Steve Nash Discussion: Retiring; Lakers Disabled Exception

Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby DHL on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Helljumper wrote:It seems like a lot of you had some unrealistic expectations if you're upset with Nash for not looking more for his own shot offensively. He averaged 12 ppg last year with Gortat as his second best player. Why would anyone expect him to be MORE aggressive offensively now?

He's doing fine.

Agree. People forget we had MORRIS/DUHON running this team.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:06 am

Helljumper wrote:It seems like a lot of you had some unrealistic expectations if you're upset with Nash for not looking more for his own shot offensively. He averaged 12 ppg last year with Gortat as his second best player. Why would anyone expect him to be MORE aggressive offensively now?

He's doing fine.


There's a certain limit. He really blew the last play imo when he spent the entire clock trying to get Kobe the ball instead of either getting his own shot or finding a better one. Instead we got a 28 foot chuck from Kobe with 2 seconds on the shot clock. If we got something better on that play we may have had a chance to win the game. I just don't like seeing the same predictable offense being ran down the stretch when we have a guy like Nash on the team. Defeats the purpose of having him.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:11 am

I agree with JMSSack ... the underutilization of Nash especially down the stretch is frustrating...

It works against GS (even though still underutilized in this game) and NY ... then we went away from it against Phily and tonight .

Why not a Nash/Kobe PNR down the stretch ? It would be unstoppable
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Armani on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:14 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:I agree with JMSSack ... the underutilization of Nash especially down the stretch is frustrating...

It works against GS (even though still underutilized in this game) and NY ... then we went away from it against Phily and tonight .

Why not a Nash/Kobe PNR down the stretch ? It would be unstoppable



Down the stretch, I agree. It might be a coaching thing... does MDA think that hero ball down the stretch is more efficient than the team ball that Nash had been playing all game? Or does Nash think so? Either way, that Kobe closer mentality is stuck in their heads.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:19 am

Nash is clever enough to be aware of the team needs on a game to game basis ... tonight there wasn't a 3rd scorer ... Pau (as usual) and Metta were ghosts , I want him to be that third scorer in this situation ... 4 shots is fine if "everybody" is hitting shots ... but tonight ? 4 shots is unacceptable
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Helljumper on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:22 am

Late in the game, when you need a score, you should go to the player/positions on the court that have been most effective throughout the game. All game long, that was Kobe ISO. I'm sure Nash recognized that.

That's not even considering that Nash was having trouble even getting into a position to potentially create a good shot while being guarded by the likes of Paul and Bledsoe. PLUS, the Clippers were often trapping/double-teaming him and trying to get the ball out of his hands.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:24 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:Nash is clever enough to be aware of the team needs on a game to game basis ... tonight there wasn't a 3rd scorer ... Pau (as usual) and Metta were ghosts , I want him to be that third scorer in this situation ... 4 shots is fine if "everybody" is hitting shots ... but tonight ? 4 shots is unacceptable


Agreed.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby King of Clutch on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:29 am

nash, you've been a great pg so far, but you're not a great pg, you're one of the best point guards to ever play the game of basketball. Start acting like it!!! I have no problem with putting kobe on a wing if YOU can't get anyone else a wide open shot. Kobe down the stretch should be a luxury, not an everyday necessity. I guess this may be part of the reasons why nash has never been to the nba finals. He needs to better understand what needs to be done to win. And down the stretch, even though kobe only truly missed one crucial shot, that was the most important one of the game. And you should have realized that, and at least TRIED to get someone a wide open shot. You're putting up great stats, but in stretches you're being fisher 4.0. Be STEVE NASH!
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Frank Dux on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:33 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:3-4 FG tonight

3-4 3 pt FG

Unacceptable really, the reason we were supposed to be so dangerous in crunch time was because we had both these guys that were super clutch. He spends way too much time trying to get Kobe the ball instead of looking for his own.



