Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:59 pm

therealdeal wrote:
So now we go into the off-season with at least the option of sign and trading these guys or bringing them back again if we strike out in free agency.


We can't strike out in free agency if those guys we are hanging onto have cap holds that take up the entire salary cap.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby trodgers on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:00 pm

Chillbongo wrote:Steve Blake ($4M) - (Bazemore ($750K) + Brooks ($1.2M)) = $2M.

If you're counting tax penalities sure. But when have we ever cared about how much the Buss's are paying?

I understand your frustration, but ultimately and objectively it's unreasonable.

This is not a team with any chance of making the playoffs. If we win EVERY game, we might make it. That's not happening. Blake can re-sign with us - and he might. Now in addition to potentially Blake we have two young guys who have at least some potential. We can audition them for the rest of the season.

We also have a savings in cash. We care about money ALWAYS - but we were willing to spend when it meant winning. It cannot possibly mean winning this year, so there is no conceivable way of thinking about this trade that it's a net loss to us. It's impossible.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:01 pm

Looking at this realistically…. it's swing and a miss number 3 or 4 with Pau…. our demands for "value" have been met with deafening silence….. I'm becoming firm in my belief that our GM is still thinking 2010 in a post 2010 market…. Getting a second and an expiring contract like Okafor is far better value than letting him expire or doing something really stupid like signing him again. The threat of the Bird Rights stuff that was "leaked" to the media smacks of a little desperation IMHO….

I think we have really been trying to unload him but the environment has changed and our playbook hasn't been updated….
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:02 pm

This should prove to everybody that the vaunted repeater tax isn't really anything when it comes to the cable money the Lakers are bringing in.

Lakers will be a tax paying team this season and that means that they will be a tax payer for 3 seasons straight. It doesn't matter if we clear enough salary not to be a tax payer next season (2014/15), cause we would still be considered a tax offender in the 2015/16 season.

So again, the repeater tax boogie man is all for naught.

That being said, we must have whiffed on trying to go below the tax apron. Trading Blake, Hill and Kaman would have gotten us there. So there was no secret that this is what we wanted to do. We failed to do it...unless you really do think our end game was Brooks/Bezamore.

Also, what LA keeps saying is that they want assets. I'm sure the city of LA is a great sell, but what else do the Lakers have to offer other than playing with Kobe Bryant, who may or may not be a shell of himself. If they wanted to get assets to attract potential FAs, they failed.

First off, there are so many limitations heading into the summer. We have cap space, but we restricted ourselves with the premature Kobe extension. Then you look at what we have left. Possibly a top 5 pick and then Bird Rights to players that we can use in a S&T. Looking at how S&Ts work, you are at the mercy of the player, since S&T under the new CBA don't have the financial perks that the old CBA had. There is less guaranteed years and flatter percentage hikes per year. We wouldn't have leverage in a S&T scenario. The player would.

So we essentially saved just enough money with the Blake move to get Jimmy a new loft in the LA Live residential district....and that's about it. We totally missed the mark on avoiding the repeater tax and now that will follow us for the next 2 seasons at the very least. We avoided to gain significant assets, unless you're smitten with Bazemore and Brooks and the bird rights to guys that barely sniffed the court with MDA at the helm. We limited our free agency flexibility with the Kobe extension.

If there is a plan, can someone please send it to the FO, cause it looks like they have no clue.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Weezy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:03 pm

@KevinDing: Kupchak: "Picks have become more valuable than ever. It used to be you could second-round picks pretty easy."


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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby CaCHooKa Man on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:05 pm

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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:07 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:This should prove to everybody that the vaunted repeater tax isn't really anything when it comes to the cable money the Lakers are bringing in.

Lakers will be a tax paying team this season and that means that they will be a tax payer for 3 seasons straight. It doesn't matter if we clear enough salary not to be a tax payer next season (2014/15), cause we would still be considered a tax offender in the 2015/16 season.

