The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby Finwë on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:44 pm

My assessment of our defensive issues (I posted it on another thread, thought it belonged in the defensive thread):

Many of our problems come from an evident lack of "chemistry" on that end. Guys making the wrong reads of each other, lacking communication, not covering one and other the way they should.. I think a lot of that lack of chemistry comes from little time on the floor together (INJURIES), changing defensive systems (3 different coaches) and maybe some guys just don't get along that well, but that isn't really what I'm focusing on. We've had LOTS of different lineups, not only because of injuries but also because we've had different coaches who like playing different guys / like experimenting with lineups.

I also believe that while defense is a team game, it takes one or two guys to take a possession off to basically kill you. That has been the case with many of our players this season, sometimes Gasol, sometimes Kobe, sometimes Nash, sometimes Jamison... One guy that doesn't do his job or makes a mistake and it becomes very tough to recover, especially if you don't really have much athleticism as a team.

Our transition D is terrible, not just because we're slow, also has to do with us taking a lot of long jumpers without proper floor balance (and not being really adept at it). Earlier in the season we turned the ball over like CRAZY.

We've got guys who make dumb fouls as well (Hill, Howard, MWP most noticeably), putting guys on the line in the wrong moments.


Basically, it boils down to -chemistry -focus/effort from every guy -transition D -playing smart (i.e. not commiting dumb fouls) -athleticism
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:51 am

^ IMO, the worst offenders on the team in that department are Kobe, Gasol and Jamison. Nash tries, you see him fight through screens and stuff like that. Dwight tries, MWP tries. Those other 3 guys don't try. I think saying they 'sometimes' take a possession off is an overstatement.

To me, it's more like they 'sometimes' give effort on the defensive end and that's just unacceptable especially from two guys who have been on this team, knows what it takes to succeed and are considered leaders of this team in Kobe and Gasol.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby Forklift on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:24 am

playing lazy defense is one thing, but what really pisses me off is not everyone boxes out. Most of those long rebounds we could have easily gotten if everyone would just box out. We allow how many 2nd and even 3rd chance points just because we can't grab a simple defensive rebound. It's one thing to have terrible defense, but when you allow them to have 2nd/3rd chance points off their occassional misses... :bang: :bang:
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby Finwë on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:48 pm

JGC wrote:^ IMO, the worst offenders on the team in that department are Kobe, Gasol and Jamison. Nash tries, you see him fight through screens and stuff like that. Dwight tries, MWP tries. Those other 3 guys don't try. I think saying they 'sometimes' take a possession off is an overstatement.

To me, it's more like they 'sometimes' give effort on the defensive end and that's just unacceptable especially from two guys who have been on this team, knows what it takes to succeed and are considered leaders of this team in Kobe and Gasol.

Yeah, I think you're right.
I think Kobe gets caught roaming too often. Like others pointed out, he's played that way for years, but now he lacks the speed to recover like he used to. He's still very capable on that end, but some games he just doesn't contribute until late. I think putting him on shooters isn't a good idea. I know the coaches probably think putting him on the best or second best player would tire him out, but I think it would be worth it, because his man D is always very good. When he's asked to guard the likes of Irving/CP3/Westbrook etc he actually does a very good job. Putting him on shooters sometimes doesn't work as well because he tends to roam and try and get steals or whatever, and with him and the team not rotating well enough on a regular basis that basically kills us.
Pau and Jamison are sometimes just overpowered / ran past because they are weak/slow; still I agree they don't try hard enough.
Nash does try, and there are many instances where I find his D very adequate. However, there have been games where his D was just flat out terrible, and in key stretches of those games, like the last home game against Denver or the last one against Philly. He couldn't defend to save his life, to the point where I was thinking if keeping him out there was actually helping us. He need to be able to hide his deficiencies in such stretches more effectively.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby SmoothOperator on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:18 pm

In Jim Buss' interview on 710 ESPN yesterday, he openly admitted that this team's half court defense is pretty good... but the transition defense is the worst in the league.

Does he not realize the transition defense is a product of D'Antoni's offense? D'Antoni is encouraging the team to push the offensive tempo and take perimeter shots. What do you think happens when you miss a perimeter shot? The other team gets a long rebound and they come running for a transition basket.

In addition to this, the whole having Gasol hovering around the 18ft - 3pt line on offense is a problem as well. Using the latest Clippers/Lakers game as an example... Gasol was standing "where he was supposed to be" in D'Antoni's offense, which is around the 3 point line. If the Lakers miss their shot on offense and the clippers get the rebound, what happened was Gasol and Griffin get into a foot race from the 3pt line to the other side of the court.... Griffin is able to outrun Gasol (and the rest of the Laker's team since he had a head start because he was standing at the 3pt line guarding Pau) to the other basket where he catches easy, long passes in transition for a easy dunk. Tell me that did not happen about 3 times in that game.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:50 pm

lakerswiz wrote:I noticed that many of our defensive issues are starting at the top of the key and the wings. Our guys aren't playing help side defense at the elbows. The second to last play of the game last night....watch Artest's help side defense on Tony Parker as he drives with Nash.

