The one, the only DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM thread

Vlade_12 · by **Vlade_12** on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:11 pm

JGC wrote:
Vlade_12 wrote:we don't play it for 48 minutes because we are old and it drains our energy.. We need to play more younger players like Clark, Increase JHILLs minutes, run a 10 man rotation, don't over play guys, add another wing man

That is BS. Has nothing to do with age.

Why do you think Kobe coast so much on defense during the long regular season. Your in denial if you don't think age is A factor

JGC · by **JGC** on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:21 pm

Vlade_12 wrote:
JGC wrote:
Vlade_12 wrote:we don't play it for 48 minutes because we are old and it drains our energy.. We need to play more younger players like Clark, Increase JHILLs minutes, run a 10 man rotation, don't over play guys, add another wing man

That is BS. Has nothing to do with age.

Why do you think Kobe coast so much on defense during the long regular season. Your in denial if you don't think age is A factor

If you're saying he's coasting, then you're really saying he CAN play defense, he's just choosing not to.

It's that I have a problem with. He could perhaps, oh, not lead the league in scoring and use some of that energy for defense couldn't he?

revgen · by **revgen** on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:02 pm

lakerswiz wrote:
revgen wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:
revgen wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:Oh so this team is the same as last season? We just had 6 players play that weren't even on our team last year.

Last season's team means nothing to anything about this season at all in any way.

This team hasn't played at a slower pace since the first five games.

But to say we can play at this pace and somehow figure out the trick to playing defense with some better habits is just silly. This team can't play at this pace.

1) I didn't say that the teams were the same. So I'm not sure what your point is.

2) No. Not silly at all.

This team is currently in the top 10 in points per possession offensively despite playing at a high pace.

The problem is poor defensive habits.

? Whoever said they couldn't score?

I'm simply saying play slower so the opposition gets the ball less. So we have to play defense less. If we can score that well and we're losing these games because of a few baskets a game, then why play so fast to the 110's? Why have so many possessions where you can make a mistake or turnover directly giving the opposition the ball back? We aren't good defensively. The easiest way to improve our defense is to give them the ball less.

In other words, slow the pace down to hide our poor defensive habits.

That's not the answer. It didn't work last season. It didn't work against Dallas. Poor defensive habits will be exposed regardless of what pace we play at.

You keep saying we did it last season.

LAST SEASON DOESN'T MATTER.

Bad habits do matter.

Our habits on defense have been poor since Phil's last season. These habits can't continue if we want to win a championship.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:17 pm

this team gives up both wide open layups as well as wide open 3's.....normally we use only give up one or the other during prior years

phoenixrisingla · by **phoenixrisingla** on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 am

khmrP wrote:this team gives up both wide open layups as well as wide open 3's.....normally we use only give up one or the other during prior years

Especially right now with out big's out.

People are trying to help by collapsing on the driving lanes, only to leave their man (always seems to be the other teams 3pt ace) like a 8ft buffer.

phoenixrisingla · by **phoenixrisingla** on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:14 pm

I know it's on the players too, but sometimes I feel like arguement of "these guys are Pro's, they need to be giving 100% every night regardless of anything else" isnt realistic.

I take my career VERY seriously, but I cant honestly say I NEVER have a down day. Can any of us say that? the NBA is a long season and even the most dedicated players have down days, lose focus, etc.

Part of a coaches job, IMHO, is to keep players motivated focused and I think that when a coach is merely playing lip service to improving on defense as opposed to taking control of the team and forcing it, it is obvious and trickles down.

