The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:17 am

JGC wrote:

There are many reasons why I don't think the team has been playing well regardless of what your stats say.

I see guys physically bumping in to each other on offensive sets. Passing up open looks. Not making the extra play. Hesitating instead of shooting. Forcing the issue. Waiting far too long in the shot clock. There is no fluidity/flow/feel to the game whatsoever. Only 1 real regular season game but Nash is invisible. So what I mean when I say we are shooting 50% FG and 100PPG in SPITE of not playing well, I mean that how we're achieving those stats, is not sustainable over the long haul.

The stats that reflect these observations are as follows:
- Over 18 turnovers per game good for 2nd WORST in the NBA. And we're not even a run and gun team.
- Kobe averaging 3 assists per game.
- Nash averaging 4 assists per game.
- Kobe averaging more turnovers than assists per game.
- If Nash and Kobe combine for 7 assists and 5.5 TO per game all season, we're screwed.

The stats also include a high level of minutes for Kobe, Pau and Dwight. That is also not sustainable over the long haul. We have to execute better offensively so we can get more from the starters in LESS time.

If these first 5 games reflect a team playing EXTREMELY well offensively, then we are in big trouble. Honestly, I really don't know how anyone can watch this team and make the claim that they play EXTREMELY well offensively.


I honestly don't expect nash and kobe to average the same assists they had before while playing together. There's only one ball to go around. Either nash or kobe's assists will decrease. Somethings gotta give. I don't necessarily consider turnovers to be a part of the offense just yet. Because we are looking at an unfinished product. This team had previously played 1 game together before the regular season started. ONE. To say that these dominant players wouldn't find any issues meshing would be far from the truth.If this continues to be a problem down the road, then you can say it's a byproduct of the offense itself, and not the chemistry, and learning of the offense. At this point its unclear which is true. And to see them able to do the things they are able to do with all those variables added is a testament to how good the offense CAN be when they get used to each other and get everything down. But all of that is irrelevant. The lakers haven't been shut down. Like i've said multiple times, they have been around 100pts on 50% shooting, excluding this game. To say a team that does this has offensive problems is silly in my opinion. Now i'm not saying its perfect. I'm just saying it's more than enough to win. They can't try to outscore everyone. Their defense has been the main issue. And all of this is irrelevant. You said the starters pieces don't fit well. Can you explain this to me, i'm still lost on that. And I feel like we've strayed from those original comments...
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:21 am

JGC wrote:There are many reasons why I don't think the team has been playing well regardless of what your stats say.

I see guys physically bumping in to each other on offensive sets. Passing up open looks. Not making the extra play. Hesitating instead of shooting. Forcing the issue. Waiting far too long in the shot clock. There is no fluidity/flow/feel to the game whatsoever. Only 1 real regular season game but Nash is invisible. So what I mean when I say we are shooting 50% FG and 100PPG in SPITE of not playing well, I mean that how we're achieving those stats, is not sustainable over the long haul.

The stats that reflect these observations are as follows:
- Over 18 turnovers per game good for 2nd WORST in the NBA. And we're not even a run and gun team.
- Kobe averaging 3 assists per game.
- Nash averaging 4 assists per game.
- Kobe averaging more turnovers than assists per game.
- If Nash and Kobe combine for 7 assists and 5.5 TO per game all season, we're screwed.

The stats also include a high level of minutes for Kobe, Pau and Dwight. That is also not sustainable over the long haul. We have to execute better offensively so we can get more from the starters in LESS time.

If these first 5 games reflect a team playing EXTREMELY well offensively, then we are in big trouble. Honestly, I really don't know how anyone can watch this team and make the claim that they play EXTREMELY well offensively.


Good breakdown. They've bad on both sides of the ball. Some of this obviously could be attributable to guys not used to playing alongside one another, some could be the new system. But to me it's still largely a coaching issue. If the system isn't working - fix it or adapt it better to your personnel. Simplify things. Get your guys on the same page, whatever it takes.

