crunch time over Kobe anyday. Are you seriously kidding me here? Do you really think that this "clutch" thing makes Kobe unstoppable or something? Again, I'm not comparing anyone but Kobe and Nash (and I guess Dirk), but how on earth can you say Kobe > Nash at an OPEN potential game-winning three? Nash is clutch. He makes clutch 3s at a much more efficient rate than Kobe in crunch time. This is getting ridiculous.

And based on past surveys I'm sure many GMs would agree with me.

No. They wouldn't. If you asked which player you'd want shooting the OPEN potential game-winning 3, there's no doubt the unanimous pick would be Nash (in a Nash vs. Kobe debate).

GMs vote Kobe as the best last-shot player because he has the ability to get off any shot, from anywhere. He can have three guys on him but still get off a decent shot. That's why GMs pick him to take the last shot, not because he's the best open shooter in the NBA. If that were the question, Kobe wouldn't even be considered.

nthydro · by **nthydro** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:04 pm

V1n5anity wrote:
nthydro wrote:Vinsanity,

Of course it's a debate. I wouldn't pose the question if it wasn't. But I'd still take Kobe because like I stated, I trust him more.

Trusting him more isn't really a valid argument. I even posted stats for you. It's really not that hard.

You're right I didn't watch Nash much since I don't have league pass. And that's why I've never SEEN him make clutch free throws.

That's why they have stats.

I'm not the type who goes by percentages or reputation when I analyze a player.

I'm not big on numbers either, but here they are applicable in the Nash vs. Kobe debate.

I'm not discounting percentages completely, but theres many other variables to consider.

All variables considered, Nash is the better option.

I have to see it to believe it.

The numbers don't lie.

Your argument was that if a player shoots a higher overall percentage then that automatically means he's a better clutch free throw shooter

I never said that. I asked why you would want a worse FT shooter (Kobe) shooting free throws over the better FT shooter (Nash)? And like I've said before, I'm not basing this just off stats. I've seen Steve in the clutch and he has ice in his veins.

I know that just because you have a higher FT percentage than Kobe, it doesn't automatically mean you are a better crunch time option. I wasn't arguing that. I am simply arguing why Nash is unquestionably the better free throw shooter in crunch time.

That's simply not true. If you were to show me their clutch free throw stats like you did then your argument would've been more convincing.

That's not my argument. I showed you the clutch stats for Nash. How are you still arguing? The numbers do not lie.

Theres no question in mind Nash is better free throw shooter in normal game situation.

He's a better FT shooter in ALL situations.

But the fact that I never seen him shoot clutch free throws, I'd rather take Kobe who I've witness with my own eyes. It's that simple.

I understand it's simple. It's just wrong. You are biased and the numbers clearly prove that. The last 4-5 seasons, Nash has shot significantly better on crunch time free throws compared to Kobe. And he shoots a fair amount of them. There's nothing to argue. Once again, this is not to say Kobe isn't a great FT shooter, but Nash is simply on another level. It's like Dirk. I'd want Dirk shooting FTs over Kobe anyday and everyday.

Okay using Steve Blake was too dramatic of an example. If you're down by 3, who would you rather have take the shot, Kobe or Nash (who obviously has the better %)?

The question you asked was who I'd want to take the OPEN 3 pointer. There's no question I'd want Nash shooting an open 3 over Kobe. There's absolutely nothing to argue there.

Now it be crazy for anyone to say that Kobe is a better overall 3 point shooter cause he's not.

Agree.

Nash has proven to be one of the greatest pure shooters in history.

And he's currently tied as the best free throw shooter of all time. Which is another reason this shouldn't even be a debate.

But I'd still take Kobe in that situation.

And this is you being biased again. Why on earth would you want Kobe shooting an OPEN 3 over one of the best shooters of all time? I'd want guys like Dirk/Nash taking open 3s in crunch time over Kobe anyday. Are you seriously kidding me here? Do you really think that this "clutch" thing makes Kobe unstoppable or something? Again, I'm not comparing anyone but Kobe and Nash (and I guess Dirk), but how on earth can you say Kobe > Nash at an OPEN potential game-winning three? Nash is clutch. He makes clutch 3s at a much more efficient rate than Kobe in crunch time. This is getting ridiculous.

And based on past surveys I'm sure many GMs would agree with me.

No. They wouldn't. If you asked which player you'd want shooting the OPEN potential game-winning 3, there's no doubt the unanimous pick would be Nash (in a Nash vs. Kobe debate).

GMs vote Kobe as the best last-shot player because he has the ability to get off any shot, from anywhere. He can have three guys on him but still get off a decent shot. That's why GMs pick him to take the last shot, not because he's the best open shooter in the NBA. If that were the question, Kobe wouldn't even be considered.

They have an annual poll and GMs routinely picked Kobe as the player they want to shoot the last second shot. There's no asterisk exclaiming whether the shot is open or not. Your claim that they would "unanimous" pick Nash if it was open is based on what? Pure speculation. I've seen Nash make clutch shots before but not anywhere near the amount that Kobe has hit. You're right GMs didn't pick Kobe because he's the best shooter in the NBA, they picked him because of his ability to overcome the pressure and make shots. Whether it's open or not, there's still an enormous amount of pressure.