KB24 · by **KB24** on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:56 pm

SmoothOperator wrote:Jan 9 - SAS scores 108 - Loss
Jan 8 - HOU scores 125 - Loss
Jan 6 - DEN scores 112 - Loss
Jan 4 - LAC scores 107 - Loss
Jan 1 - PHI scores 103 - Loss
Dec 28 - POR scores 87 - Win
Dec 26 - DEN scores 126 - Loss
Dec 25 - NYK scores 95 - Win
Dec 22 - GSW scores 115 - Win
Dec 18 - CHA scores 100 - Win
Dec 16 - PHI scores 98 - Win
Dec 14 - WAS scores 96 - Win
Dec 13 - NYK scores 113 - Loss
Dec 11 - CLE scores 100 - Loss
Dec 9 - UTA scores 117 - Loss
Dec 7 - OKC scores 114 - Loss
Dec 5 - NOH scores 87 - Win
Dec 4 - HOU scores 107 - Loss
Dec 2 - ORL scores 113 - Loss

Since Dec 1, The Lakers went 7-12.
- 6 out of 7 of the wins were when the opponent scored 100 points or less.
- 11 out of 12 of the losses, the opponents scored 101 points or more.

...... As the thread says, DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM. Follow the trend.... hold teams under 100 and we win 85% of our games. Let them score over 101, we lose 92% of those games.

I knew we are terrible on defense...but looking at those numbers, I don't think I can ever remember a stretch in which the Lakers were this bad on defense...not even with Cook, Walton, Smush and Kwame as part of the starting lineup.

It seems like we are getting battered every game with 110+ points....

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:44 pm

My assessment of our defensive issues (I posted it on another thread, thought it belonged in the defensive thread):

Many of our problems come from an evident lack of "chemistry" on that end. Guys making the wrong reads of each other, lacking communication, not covering one and other the way they should.. I think a lot of that lack of chemistry comes from little time on the floor together (INJURIES), changing defensive systems (3 different coaches) and maybe some guys just don't get along that well, but that isn't really what I'm focusing on. We've had LOTS of different lineups, not only because of injuries but also because we've had different coaches who like playing different guys / like experimenting with lineups.

I also believe that while defense is a team game, it takes one or two guys to take a possession off to basically kill you. That has been the case with many of our players this season, sometimes Gasol, sometimes Kobe, sometimes Nash, sometimes Jamison... One guy that doesn't do his job or makes a mistake and it becomes very tough to recover, especially if you don't really have much athleticism as a team.

Our transition D is terrible, not just because we're slow, also has to do with us taking a lot of long jumpers without proper floor balance (and not being really adept at it). Earlier in the season we turned the ball over like CRAZY.

We've got guys who make dumb fouls as well (Hill, Howard, MWP most noticeably), putting guys on the line in the wrong moments.

Basically, it boils down to -chemistry -focus/effort from every guy -transition D -playing smart (i.e. not commiting dumb fouls) -athleticism

JGC · by **JGC** on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:51 am

^ IMO, the worst offenders on the team in that department are Kobe, Gasol and Jamison. Nash tries, you see him fight through screens and stuff like that. Dwight tries, MWP tries. Those other 3 guys don't try. I think saying they 'sometimes' take a possession off is an overstatement.

To me, it's more like they 'sometimes' give effort on the defensive end and that's just unacceptable especially from two guys who have been on this team, knows what it takes to succeed and are considered leaders of this team in Kobe and Gasol.

Forklift · by **Forklift** on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:24 am

playing lazy defense is one thing, but what really pisses me off is not everyone boxes out. Most of those long rebounds we could have easily gotten if everyone would just box out. We allow how many 2nd and even 3rd chance points just because we can't grab a simple defensive rebound. It's one thing to have terrible defense, but when you allow them to have 2nd/3rd chance points off their occassional misses... :bang:

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:48 pm

JGC wrote:^ IMO, the worst offenders on the team in that department are Kobe, Gasol and Jamison. Nash tries, you see him fight through screens and stuff like that. Dwight tries, MWP tries. Those other 3 guys don't try. I think saying they 'sometimes' take a possession off is an overstatement.

To me, it's more like they 'sometimes' give effort on the defensive end and that's just unacceptable especially from two guys who have been on this team, knows what it takes to succeed and are considered leaders of this team in Kobe and Gasol.