The minutes thing is a real abomination of coaching I feel. The guy doesn't know how to use his bench players in a good way - his rotations have been bizarre, inconsistent and punitive in the case of a guy like Meeks and last year Ebanks and GLOCK. That is truly hurting any kind of bench chemistry, and that in turn puts even more pressure on the starters and increases their minutes. It's like a Catch 22.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:28 am

JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:
JGC wrote:^ I keep saying it, because it's true.

There is no doubt that Mike Brown is A problem. Not THE problem.

It's funny, I don't think any of your examples are examples of how we played well as a team to be honest. Even the Portland game, we lost every single quarter. Except the 4th when the game was already in hand and it was garbage time.

I've seen plays where we looked good. I haven't seen quarters. Or halves. Or a full game yet. I mean if you're going to use one half of a preseason game and parts of one regular season game as evidence that we're making progress, you could be talking about the Wizards. This is a team that should be dominating coming out of the gate against bad to average teams, and occasionally struggling against the elite. And the development would result in us being able to eventually, regularly beat the elite.

Let's put it this way. If we turn around and win it all this year... would you say we would be the worst looking team out of the gate to then go on to win a championship in the history of the league?

And to answer your question, lol how in the world would I know. I wasn't around to see every nba championship team, and how they started off. lol


Ok. Among all of the NBA championship teams you have seen in your lifetime, would you say then that if the Lakers were to turn this around and win this year, that they would have to be the WORST looking team out of the gate to ever win an NBA championship in your entire life that you can recall?

Well i'm not sure. Miami was pretty bad when they started off. Barely a .500 team. But yeah i'll say we have an equal or worse start than that. But there are also teams who got off to BLAZING starts, only to be bounced in the first round. Like the 2011 spurs when they lost to memphis, and mavs (07,08??) when they were the #1 seed and lost to the warriors in the first round. I think the 2011 spurs started at like 29 and 4, or something like that. So I don't know where you're headed with that...
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby Center Court on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:32 am

Lakerjones wrote:
JGC wrote:There are many reasons why I don't think the team has been playing well regardless of what your stats say.

I see guys physically bumping in to each other on offensive sets. Passing up open looks. Not making the extra play. Hesitating instead of shooting. Forcing the issue. Waiting far too long in the shot clock. There is no fluidity/flow/feel to the game whatsoever. Only 1 real regular season game but Nash is invisible. So what I mean when I say we are shooting 50% FG and 100PPG in SPITE of not playing well, I mean that how we're achieving those stats, is not sustainable over the long haul.

The stats that reflect these observations are as follows:
- Over 18 turnovers per game good for 2nd WORST in the NBA. And we're not even a run and gun team.
- Kobe averaging 3 assists per game.
- Nash averaging 4 assists per game.
- Kobe averaging more turnovers than assists per game.
- If Nash and Kobe combine for 7 assists and 5.5 TO per game all season, we're screwed.

The stats also include a high level of minutes for Kobe, Pau and Dwight. That is also not sustainable over the long haul. We have to execute better offensively so we can get more from the starters in LESS time.

If these first 5 games reflect a team playing EXTREMELY well offensively, then we are in big trouble. Honestly, I really don't know how anyone can watch this team and make the claim that they play EXTREMELY well offensively.


JSG just hit it on the head... 110%. Tonight I was flipping between our game, LAC vs SAS, and even NOH vs Philly and there is a drastic difference. 2 of those games looked like basketball players doing their thing, the other looked like the best set of players struggling to learn some new form of offense that is not at all suited for them.
Players are running into each other, wasting 6-12 seconds just trying to set up a play, crowded areas of the floor while others are completely vacant, not having good angles to make post entries, horrible rotations, overplaying of vets, playing some out of position, not using good assets,etc. I don't care what anyone says, this team is trying. This isn't about Paul Milsap working harder, this is about every player trying to force some offense schemes that end up mentally, physically, and emotionally draining.

Brown needs to go. This is getting absurd. Fire Brown, Jordan, Bickerstaff, Kuester (if he is still here), etc. Bring in MDA, McMillin, or Sloan. Let Nash come back and our natural talent to get us into the top half of the west, then as the season progreeses we integrate more to the new coach and all his schemes.