Nash played really good D right there...about the best I'd expect from Nash on Parker...but Artest needed to meet him right there at the elbow so Parker couldn't penetrate. Luckily they turned it over because of Timmy D clogging up the whole joint, but with a tighter help side D at the elbows, the penetration will be cut down slightly. And with the positing of the wing offensive players, we should still be close enough to get a good close out on the shooter so we aren't just simply giving up more 3 pointers.

What's happening is we're playing the lazy helpside, the point guards / wings are getting to that elbow and then the help side defender is late and is over compensating meaning they're getting back to THEIR defensive assignment late. That either allows for the easy pull up J or they show and go and penetrate more and break down our defense further.

The players should fully understand this. They are NBA professionals. But I would want the coach to be harping this to them every single time. I want the coach of my team to have the film session tape cut into just defensive lapses and then that's all we work on in practice. And every time someone F's up, stop practice and shame them for the lack of effort. If it wasn't a lack of effort, TEACH THE PLAYER THAT IS YOUR DAMN JOB. No free throw shooting. No shooting drills. No offensive practice. Just practice the damn defense. We can score.


^^ Great breakdown Lakerswiz.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:42 am

The excuse going around is that the team is suffering from injuries and that the starters have only played 9 games together. If that's the case, then why is our offense so good? We apparently don't have a problem scoring 101 points against OKC with no Pau, no D12, and no Jordan Hill.

We don't have a defensive mentality.

If we did, then we'd be like the old Spurs teams. It didn't matter if the starters were on the floor or the bench was on the floor. They all knew their assignments and rotations and played together.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby k0i308v3 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:11 pm

revgen wrote:The excuse going around is that the team is suffering from injuries and that the starters have only played 9 games together. If that's the case, then why is our offense so good? We apparently don't have a problem scoring 101 points against OKC with no Pau, no D12, and no Jordan Hill.

We don't have a defensive mentality.

If we did, then we'd be like the old Spurs teams. It didn't matter if the starters were on the floor or the bench was on the floor. They all knew their assignments and rotations and played together.


The Spurs have Pop we have Mike, plain and simple when your coach is focused on one end of the floor your team takes on that mentality. Mike can say oh we practice oh we need more effort on defense ( This seems to be his excuse everytime ) but it is his job to get players to buy in, kind of sad that their pro players and you need to motivate them to play something they all say they love. I just don't feel like they really care outside of Dwight who is constantly frustrated with it that our defense matters. That is all a reflection of how you are coached. Mike can say what he wants to but HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS and that is the reason he has the reputation that he does.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:22 pm

MDA's strength certainly isn't his defense schemes. He's not a genius in that area and we knew that when we hired him. I don't know how much of a role Person has at this time on the defense; but it sure does look like in order for MDA's system to be sucessful, he needs a defensive coordinator.

I don't see a clear scheme out there; at the times we have been successful on defense, we have funnled everything to Dwight and rotated to his man to rebound the ball. Unfortunately, help the helper hasn't been our strong suit and neither has rotating back to three-point shooters, or not communicating properly how where one is suppose to be on defense after an easy layup has been given up.

These things should be fundamental. This comes down to the coaching. I'll give MDA a chance just like I did with Brown. I do think MDA is an upgrade. He surely does need help coaching that end, though...
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby borri on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Kobe's right. We are OLD.

Watched the IND, NYK game. INDY's defenders, especially the frontcourt, got into the grills of the knicks players AND was able to deny penetration to a large extent. They were quick.

Then i watched our game, it was night and day. No matter the scheme, and since we can't zone in the NBA to the extent that they do in college, you've got to be able to move your legs to play D. A LARGE part of it is youth and athleticism. We've got a 38 and 34 year PG and SG and Pau. That's THREE areas where teams can get to the paint at will. That's our problem. Our subs, Duhon and Morris (while young, plays stupid), Meeks who tries but just isn't a good defender, isn't any better.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:01 pm

^I'm not buying the "old" excuse. The Spurs, Pistons, and Boston teams from the mid-00's were older teams. They didn't have a problem playing D. It's all mental.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm

^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...


That hasn't stopped the Knicks.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:10 pm

revgen wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...


That hasn't stopped the Knicks.


they're not a good defensive team and are in the Leastern Conference ... not sure what is your argument here
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:58 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:
revgen wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...


That hasn't stopped the Knicks.


they're not a good defensive team and are in the Leastern Conference ... not sure what is your argument here


Their defense wasn't that bad when the old guys (Camby, Thomas, Sheed etc) were playing on the floor more. Most of their defensive lapses from what I've watched come from their young players. It's the 30+ year olds like Camby, Thomas, Sheed, etc that focus on defense more often.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby hdtvset on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:03 pm

On spending 15-20 min's on defense during practice.