So again, the repeater tax boogie man is all for naught.

That being said, we must have whiffed on trying to go below the tax apron. Trading Blake, Hill and Kaman would have gotten us there. So there was no secret that this is what we wanted to do. We failed to do it...unless you really do think our end game was Brooks/Bezamore.

Also, what LA keeps saying is that they want assets. I'm sure the city of LA is a great sell, but what else do the Lakers have to offer other than playing with Kobe Bryant, who may or may not be a shell of himself. If they wanted to get assets to attract potential FAs, they failed.

First off, there are so many limitations heading into the summer. We have cap space, but we restricted ourselves with the premature Kobe extension. Then you look at what we have left. Possibly a top 5 pick and then Bird Rights to players that we can use in a S&T. Looking at how S&Ts work, you are at the mercy of the player, since S&T under the new CBA don't have the financial perks that the old CBA had. There is less guaranteed years and flatter percentage hikes per year. We wouldn't have leverage in a S&T scenario. The player would.

So we essentially saved just enough money with the Blake move to get Jimmy a new loft in the LA Live residential district....and that's about it. We totally missed the mark on avoiding the repeater tax and now that will follow us for the next 2 seasons at the very least. We avoided to gain significant assets, unless you're smitten with Bazemore and Brooks and the bird rights to guys that barely sniffed the court with MDA at the helm. We limited our free agency flexibility with the Kobe extension.

If there is a plan, can someone please send it to the FO, cause it looks like they have no clue.


You can bet your life that the numbers made public in the cable deal were projections based on the eyeballs on the team at that time and you can also bet that the deal includes a ton of qualifiers for revenue. The Ad business is cratering on TV anyway and the LA market is actually one of the lower for Ad revenue of the major 10 markets. If the Lakers don't at least do something to get people interested again the hoards of bandwagon fans that have pumped up the ratings in the last 12 to 15 years will disappear and the ratings related revenue will plummet….. and the payouts from the deal to the Team will plummet. Those reported numbers are only a reality if we're kicking azz and everyone is watching.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Weezy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:08 pm

@mcten: Kupchak: "It may take more than one year to build ... Because we have a lot of cap space this summer, doesn't mean we'll spend it all"


@KevinDing: Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


Yay, they're paying Kobe 24 mil for a season that might be continued rebuilding!
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby karacha on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:12 pm

I feel we failed at the deadline. Trading Blake was a good move, but the rest... yikes! We'll have to let some players walk at the end of this season.

We also failed with that contract we gave Kobe. That's pretty obvious now.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:14 pm

Ramona was on 710...Only got two things that she said

_ - Jordan Hill to the Nets was almost done last night, but Lakers waited, then Nets the next day asked for a 2nd pick to offset the Luxury Tax they would incur, Lakers refused.

- Phoenix called the Lakers at the very last minute for Pau Gasol, but still didn't offer a pick, Lakers refused.


If true, I could see why they didn't trade Hill; and Phoenix calling last minute, please. Either way, some Ding tweets that are interesting...

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 33m
Interesting that Lakers fans so badly want to accomplish something that they wanted to save Lakers' tax money more than Lakers owners did.


So much for fans wanting to get under the Tax threshold. Getting under the tax was never the Lakers organizations goals...as far as trading Steve Blake; the Lakers FO direction to me is quite clear; getting younger, more athletic at each position. Steve is older, injury prone, and we had a crowded backcourt.

Here's how Mitch said it.

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 13m
Kupchak on Blake: "It really got to the point where needed to free up some time to look at Jordan and give Kendall the time that he earned."


Pretty clear to me that Kendall and Farmar need more of an opportunity since they are younger; also, I think we're waiving Nash in and drafting a PG in this draft. Gasol will move on so there won't be any Cap Hold ruining any of our flexibility going forward.

More from Kupchack

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 8m
Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 11m
Kupchak: "Picks have become more valuable than ever. It used to be you could second-round picks pretty easy."


KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 6m
Kupchak on Magic Johnson and Lakers: "Hopefully, Earvin is looking for a second baseman."
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:16 pm

Weezy wrote:
@mcten: Kupchak: "It may take more than one year to build ... Because we have a lot of cap space this summer, doesn't mean we'll spend it all"


@KevinDing: Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


Yay, they're paying Kobe 24 mil for a season that might be continued rebuilding!


Jesus… I'm just an obsessed fan with a laptop and I knew that…. My guess is we're in a 1991 scenario… except without trade assets and picks…. oh… and in a hostile cap environment.

What he basically just said was that there will be limited FA movement, we have nothing to trade and be prepared to suck for a while.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:18 pm

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 2m
Kupchak: “The organization is not motivated by saving X amount of dollars. … We were more concerned with making a basketball deal.”


KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 43s
Kupchak said Lakers passed up opportunities to avoid luxury tax, but those deals had "no basketball components...a salary dump."
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:18 pm

Weezy wrote:
@mcten: Kupchak: "It may take more than one year to build ... Because we have a lot of cap space this summer, doesn't mean we'll spend it all"


@KevinDing: Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


Yay, they're paying Kobe 24 mil for a season that might be continued rebuilding!

Ugh, I'm banking on lipservice. Mitch isn't going to show his hand. We need to keep leverage and that means putting out conflicting messages. If that is the lunacy I need to believe to keep me from going crazy, so be it.

If not, the Lakers have absolutely NO PLAN and this team has been monumentally mismanaged.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby therealdeal on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:19 pm

lukewaltonsdad wrote:Ramona was on 710...Only got two things that she said

_ - Jordan Hill to the Nets was almost done last night, but Lakers waited, then Nets the next day asked for a 2nd pick to offset the Luxury Tax they would incur, Lakers refused.

- Phoenix called the Lakers at the very last minute for Pau Gasol, but still didn't offer a pick, Lakers refused.


If true, I could see why they didn't trade Hill; and Phoenix calling last minute, please. Either way, some Ding tweets that are interesting...

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 33m
Interesting that Lakers fans so badly want to accomplish something that they wanted to save Lakers' tax money more than Lakers owners did.


So much for fans wanting to get under the Tax threshold. Getting under the tax was never the Lakers organizations goals...as far as trading Steve Blake; the Lakers FO direction to me is quite clear; getting younger, more athletic at each position. Steve is older, injury prone, and we had a crowded backcourt.

Here's how Mitch said it.

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 13m
Kupchak on Blake: "It really got to the point where needed to free up some time to look at Jordan and give Kendall the time that he earned."


Pretty clear to me that Kendall and Farmar need more of an opportunity since they are younger; also, I think we're waiving Nash in and drafting a PG in this draft. Gasol will move on so there won't be any Cap Hold ruining any of our flexibility going forward.

More from Kupchack

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 8m
Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 11m
Kupchak: "Picks have become more valuable than ever. It used to be you could second-round picks pretty easy."


KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 6m
Kupchak on Magic Johnson and Lakers: "Hopefully, Earvin is looking for a second baseman."

Nice post.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:20 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Weezy wrote:
@mcten: Kupchak: "It may take more than one year to build ... Because we have a lot of cap space this summer, doesn't mean we'll spend it all"


@KevinDing: Kupchak: "I don’t think we’ll we use our cap money to patch together a team for next year...May take more than 1 yr to build, I don’t know."


Yay, they're paying Kobe 24 mil for a season that might be continued rebuilding!


Jesus… I'm just an obsessed fan with a laptop and I knew that…. My guess is we're in a 1991 scenario… except without trade assets and picks…. oh… and in a hostile cap environment.

What he basically just said was that there will be limited FA movement, we have nothing to trade and be prepared to suck for a while.