Yeah that ugly sequence late in the game where he failed to initiate the offense, dumping the ball to Bryant who was in bad position at the time, who also proceeded to give the ball back to Nash, still nothing. Dumps ball back to Bryant for a contested fadeaway 3 late in the shot clock.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Finwë on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:47 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:
Helljumper wrote:It seems like a lot of you had some unrealistic expectations if you're upset with Nash for not looking more for his own shot offensively. He averaged 12 ppg last year with Gortat as his second best player. Why would anyone expect him to be MORE aggressive offensively now?

He's doing fine.


There's a certain limit. He really blew the last play imo when he spent the entire clock trying to get Kobe the ball instead of either getting his own shot or finding a better one. Instead we got a 28 foot chuck from Kobe with 2 seconds on the shot clock. If we got something better on that play we may have had a chance to win the game. I just don't like seeing the same predictable offense being ran down the stretch when we have a guy like Nash on the team. Defeats the purpose of having him.

This.
MDA should've drawn a play for that last couple of sequences, and Nash should've definitely tried to get something going that wasn't dumping it to Kobe with 4 seconds left 30 feet from the basket.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Finwë on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:48 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:Nash is clever enough to be aware of the team needs on a game to game basis ... tonight there wasn't a 3rd scorer ... Pau (as usual) and Metta were ghosts , I want him to be that third scorer in this situation ... 4 shots is fine if "everybody" is hitting shots ... but tonight ? 4 shots is unacceptable

This too. He was too passive tonight.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Ariza3 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:24 am

i think he tried pnr with pau and was gunna create something in the lane but pau didnt do anything after setting the screen. he didnt roll he stayed out and the double off pau came at nash and he had to dump it back to kobe.

pau i feel screwed any offensive sequence if there is one. god pau cant do anything right. he cant defend. he cant score. he cant rebound. he cant do anything aggressive. he cant set strong screens worth setting. he cant roll hard to the rim.

i wonder why hes playing basketball right now bc it seems like he doesnt want to anymore honestly. theres way older guys in the league doing more physically than him. hes has no excuse...a foot injury doesnt excuse what hes doing or not doing
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby MC on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:38 am

Nash is not the issue here nor is the ISOs....

the issue is a total lack of player and ball movement...... which than forces you to the ISO game.

combine that with a team that is not built to shoot perimeter jumpers and you have the making of coach that can't win at a high enough clip with this particular roster.

Where is the weak side screens and player movement? cuts to the hoop? why are guys standing completely still behind the 3 point line while the Lakers play 2 man ball? Why is it the shots are created when we have 4 guys standing below the Free throw line or moving hard towards the hoop? that makes for a lot of unbalanced situations floor spacing wise for your opponents transition offense to take advantage of, especially when jumpers are the result of the action..... Why do we not get guys other than Howard touches on the post a little bit? we actually have 3 guys that can operate from there....... I can go on and on about the whys

This worked in Pheonix because they had shooters to compensate for MDAs gibberish offense that hit shots just standing still.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby 432J on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:49 am

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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby JGC on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:54 am

Yeah I'm not sure why Nash defers so much to Kobe at times. That last play, anyone could have done that. Fisher did that for years. The whole point of Nash is that he is supposed to help us find that secondary or tertiary option if, in a situation like that, Kobe is not available.

I was and am all for letting Kobe close out games in the final minute or two of a close game. But there's a difference between getting Kobe the ball and clearing things out and letting him go 1 on 1, and getting Kobe the ball in a desperate panic while he is guarded by two defenders 7 feet from the 3pt line.

Nash's existence is to find the BEST option for a scoring opportunity which in many cases will be Kobe, but it's not ALWAYS Kobe.

I am glad though, that these critiques of Nash's game can be reasonably had without people defensively proclaiming how Nash didn't single-handedly lose the game or how him not shooting more causes losses.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Ariza3 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:27 pm

54/42/100

nash is doing what hes done his whole career (shot # wise) but i think he should think to shoot more with the players around him. hes gunna have a lot of open jumpers if he looks for them but he doesnt. 4 shots last night and 3 FT's but i think he should shoot maybe somewhere between 8 to 10 shots per game. he doesnt want to force anything and playing smart by how hes defended but he should look to attack more and make the D react to him..not the other way around.