Lakers think if they practice more on offense, they can score more points. Which means, if they could score 120+ points, they would win those games that they lost. The KEY to win the game is still whoever get the most points wins. So, the Lakers really don't have to practice on defense, just keep practicing on offense so they can score more points than other teams. Is this their mindset?

Not that I agree with them. :man10: But, Kobe did pick him as the coach.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby Congo Cash on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Too old, too slow, and too lazy to play D...
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby borri on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:52 pm

revgen wrote:^I'm not buying the "old" excuse. The Spurs, Pistons, and Boston teams from the mid-00's were older teams. They didn't have a problem playing D. It's all mental.


Nash v Kidd/Felton ----NYK wins by a landslide
Kobe v Kidd/Brewer ---NYK wins
MWP v Melo ----LAL wins
Pau v Camby ----NYK by a landslide
D12 v Chandler --- Tie

The only defensive matchup we win is MWP. They are old. But we are older AND slower.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby borri on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Also, let me put it to you this way. I am 40. Tried to play a pick up game with dude in their early 30's. I tried as hard as I could, focusing 100% on D. Still couldn't match their quickness.

I don't know how old you are, but let me tell us this. I am no where near as fast and quick as when I was in my mid 30's. When I was in my mid 30's I also was no where near as fast and quick as when I was in my late 20's.

That's what age does to you bro. Can't escape. Kobe is 10000% right. I think he knows alot more about what it takes to play good defense in the NBA than we do.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:59 pm

^You're talking about 1 vs 1. It's not about 1 vs 1. It's about team defense. Talking, helping, communicating.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby borri on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:04 pm

revgen wrote:^You're talking about 1 vs 1. It's not about 1 vs 1. It's about team defense. Talking, helping, communicating.


I get you. But the problem is, we help. We are forced to help. Helping taxes the defense. Creates open looks. That's why our team defense is second to last in opp ast/to ratio.

Guys get to the paint, dish off for open looks. Miss a shot and get offensive rebounds. That right there has been a microcosm of our D this year.

Yes, we suck at help D. But forcing us to scramble to help, takes energy from all players. We are old. We play a fast pace on O. It just is not the right mix.

Look, I am not saying we suck only because we are old. What I am saying is, it plays a large part of our defensive downfall.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:30 pm

borri wrote:
revgen wrote:^You're talking about 1 vs 1. It's not about 1 vs 1. It's about team defense. Talking, helping, communicating.


I get you. But the problem is, we help. We are forced to help. Helping taxes the defense. Creates open looks. That's why our team defense is second to last in opp ast/to ratio.

Guys get to the paint, dish off for open looks. Miss a shot and get offensive rebounds. That right there has been a microcosm of our D this year.

Yes, we suck at help D. But forcing us to scramble to help, takes energy from all players. We are old. We play a fast pace on O. It just is not the right mix.

Look, I am not saying we suck only because we are old. What I am saying is, it plays a large part of our defensive downfall.


It takes so much energy, because we have no sense of timing. We are simply running around like headless chickens. If we actually practice our rotations, everybody would know exactly where to be and where to go.

As D12 told a reporter recently,

Reporter: "We've been talking about this all season, the area of defense, what was plaguing you guys tonight on that end?"

Howard: "The pick and roll defense wasn't great tonight. The help wasn't there, the help the helper wasn't there. It just has to be better overall."

Reporter: "Those are things you have talked about a lot of times this season, what's the learning curve going on in regards to that?"

Howard: "Those guys gotta be IN THE RIGHT SPOTS, and they have to be taught it. It has to be something that you practice on, so guys can understand [what] they have to go through. You can't just TALK about defense, and TALK about where to go, you actually gotta SHOW guys where to go."

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/35176/lakers-defense-remains-unreliable

It's not about us being old. It's about us not knowing what we're supposed to be doing. We expend way more energy than we should because our habits are poor and we have no chemistry on that end of the floor.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby borri on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:42 pm

Agree to disagree.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby dj vitus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:03 pm

borri wrote:Agree to disagree.

I think it's a combination of both. :man1:

There is still hope, though. A lot of team defense is mental, and just knowing/anticipating where to be at the right time.

Brad Miller, for example, was one of the slowest and least athletic guys on the planet, but he knew where he needed to be with his arms straight up to prevent easy layups. Not every play, of course, but enough to frustrate other guys thinking they could just barge in the lane at will. He even gave Shaq problems in his heyday.
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Re: The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:46 pm

^Excellent example.

Age affects shooting more than it affects team defense. In 2008, the wretched old Spurs lost to us in 5 games in the WCF despite holding us to 93 ppg for the series. And it wasn't just because Ginobli got hurt. It was because those old geezers couldn't hit wide open shots. They kept bricking and bricking and bricking. It was so bad that Popovic during Q&A with a TNT sideline reporter asked if Doug Collins could suit up because they needed somebody who could make a shot. They weren't too old to rotate and help.
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