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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:43 am

Lakerjones wrote:
Good breakdown. They've bad on both sides of the ball. Some of this obviously could be attributable to guys not used to playing alongside one another, some could be the new system. But to me it's still largely a coaching issue. If the system isn't working - fix it or adapt it better to your personnel. Simplify things. Get your guys on the same page, whatever it takes.

The minutes thing is a real abomination of coaching I feel. The guy doesn't know how to use his bench players in a good way - his rotations have been bizarre, inconsistent and punitive in the case of a guy like Meeks and last year Ebanks and GLOCK. That is truly hurting any kind of bench chemistry, and that in turn puts even more pressure on the starters and increases their minutes. It's like a Catch 22.

I agree. I honestly dont think that the bench is as bad as it is being portrayed to be. I think they're all being used in the worst possible situations. There is no reason why meeks shouldn't be playing, and there is no reason why morris should be starting over duhon. I also keep hearing about the bench's "Points per game". Well if brown plays the starters heavy minutes, then there's no way the bench can put up good numbers, even if they have the talent to do just that. Idk, the coaching is just all over the place to start this season. 6 games in, and their has been so many rotation changes. Dallas has just as many new players. And they have solid rotations, and are winning WITHOUT dirk. This is a result of good coaching.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:45 am

King of Clutch wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
Good breakdown. They've bad on both sides of the ball. Some of this obviously could be attributable to guys not used to playing alongside one another, some could be the new system. But to me it's still largely a coaching issue. If the system isn't working - fix it or adapt it better to your personnel. Simplify things. Get your guys on the same page, whatever it takes.

The minutes thing is a real abomination of coaching I feel. The guy doesn't know how to use his bench players in a good way - his rotations have been bizarre, inconsistent and punitive in the case of a guy like Meeks and last year Ebanks and GLOCK. That is truly hurting any kind of bench chemistry, and that in turn puts even more pressure on the starters and increases their minutes. It's like a Catch 22.

I agree. I honestly dont think that the bench is as bad as it is being portrayed to be. I think they're all being used in the worst possible situations. There is no reason why meeks shouldn't be playing, and there is no reason why morris should be starting over duhon. I also keep hearing about the bench's "Points per game". Well if brown plays the starters heavy minutes, then there's no way the bench can put up good numbers, even if they have the talent to do just that. Idk, the coaching is just all over the place to start this season. 6 games in, and their has been so many rotation changes. Dallas has just as many new players. And they have solid rotations, and are winning WITHOUT dirk. This is a result of good coaching.


^^ Totally agree.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby L4L on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:50 am

From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:57 am

L4L wrote:From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.

Well said!!!
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:01 am

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will.


That's basically what I've felt as well. The guys are trying too hard to do something they aren't comfortable with and it's killing us right now and making us look worse than we actually are. And you can only wait for so long before the team just decides it won't work and gives up on the coach. Given the fact that Brown doesn't have the credentials to command respect, it's very likely they won't give Brown very much time at all before completely ignoring him.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby lakersyunowin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:04 am

L4L wrote:From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.


nothing i can say but :bow:
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:07 am

I agree with some of the posters here, flipping between the Laker game & the Clipper game, the Clippers are out there knowing exactly what they are doing on both ends of the court & they look comfrotable doing it, even the Spurs who were beat by the Clippers knew exactly their plan. The Lakers look like a broken & lost team on both ends of the court. Why? Because the system they are running does not fit the team, on any end of the floor, it doesn't fit them as a team & it doesn't fit them as individuals, the staff is trying to shove this offense down their throats when in reality it just isn't working. 1-12 counting the pre-season overall, enough is enough.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby revgen on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:10 am

L4L wrote:From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.


That's why I've advocated us running P&R's and ISO's along with some Princeton to start the season. Incorporate more Princeton elements as we become more aware of the system.

Start with simple appetizers first while the main course is cooking in the kitchen. Bring the main course out when it's ready to serve.