I'm not sure where you stats came from but what are the criteria? Your stats don't clearly define a "clutch" situation. Is it just any free throw under 2 minutes? So if the Lakers are up 8 with a minute left and Kobe misses a free throw, is that considered missing a clutch free throw? Nope, not in my opinion. What I'm talking about is along the lines of down 2 with 10 seconds left with the chance to tie up. There's a huge difference in the amount of pressure in the two scenario. And IMO no one handles pressure situations better than Kobe.

I already explained to you why I would pick Kobe, it's cause I've witness him do it many times over. There's a reason why he's known as one of the greatest clutch players of all time. I don't care what the situation is, if the game is on the line I'll take Kobe all day, everyday.

dwighthowardsdad · by **dwighthowardsdad** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:17 pm

I'm so glad to have Steve. Finally, we have a point guard who can initiate the offense, make others around him better, get other players involved, run the pick & roll, etc. Steve is going to keep everybody happy...

ladam24 · by **ladam24** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:54 pm

So you guys think Nash is our new Techinal free-show shooter? It has been Kobe for quite a few seasons.

Texas Lakers Fan · by **Texas Lakers Fan** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:56 pm

ladam24 wrote:So you guys think Nash is our new Techinal free-show shooter? It has been Kobe for quite a few seasons.

Yes. He's the better free throw shooter so I'd imagine that would be the case.

XXIV · by **XXIV** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:57 pm

ladam24 wrote:So you guys think Nash is our new Techinal free-show shooter? It has been Kobe for quite a few seasons.

Kobe seems more than ok with Nash taking the free throws, and it definitely should be Nash who takes those free throws.

Juronimo · by **Juronimo** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:48 pm

I still can't believe Steve Nash is a Laker, my goodness. I have my Steve Nash jersey hanging in the closet.

dj vitus · by **dj vitus** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:07 pm

I think we'll see Steve Nash take the clutch shot more often than Kobe. I mean, Kobe has deferred to Robert Horry on a number of occasions, so he'll definitely defer to Nash if he doesn't have a good shot.

LTLakerFan · by **LTLakerFan** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:18 pm

Battle Tested20 wrote:
Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter

No breaking news here, but Nash hasn't missed a FT yet this week. Just dropped 25 straight to be the first off the court.

Game set match to this argument....perfect timing :bow:

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:21 pm

ladam24 wrote:So you guys think Nash is our new Techinal free-show shooter? It has been Kobe for quite a few seasons.

I think Fisher used to do some of it under Phil didn't he?..... Kobe usually shoots them but if that continues with Nash on the team we need a new coach.....

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:33 pm

Unless there's something wrong, Nash should be taking the FTs. He's among IMO the 5 best shooters of all-time, and among the 2-3 best FT shooters of all-time. He's also a VERY effective player in the clutch, so I don't know why there's such a big discussion going on. Not trusting Nash to hit 2 FTs in the clutch in favor of anyone in the team is kinda disrespecting him.
Different players have different specialties, and shooting is one of Nash's. Kobe's a phenomenal shooter and has been one of the clutchest players ever, but Nash is better at shooting FTs. Any FTs. It's that simple, I think Kobe knows that and sort of indicated so in yesterday's interview.

JSM · by **JSM** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:25 pm

The only reason Nash shouldn't be shooting T FTs -- we are blowing a team out of the water and we put an awful FT shooter there for craps and giggles. I'd say Dwight, but if we're blowing a team out, he has no business being in the game...hopefully Brown will agree.

Ariza3 · by **Ariza3** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:37 pm

nash and dwight joking around during post practice interviews :jam2:

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:41 pm

Latest 2 regular seasons FT% in the clutch ( game within 5 with 5 minutes left)

Nash : 95 % and 100%

Kobe : 87% and 82%

FG % in the clutch last season

Nash 52% and 38% from 3

Kobe 36% and 29% from 3

Nash took 23 shots in the clutch , Kobe 122 though

Battle Tested20 · by **Battle Tested20** on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:09 am

Ariza3 wrote:nash and dwight joking around during post practice interviews

Yeah I saw that :man10:

Their chemistry is already really great. I just can't see this team having any "team" or "chemistry" issues during the year when you have great personality guys like Nash, Dwight, and Jamison on your team to mesh well with the firiy Kobe

lakersStan24 · by **lakersStan24** on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:57 am

Hopefully Steve Nash will fit in Better than Gary Payton Did in our offensive sceme I mean Seems GP Had a few problems here and there with our system at the time

The Original 81 · by **The Original 81** on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:18 am

Juronimo wrote:I still can't believe Steve Nash is a Laker, my goodness. I have my Steve Nash jersey hanging in the closet.

Got mine recently as well. This jersey is a must buy, just for the sole reason of sticking it to Suns fans.

kobe_mamba · by **kobe_mamba** on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:54 am

I know why Steve Nash is so good.....he's not human, he's i-robot....!? :man12:

puffyusaf#2 · by **puffyusaf#2** on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

^HAHA.. MAPLE MAMBA is I-Robot :jam2:

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