TrueHoop TV: David Thorpe on Lakers Defense

revgen · by **revgen** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:39 am

The Rock wrote:
revgen wrote:
The Rock wrote:
revgen wrote:Time?

1/4 of the season is already over and we're 7 games behind the Clippers. We don't have time to "figure it out". We need to get our crap together now. We have to get to .500 by early January if we're going to have a chance to enter the 1st round with home court advantage.

How can you not take these extra variables like injuries and missing players into consideration come on? You're ridiculous. Its not like we've had our guys here the whole time and its been a sinking ship, they've played together for 6 damn quarters together.

I don't care who is injured. A team with a healthy MWP, Kobe, D12, and Jamison shouldn't be 4 games under .500 and being embarrassed by a 4 win Cavs team.

How do you justify this loss by a 38-19 Lakers team to the same Cavs team in 2011 that had lost 26 in a row at one point that had no Varejao and was 10-46 at that time

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Ag_I5WYrhm95EAHJAw5vQUohPaB4?gid=2011021605

Bynum: 22 mins 2/12 FG 6 points, 6rebs, 5 fouls vs JJ Hickson.

Bad loses happen is what Im trying to say, losing streaks happen (we've lost 8 of our last 9 @CLE btw), slumps happen, unfortunately its happening in the beginning of the year and when our team is not healthy

How do I justify a loss? That's what you do. Not me. A loss is a loss.

If you honestly believe that a team with a healthy Kobe, MWP, D12, and Jamison are just fine being 4 games under .500, then we're going to have to agree to disagree. We're not going to find common ground here.

The Rock · by **The Rock** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 am

You're just not taking the other factors as to why they're under .500 into consideration. All loses are equal in the standings if you want to keep it simple like that but its not, the way we lose and how we lost is just as important

The Rock · by **The Rock** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 am

You're just not taking the other factors as to why they're under .500 into consideration. All loses are equal in the standings if you want to keep it simple like that but its not, the way we lose and how we lost is just as important

ThizGuy83 · by **ThizGuy83** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:05 am

This is brandonr2001's analysis on the Lakers defense: ......................................... End of article. Will submit article to ESPN.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:13 am

The Rock wrote:Fans like you around here and really making me question whether you actually like the Lakers, because if you were you'd support the team through thick and thin, especially the new guys, not kick them when they're down.

This from you is just about the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...... Review your own posts in the Bynum thread from last May to see the incredible irony......

How am I not supporting the team? I just pointed out the absurdity in some of the comments around here (a lot of it by you) when we were evaluating what Howard could do for us. You threw those very terms back at me then..... where is your "evaluation" now that we all now know that it wasn't our center last year that was the defensive liability that you and others thought he was. Or is it still the "when he's in shape" excuse? This isn't about Howard anyway.... if you actually read my entire posts before the estrogen started flowing you'd see that I've been calling out the entire defensive philosophy and the lack of TEAM on that end of the floor for about 2 years..... not singling out one person to go on an ALL CAPS attack fest on. Howard is better than our previous center as a help defender but he isn't good enough to compensate for the lack of team defensive philosophy or effort.

As for questioning my fandom.... if you don't want to read a cerebral approach to evaluation try the ignore button. It works for me with the exception that If people would quit quoting your knee jerk emotional posts I wouldn't see them at all.....

revgen · by **revgen** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:30 am

thkthebest wrote:And, nobody helps Howard. Howard sometimes helps too much, but nobody consistently helps Howard except maybe Hill. It's really mind-boggling. The same crap happens every game. How in the world do you not adjust? I really don't get it.

Helping the helper has been an issue for the 2 previous seasons. The excuse was always that our last center was "too slow". Can't accuse Dwight of being slow, so we really need to be honest about these rotations for once and stop beating around the bush.

I hope they start looking at themselves in the mirror and taking full responsibility. I don't see us winning another championship if we don't.