This all day long...we have to be patient. We're attempting to maneuver through this CBA and it's proving to be a great challenge. We have to take more time draft wisely, take time to develop these younger players, and choose wisely in who we invest in the future as FA's. This is not an easy process. Hill and Kaman couldn't even get us 2nd round draft picks...it's the way it is.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Some of the challenges we face are from our own doing....

Everybody is entitled to their opinion....but some of the stuff Mitch says is just to minimize backlash. The Lakers are not about salary dumps, then please explain to me the Sasha/1st deal for Joe Smith. We've seen salary dumps before....we're not naive.

Nothing against Brooks/Bazemore, but there is a reason Blake, Kaman and Hill were all in trade talks. There is a reason Pau was too, even though its harder to get rid of that type of money without getting some money back on the payroll.

Its because we were trying to dump salary.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:26 pm

trodgers wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:Steve Blake ($4M) - (Bazemore ($750K) + Brooks ($1.2M)) = $2M.

If you're counting tax penalities sure. But when have we ever cared about how much the Buss's are paying?

I understand your frustration, but ultimately and objectively it's unreasonable.

This is not a team with any chance of making the playoffs. If we win EVERY game, we might make it. That's not happening. Blake can re-sign with us - and he might. Now in addition to potentially Blake we have two young guys who have at least some potential. We can audition them for the rest of the season.

We also have a savings in cash. We care about money ALWAYS - but we were willing to spend when it meant winning. It cannot possibly mean winning this year, so there is no conceivable way of thinking about this trade that it's a net loss to us. It's impossible.

I get it. But let's look at it this way. So we got a couple of 3rd string players for a legitimately solid backup point guard. Given that the return on Blake was short term contracts at low salary, you're telling me there was no such deal possible for Kaman?

We were looking for short term salary, a 2nd round pick, or a TPE/DPE. That wasn't available for Kaman? If money saving was the motive, Blake was the only option?
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:29 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Some of the challenges we face are from our own doing....

Everybody is entitled to their opinion....but some of the stuff Mitch says is just to minimize backlash. The Lakers are not about salary dumps, then please explain to me the Sasha/1st deal for Joe Smith. We've seen salary dumps before....we're not naive.

Nothing against Brooks/Bazemore, but there is a reason Blake, Kaman and Hill were all in trade talks. There is a reason Pau was too, even though its harder to get rid of that type of money without getting some money back on the payroll.

Its because we were trying to dump salary.


yup…. three strikes….

Mitch seems to be still playing it like we're looking for a good 7th guy and we have the upper hand…. He's always been very cautious but that's not what's needed now. It's not like a "mistake" will keep us from winning championship…. hell we might not even have a winning season in Kobe's window. Moves create more moves and we just seem poised to grab another 5 or 6 vet min guys and wait for the 2015 plan…. or 2016 plan…. or 2017….
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:39 pm

^I don't know Roo. How much more of a winning window would we have gotten with a 2nd round pick, even if we got the Nets/Suns to budge? You really think that would have turned the tables?

The reality is we would have been in this situation no matter what. At least now we retain bird rights with the possibility of keeping Hill, and the opportunity to sign and trade Pau should something worthwhile be available.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:45 pm

^^^ That's easy. We aren't threatened with having to resign Pau and pass on younger, better players.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby khmrP on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Weezy wrote:
@KevinDing: Kupchak: "Picks have become more valuable than ever. It used to be you could second-round picks pretty easy."


Aw, you're breakin' my heart Mitch, it's ok, you tried real hard I'm sure.


Mitch, go ask Philly GM for pointers :man10: , Phi got 10 of them in the next 2 years :freak2:
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:07 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Some of the challenges we face are from our own doing....

Everybody is entitled to their opinion....but some of the stuff Mitch says is just to minimize backlash. The Lakers are not about salary dumps, then please explain to me the Sasha/1st deal for Joe Smith. We've seen salary dumps before....we're not naive.