Unfortunately, Chef Brown doesn't share this POV.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby lakersyunowin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:13 am

dammit revgen, now i have to eat something.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby Finwë on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:19 am

L4L wrote:From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Brilliant post. Just spot on.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby MC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:50 am

L4L - I agree with your post....... I do however think Brown can fix this mess...... by introducing more pick and role action and reducing the system touches. Brown should be slowly introducing this offense, especially in light of their struggles...... Instead he is force feeding it which is starting to demoralize this group. These struggles are than amplified by his normal suspect rotations.

For now I would introduce more pick and role action with Bryant as the ball handler until Nash gets back where you can hand more of that to him. Run fewer of the new offensive sets until they can run more of it effectively in practice and slowly introduce it within games.

Some of their defensive deficiencies are being exposed while trying to force feed this system offensively. They are not taking the opportunities within the offense at the right time which also forces them to be unbalanced for transition defense. How you run an slow down system also affects your ability to stay balanced and defensively sound in case of transition opportunities.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby jbiggs on Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:20 am

L4L for President :bow:
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby karacha on Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:06 am

This is not going to end well.
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Re: The Lakers are in last place of the Western Conference

Postby therealdeal on Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:11 am

L4L wrote:From a logical perspective, the argument that we may have some sort of talent combination that just doesn't "mesh" makes sense. From a basketball perspective, I don't think it holds an incredible amount of merit. Steve Nash is capable of producing efficient offense with nothing more than an athletic wing and some three point shooters. The last time the Suns finished less than top 10 in ORtg (points per 100 possessions) was the year before they got Steve Nash. They finished 21st (out of 29). The following 4-5 years, they never placed outside of the Top 2. With Stoudemire, Marion, D'Antoni, and the majority of his help gone, Nash still helped the Suns to a Top 10 offense in each of the last two years despite playing limited minutes.

On this team, instead of Marcin Gortat at center, he has Dwight Howard. Instead of Jason Richardson, he has Kobe Bryant. Instead of Channing Frye, he has Pau Gasol. I think it is fair to say Nash has much better weapons this year. You could argue that some of the talent doesn't mesh with the former Suns' system. I'd agree. That said, we have the firepower on the bench to construct something that does make sense from a PnR/Run 'n' Gun perspective. It wouldn't be very difficult to sub Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison into that system (for Artest/Gasol). Would that be ideal from a talent maximization stand point? No, of course not. Would it still produce a better Run 'n' Gun offense than Phoenix had last year? Hell yeah.

Even if we decided to run previously used systems that only maximized one or two of our key players, we still have better pieces than were present on their former teams. If we wanted to run the triangle, our collective talent could do that better than our collective talent could the last two to three years. If we wanted to play Dwight iso ball, our collective talent could do it better than the Magic ever could. The fact that our offense is operating at less than the level it should is not very surprising. Basketball is a team game and systems take time to learn. That said, the severity of our struggles, not the fact that we are having them, is the true indictment against the coaching in my opinion.

Here is the crux of my point: if we changed absolutely nothing from last year, and just inserted our new pieces regardless of line-up and match-up optimization, our performance SHOULD have improved rather shortly. Our talent is so incredible that anything is going to work well once we actually learn it. There is no magic basketball voodoo that can cause a group of this caliber to come together in such a weird way as to massively negatively effect all of their games.

What we are seeing is a group of guys who don't really know what the hell they are doing out there. If we ran basic sets, we would nearly score at will. I honestly believe this team could easily be a Top 3 offense with nothing more than pick and roll sets. Mind you, I am not saying that is the best long term approach. I don't have an issue with installing something more complex over time. I think it is a great idea! But to get to the point where you have completely demoralized the team is unacceptable; to get to the point where offense is such a distraction that you have caused defensive regression despite replacing Derek Fisher with Steve Blake and Andrew Bynum with Dwight Howard is unacceptable. It bespeaks a true failure to lead effectively. A failure to lead effectively is unacceptable.

I am rarely a brash person, but Coach Brown has certainly lost my favor. I am willing to wait longer than most, but this is a bonafide mess. I'm just not confident Brown can clean it up in time.

Way to stop by and drop some knowledge. :jam2: :jam2:
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