ThizGuy83 · by **ThizGuy83** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:33 am

revgen wrote:
thkthebest wrote:And, nobody helps Howard. Howard sometimes helps too much, but nobody consistently helps Howard except maybe Hill. It's really mind-boggling. The same crap happens every game. How in the world do you not adjust? I really don't get it.

Helping the helper has been an issue for the 2 previous seasons. The excuse was always that our last center was "too slow". Can't accuse Dwight of being slow, so we really need to be honest about these rotations for once and stop beating around the bush.

sometimes I see Dwight gettin mad cuz when he goes and helps. Nobody is helping him. That's why the defense is all crap cuz nobody back each other up.

The Rock · by **The Rock** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:39 am

Rooscooter wrote:
The Rock wrote:Fans like you around here and really making me question whether you actually like the Lakers, because if you were you'd support the team through thick and thin, especially the new guys, not kick them when they're down.

This from you is just about the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...... Review your own posts in the Bynum thread from last May to see the incredible irony......

How am I not supporting the team? I just pointed out the absurdity in some of the comments around here (a lot of it by you) when we were evaluating what Howard could do for us. You threw those very terms back at me then..... where is your "evaluation" now that we all now know that it wasn't our center last year that was the defensive liability that you and others thought he was. Or is it still the "when he's in shape" excuse? This isn't about Howard anyway.... if you actually read my entire posts before the estrogen started flowing you'd see that I've been calling out the entire defensive philosophy and the lack of TEAM on that end of the floor for about 2 years..... not singling out one person to go on an ALL CAPS attack fest on. Howard is better than our previous center as a help defender but he isn't good enough to compensate for the lack of team defensive philosophy or effort.

As for questioning my fandom.... if you don't want to read a cerebral approach to evaluation try the ignore button. It works for me with the exception that If people would quit quoting your knee jerk emotional posts I wouldn't see them at all.....

You know what absurd is? Completely dismissing his DPOY awards, blocks, steals, his post up production, etc and that "Stats lie" simply because it doesn't help your argument that Howard is not better than Bynum. Youv'e done that over the months in that huge thread

And like Ive said numerous times before even before Howard got here, I would still keep Bynum over him even if hes the lesser of two players if he wasn't so damn inconsistent and wishy washy with his effort and committment to our team. It came to a point that Drew was doing his own things and he wasn't bringing enough things to the table that would help us win a championship and hence I was advocating a trade...goes for Lamar too over the years just like plenty of people here we all wanted him traded if there is a better alternative out there that can improve our team not with some agenda like you have.

Ive read your posts over the months i know enough to know you never wanted Howard here and the funny thing is you still haven't answered the two basic questions I posed earlier in this thread

1) Do you want Howard to help us succeed or not? Do you support him?

2) Do you want him to fail so that you can say we would've been better off without Howard

dwighthowardsdad · by **dwighthowardsdad** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:01 am

Unfortunately, all 5 guys out there playing aren't on the same page. Whether it be effort or scheme, we look confused, disorganized, & lost. You can't put that on one person. This comes down to coaching. He has to make the team accountable and implement a defensive phillosphy that these players can effectively run.

With MDA's pace on offense, our opposition is consuming more possessions and since we're shooting more three's, when we miss the other team is already on the other end getting a layup; turnovers also cause this problem. We're not quick enough to get back because we're slow. Our halfcourt defense is just as bad. Rotations, lack of communication, uncontested layups?

If MDA can't address these problem, then he should get a defensive coordinator who could. It's amazing where were talking about Nate Mcmilliam, and whatever happened? MDA needs a Kurt Ramis because we're not getting anywhere with this defensive mentality.

revgen · by **revgen** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:01 am

The Rock wrote:
And like Ive said numerous times before even before Howard got here, I would still keep Bynum over him even if hes the lesser of two players if he wasn't so damn inconsistent and wishy washy with his effort and committment to our team.

And most of his "effort and consistency" was criticized because of his defense. Despite the fact that he was playing in a dumb scheme that had him chasing guards at the 3pt line which we've thankfully done away with since Howard has come here. We funnel to our shotblocker now. However, the same crap rotations from the guys who are supposed to be helping the helper is still there. It wasn't Bynum's "effort and consistency" as much as it was the scheme and the awful support he'd receive when he did help.