Nothing against Brooks/Bazemore, but there is a reason Blake, Kaman and Hill were all in trade talks. There is a reason Pau was too, even though its harder to get rid of that type of money without getting some money back on the payroll.

Its because we were trying to dump salary.


I've seen some of your posts...you know your Lakers and your history probably more so than 90% of the people here...I respect that. I'll also add one for you that was supposed to be a salary dump...Fisher and a 1st for Jordan Hill, right? In this case, I would have to disagree...I call it 'salary cap preservation.' We're getting rid of dead weight to have tryout auditions for essentially what is a lost season.

Farmar and Marshall deserve the time on the floor to see if they have a future with us or not...their both on one year rentals; Is Marshall for real? Can Farmar stay healthy enough to show us what he has? Can we roll with these guys into the offseason without having to draft a PG in the draft and address other holes on our roster through FA? I still think we draft PG, though, IMO. But we may be able to hold off on that in this draft and provide other needs that we do have on this roster...Farmar and Marshall are young and inexpensive.

As far as flexibility going forward, Paul will move on and our flexibility will not be hampered. Besides, who else is in this FA class that we really want? Carmelo? According to Ding, and Stephen A, the Lakers aren't 'enamored with him.' I think we pass, fill some holes this offseason, and save our Max Slot for Love next year...just my .002 cents...
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:35 pm

Respect your 0.002 cents and appreciate the kind words, but I'm going to chime in with my dime cent.

We made Kobe the highest paid player for the next 2 seasons. You make that type of investment, not to validate a cable deal (but maybe they are), but to win now. You don't make that type of move just to distract the masses while you rebuild (but maybe they are).

Now with the Blake deal...here's what Kob said:
Not cool with @SteveBlake5 being gone AT ALL One of my closest teammates and psycho competitor GS picked up gem #smartmove—
Kobe Bryant (@kobebryant) February 20, 2014


So what management states is that they try to make this move to bring along Marshall and Farmar. First of all, the Lakers passed on Farmar in the not too distant past, so I'm not buying that one. Secondly, Marshall appears to be the most useful when he has the ball in his hands. How does that play out when Kobe comes back? How does that play out when MDA gets axed?

You have a huge expiring in Pau. Normally what that does is get a disgruntled star or a 2nd tier star on a contract that the other team does not want to commit to.

What does LA do? LA targeted Bynum (expiring) and Okafor (expiring). In both cases, LA would have also saved substantial money. They wanted those pieces, but also wanted to sell the fans with "assets" that they can see here and now. But why trade expiring for expiring?

Its cause they were hoping for at least some GM to relent on a throw in. After all, that is how we discovered Shannon Brown. But why even go that route?

Obviously its for flexibility this summer and the immediate period afterwards....but then why re-up Kobe in the fashion they did if flexibility is the holy grail?

Truth is, the Lakers could have traded Pau for some assets on longer contracts that could have helped us contend right now, but a top pick and saving max money for "namers" is just too hard to turn down. After all, if they ain't "namers" the guys that run that cable company ain't happy.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby OX1947 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:45 pm

Looks like Mitch is going to do what I thought the Lakers were going to do. Barring a surprise, franchise changing trade from a super star who wants to come to LA, I see the Lakers doing this for the next 2 years:

Let's say they end up with Wiggins or Embiid.

Then, this off season will be to fill the roster up with good players and thats it.

Come summer of 2015, wait for Kevin Love to opt out and offer him the max

Than, wait the following year for Kobe's money to come off the books, and wait for Kyrie Irving to opt out and sign him to the max.

Thats what I see. Kobe will not win another title as a Laker unfortunately.
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Re: Trade Deadline Discussion: reports, rumors, ruminations

Postby Weezy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:51 pm

I agree with a lot of the last 2 posts, why give Kobe that deal if we're just waiting to rebuild after he's gone? Eh, I hope Kobe enjoys that money, because even though I had a feeling before, now I'm pretty sure it's compensation for the Lakers not being able to get another championship team around him.
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