Yeah, I think you're right.
I think Kobe gets caught roaming too often. Like others pointed out, he's played that way for years, but now he lacks the speed to recover like he used to. He's still very capable on that end, but some games he just doesn't contribute until late. I think putting him on shooters isn't a good idea. I know the coaches probably think putting him on the best or second best player would tire him out, but I think it would be worth it, because his man D is always very good. When he's asked to guard the likes of Irving/CP3/Westbrook etc he actually does a very good job. Putting him on shooters sometimes doesn't work as well because he tends to roam and try and get steals or whatever, and with him and the team not rotating well enough on a regular basis that basically kills us.
Pau and Jamison are sometimes just overpowered / ran past because they are weak/slow; still I agree they don't try hard enough.
Nash does try, and there are many instances where I find his D very adequate. However, there have been games where his D was just flat out terrible, and in key stretches of those games, like the last home game against Denver or the last one against Philly. He couldn't defend to save his life, to the point where I was thinking if keeping him out there was actually helping us. He need to be able to hide his deficiencies in such stretches more effectively.

SmoothOperator · by **SmoothOperator** on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:18 pm

In Jim Buss' interview on 710 ESPN yesterday, he openly admitted that this team's half court defense is pretty good... but the transition defense is the worst in the league.

Does he not realize the transition defense is a product of D'Antoni's offense? D'Antoni is encouraging the team to push the offensive tempo and take perimeter shots. What do you think happens when you miss a perimeter shot? The other team gets a long rebound and they come running for a transition basket.

In addition to this, the whole having Gasol hovering around the 18ft - 3pt line on offense is a problem as well. Using the latest Clippers/Lakers game as an example... Gasol was standing "where he was supposed to be" in D'Antoni's offense, which is around the 3 point line. If the Lakers miss their shot on offense and the clippers get the rebound, what happened was Gasol and Griffin get into a foot race from the 3pt line to the other side of the court.... Griffin is able to outrun Gasol (and the rest of the Laker's team since he had a head start because he was standing at the 3pt line guarding Pau) to the other basket where he catches easy, long passes in transition for a easy dunk. Tell me that did not happen about 3 times in that game.

Lakerjones · by **Lakerjones** on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:50 pm

lakerswiz wrote:I noticed that many of our defensive issues are starting at the top of the key and the wings. Our guys aren't playing help side defense at the elbows. The second to last play of the game last night....watch Artest's help side defense on Tony Parker as he drives with Nash.

Nash played really good D right there...about the best I'd expect from Nash on Parker...but Artest needed to meet him right there at the elbow so Parker couldn't penetrate. Luckily they turned it over because of Timmy D clogging up the whole joint, but with a tighter help side D at the elbows, the penetration will be cut down slightly. And with the positing of the wing offensive players, we should still be close enough to get a good close out on the shooter so we aren't just simply giving up more 3 pointers.

What's happening is we're playing the lazy helpside, the point guards / wings are getting to that elbow and then the help side defender is late and is over compensating meaning they're getting back to THEIR defensive assignment late. That either allows for the easy pull up J or they show and go and penetrate more and break down our defense further.

The players should fully understand this. They are NBA professionals. But I would want the coach to be harping this to them every single time. I want the coach of my team to have the film session tape cut into just defensive lapses and then that's all we work on in practice. And every time someone F's up, stop practice and shame them for the lack of effort. If it wasn't a lack of effort, TEACH THE PLAYER THAT IS YOUR DAMN JOB. No free throw shooting. No shooting drills. No offensive practice. Just practice the damn defense. We can score.

^^ Great breakdown Lakerswiz.

revgen · by **revgen** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:42 am

The excuse going around is that the team is suffering from injuries and that the starters have only played 9 games together. If that's the case, then why is our offense so good? We apparently don't have a problem scoring 101 points against OKC with no Pau, no D12, and no Jordan Hill.

We don't have a defensive mentality.

If we did, then we'd be like the old Spurs teams. It didn't matter if the starters were on the floor or the bench was on the floor. They all knew their assignments and rotations and played together.

k0i308v3 · by **k0i308v3** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:11 pm

revgen wrote:The excuse going around is that the team is suffering from injuries and that the starters have only played 9 games together. If that's the case, then why is our offense so good? We apparently don't have a problem scoring 101 points against OKC with no Pau, no D12, and no Jordan Hill.

We don't have a defensive mentality.