With D12 here, thankfully the excuses have to stop. Can't blame the "slow lazy center" anymore.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:18 am

We should count the "wide open dudes" in tonight's game.

John3:16 · by **John3:16** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:44 am

trodgers wrote:We should count the "wide open dudes" in tonight's game.

Ron should've changed his name to this instead of MWP.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:48 am

John3:16 wrote:
trodgers wrote:We should count the "wide open dudes" in tonight's game.

Ron should've changed his name to this instead of MWP.

Ron should have changed his name to "wide open dudes"?

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:53 am

trodgers wrote:We should count the "wide open dudes" in tonight's game.

We might need the National Debt Clock to keep track before it's all said and done......

Lakerjones · by **Lakerjones** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:57 am

dwighthowardsdad wrote:Unfortunately, all 5 guys out there playing aren't on the same page. Whether it be effort or scheme, we look confused, disorganized, & lost. You can't put that on one person. This comes down to coaching. He has to make the team accountable and implement a defensive phillosphy that these players can effectively run.

With MDA's pace on offense, our opposition is consuming more possessions and since we're shooting more three's, when we miss the other team is already on the other end getting a layup; turnovers also cause this problem. We're not quick enough to get back because we're slow. Our halfcourt defense is just as bad. Rotations, lack of communication, uncontested layups?

If MDA can't address these problem, then he should get a defensive coordinator who could. It's amazing where were talking about Nate Mcmilliam, and whatever happened? MDA needs a Kurt Ramis because we're not getting anywhere with this defensive mentality.

^^ Excellent post on the topic at hand. :bow:

I agree all the way. To me it seems like Antoni is not willing to change. He's still all about offense. And more uptempo offense being the answer to any woes whatsoever. When asked after the Cavs game what is wrong with the team he said he didn't know and if he had the solution he would do it. But then when pushed about the problem again, he said "we're playing too slow . . ." Again, his answer was about the offense not the defense, which is the glaring issue.

I liked Chuck Person's defensive scheme that he implemented in Phil's last year where they funneled everything to Bynum. Bynum was basically told to play like Dwight Howard - defend the post, block shots and rebound. For quite a while it worked and we went on that 17-1 run.

I'm not sure what's going on with Antoni, whether he is utilizing Chuck Person as defensive coordinator, or not. If he is he needs to let him spend more time with the guys getting their scheme together. They don't look like they have a cohesive plan on defense. Maybe they don't. It wouldn't surprise me if Antoni is spending all of the players time and energy on the offense as that is the important thing to him.

I would hope that Antoni would have more flexibility and learn from past mistakes. I just don't know. If he spends no time on the D, and if he doesn't have someone really running the defensive strategy ala Chuck Person, then I don't expect much to change in that regard. It looks to me like a coaching issue right now.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:21 pm

The Rock wrote:
1) Do you want Howard to help us succeed or not? Do you support him?

2) Do you want him to fail so that you can say we would've been better off without Howard

What makes you think I wouldn't want him to succeed? It seems like a cute little ploy to get the Bynum/Howard crap started again. I couldn't care less about Bynum..... he isn't a Laker. I don't know how to say that any plainer so I hope you get it this time.

Why would my answers be any different than they were last year? You are the one that seems to have a new answer for each situation based on who knows what is crossing your mind at that time.... Howard can help this team win a championship but he won't lead us there IMHO.... pretty much what I said last year. I also said Bynum wouldn't lead us there either as well.... Centers don't lead teams in this league anymore and very very few every did in fact.

If you have read sooooo many of my posts tell me how I compared the idea of getting Howard if it were more or less a straight up trade..... then compare that to your opinions when it was Bynum and Pau for Howard and garbage.... Howard is a better all around player... I hope he succeeds but I'm also not blind to the facts that he's not the most dedicated player to his craft and that he isn't as good as his waaaay over the top billing on defense. I think if everyones eyes are open and their pride was set aside they see that for themselves.