He'd said hed "absolutely" be open to shooting more.

but nash isnt the guy on the team that i should worry about being aggressive or hitting shots
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby LakerBoyz24 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:42 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:
Helljumper wrote:It seems like a lot of you had some unrealistic expectations if you're upset with Nash for not looking more for his own shot offensively. He averaged 12 ppg last year with Gortat as his second best player. Why would anyone expect him to be MORE aggressive offensively now?

He's doing fine.


There's a certain limit. He really blew the last play imo when he spent the entire clock trying to get Kobe the ball instead of either getting his own shot or finding a better one. Instead we got a 28 foot chuck from Kobe with 2 seconds on the shot clock. If we got something better on that play we may have had a chance to win the game. I just don't like seeing the same predictable offense being ran down the stretch when we have a guy like Nash on the team. Defeats the purpose of having him.


Yeah maybe there is a unspoken rule that in crunch time, the ball goes to Kobe. I mean, it does, and has continued to in the Post Prime Gasol/Kobe Era.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby MC on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:08 am

JGC wrote:Yeah I'm not sure why Nash defers so much to Kobe at times.


well..... how's the player movement off ball within this system late in games?

It's too easy to trap Nash on the P&R and take away the first 2 options out of it if you have no player movement and spotty shooters.....

Not sure what the options are other than ISOs at that point and it's all because of the offensive philosophy in play.

This is where an offense like the Princeton would excel once it's learned.......... it's designed to get players the ball off of screen actions using player movement.

MDA ball does it here and there but mostly is just a couple guys standing around watching almost all the time..... way too easy to predict and stop if those guys standing around aren't sharp shooters.


I still think firing Brown was not a mistake but scrapping the Princeton altogether was a colossal one. If they would have stuck to it I think they would have been much better today than they are right now. Once they would have figured out the timing within it on what a good shot is floor balance wise they would have reduced the turnovers and transition hoops they were giving up while at the same time controlling the pace that is necessary for a vet team too succeed IMO...... instead the FO not only blinked, they panicked to the point of sh++ing the bed.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Finwë on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:15 pm

^^ I agree for the most part. I don't want to jump into a princeton offense discussion though.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby JLaker17 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:17 pm

I wish he would shoot more, but he is doing what he has always done really.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Finwë on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:00 pm

I'm as big a Nash fan as there is, but his D down the stretch needs to be called out. It was BEYOND BAD.
It absolutely broke our defense (which was already pretty bad) down. Lawson got like 9(3 layups and a 3pt shot) of the easiest points of his life. It looked so bad that one had to wonder if he was really a + out there, like trodgers pointed out.
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:17 pm

So what do we do, trade Nash?

Our team defense isn't covering his weaknesses. Trade for better team defenders to cover it up?

What's the solution? We know the problems... :bang:
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:22 pm

Nash, you should've gone to the Knicks bro. :man10:
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby themasterphil on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:23 pm

I expected this kind of defense from him ....he is one of the worst defensive guards in this league and he is 90 years old ....so we need to accept that, one thing we cant make better .....he is saved by his offense nothing else, but also he had a few teriblle TO last night at the start of 2nd half....that give them a few easy points....that need to be sad
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Re: Steve Nash Discussion: downright Nashty

Postby Ariza3 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:49 am

he better go crazy tomorrow and this week. doesnt really have to worry about post touches but doesnt have a pnr buddy. i just want him to attack attack attack and if the shot isnt there find the open guy. he'll have a smaller lineup with meeks kobe metta and jamison most likely at some point and that could be a lot of space for him to opperate and kick out if need be. guys better be ready and let it fly.

we have got to shoot and a high efficiency individually and as a team. and get back on d and communicate out there.

nash's leadership will really be tested and show this week aswell as kobe's. kobes not so much by doing but by LEADING his team in the right direction.
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