If we did, then we'd be like the old Spurs teams. It didn't matter if the starters were on the floor or the bench was on the floor. They all knew their assignments and rotations and played together.

The Spurs have Pop we have Mike, plain and simple when your coach is focused on one end of the floor your team takes on that mentality. Mike can say oh we practice oh we need more effort on defense ( This seems to be his excuse everytime ) but it is his job to get players to buy in, kind of sad that their pro players and you need to motivate them to play something they all say they love. I just don't feel like they really care outside of Dwight who is constantly frustrated with it that our defense matters. That is all a reflection of how you are coached. Mike can say what he wants to but HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS and that is the reason he has the reputation that he does.

dwighthowardsdad · by **dwighthowardsdad** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:22 pm

MDA's strength certainly isn't his defense schemes. He's not a genius in that area and we knew that when we hired him. I don't know how much of a role Person has at this time on the defense; but it sure does look like in order for MDA's system to be sucessful, he needs a defensive coordinator.

I don't see a clear scheme out there; at the times we have been successful on defense, we have funnled everything to Dwight and rotated to his man to rebound the ball. Unfortunately, help the helper hasn't been our strong suit and neither has rotating back to three-point shooters, or not communicating properly how where one is suppose to be on defense after an easy layup has been given up.

These things should be fundamental. This comes down to the coaching. I'll give MDA a chance just like I did with Brown. I do think MDA is an upgrade. He surely does need help coaching that end, though...

borri · by **borri** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Kobe's right. We are OLD.

Watched the IND, NYK game. INDY's defenders, especially the frontcourt, got into the grills of the knicks players AND was able to deny penetration to a large extent. They were quick.

Then i watched our game, it was night and day. No matter the scheme, and since we can't zone in the NBA to the extent that they do in college, you've got to be able to move your legs to play D. A LARGE part of it is youth and athleticism. We've got a 38 and 34 year PG and SG and Pau. That's THREE areas where teams can get to the paint at will. That's our problem. Our subs, Duhon and Morris (while young, plays stupid), Meeks who tries but just isn't a good defender, isn't any better.

revgen · by **revgen** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:01 pm

^I'm not buying the "old" excuse. The Spurs, Pistons, and Boston teams from the mid-00's were older teams. They didn't have a problem playing D. It's all mental.

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm

^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...

revgen · by **revgen** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...

That hasn't stopped the Knicks.

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:10 pm

revgen wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...

That hasn't stopped the Knicks.

they're not a good defensive team and are in the Leastern Conference ... not sure what is your argument here

revgen · by **revgen** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:58 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:
revgen wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:^^^^ the league has changed though ... dominated by fast and athletic perimeter players .

Old and slow are definetely part of the pb ...

That hasn't stopped the Knicks.

they're not a good defensive team and are in the Leastern Conference ... not sure what is your argument here

Their defense wasn't that bad when the old guys (Camby, Thomas, Sheed etc) were playing on the floor more. Most of their defensive lapses from what I've watched come from their young players. It's the 30+ year olds like Camby, Thomas, Sheed, etc that focus on defense more often.

hdtvset · by **hdtvset** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:03 pm

On spending 15-20 min's on defense during practice.

Lakers think if they practice more on offense, they can score more points. Which means, if they could score 120+ points, they would win those games that they lost. The KEY to win the game is still whoever get the most points wins. So, the Lakers really don't have to practice on defense, just keep practicing on offense so they can score more points than other teams. Is this their mindset?

Not that I agree with them. :man10:

But, Kobe did pick him as the coach.

Congo Cash · by **Congo Cash** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Too old, too slow, and too lazy to play D...

borri · by **borri** on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:52 pm

revgen wrote:^I'm not buying the "old" excuse. The Spurs, Pistons, and Boston teams from the mid-00's were older teams. They didn't have a problem playing D. It's all mental.

Nash v Kidd/Felton ----NYK wins by a landslide
Kobe v Kidd/Brewer ---NYK wins
MWP v Melo ----LAL wins
Pau v Camby ----NYK by a landslide
D12 v Chandler --- Tie

The only defensive matchup we win is MWP. They are old. But we are older AND slower.

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