DPOY awards, along with most other awards are the product of Agents and Sportswriters.... 20 years ago we didn't have Players of the Week..... or month..... then we did.... then it was "Conference Players of the Week and Month"..... This crap dilutes the game to the point where it isn't about the game any longer it's about the stat or the award.... What's next?.... Participation Ribbons?....

I'm not quite sure how any of us were able to actually even understand the game back in the 70's when they didn't have any of these experts telling us who was good and who wasn't.... we are so lucky now... we no longer have to actually understand the game or have had to play it.... we can just go to a site and check the stats and look for the awards and we are instantly basketball intelligent..... Then run to a blog, Twitter or a Forum and then convey that new found knowledge to everyone else as the FACT that it is....

As for Howard's vaunted defensive capabilities. The 2008 Orlando team must have had better defenders than our current team because they were much better overall in defense.... Yet we have Artest and Kobe who have been AWARDED numerous times for their defense and put on the massively important ALL DEFENSIVE teams multiple times each....

I've said this quite a few times as well..... Defense is not an individual aspect of the game. I can only assume from your blathering on and on about stats and awards that you have never played organized/coached basketball. The entire game is set up around offense and defense can only be effective through a team effort. Players get recognized for being great defenders but that's an extremely short sighted way of looking at it and you'd know that if you had played or coached the game before.

A very clear example of this is when Howard chases shots (altering them or blocking them). He leaves his man to chase a shot attempt or cover for a toasted perimeter defender and will alter a shot..... the announcers and some fans will exclaim what a great play it was.... then we give up an offensive rebound and put back... Any defensive play that results in the other team scoring isn't "great" no matter how many great individual plays occurred during the possession. That's the point I make again and again here. Without the team rotations behind him or the recognition of the situation the altering and blocking of shots is mostly for naught..... except in the stat books....

JGC · by **JGC** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:28 pm

The Rock wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
The Rock wrote:Fans like you around here and really making me question whether you actually like the Lakers, because if you were you'd support the team through thick and thin, especially the new guys, not kick them when they're down.

This from you is just about the funniest thing I've read on here in a while...... Review your own posts in the Bynum thread from last May to see the incredible irony......

How am I not supporting the team? I just pointed out the absurdity in some of the comments around here (a lot of it by you) when we were evaluating what Howard could do for us. You threw those very terms back at me then..... where is your "evaluation" now that we all now know that it wasn't our center last year that was the defensive liability that you and others thought he was. Or is it still the "when he's in shape" excuse? This isn't about Howard anyway.... if you actually read my entire posts before the estrogen started flowing you'd see that I've been calling out the entire defensive philosophy and the lack of TEAM on that end of the floor for about 2 years..... not singling out one person to go on an ALL CAPS attack fest on. Howard is better than our previous center as a help defender but he isn't good enough to compensate for the lack of team defensive philosophy or effort.

As for questioning my fandom.... if you don't want to read a cerebral approach to evaluation try the ignore button. It works for me with the exception that If people would quit quoting your knee jerk emotional posts I wouldn't see them at all.....

You know what absurd is? Completely dismissing his DPOY awards, blocks, steals, his post up production, etc and that "Stats lie" simply because it doesn't help your argument that Howard is not better than Bynum. Youv'e done that over the months in that huge thread

And like Ive said numerous times before even before Howard got here, I would still keep Bynum over him even if hes the lesser of two players if he wasn't so damn inconsistent and wishy washy with his effort and committment to our team. It came to a point that Drew was doing his own things and he wasn't bringing enough things to the table that would help us win a championship and hence I was advocating a trade...goes for Lamar too over the years just like plenty of people here we all wanted him traded if there is a better alternative out there that can improve our team not with some agenda like you have.

Ive read your posts over the months i know enough to know you never wanted Howard here and the funny thing is you still haven't answered the two basic questions I posed earlier in this thread

1) Do you want Howard to help us succeed or not? Do you support him?

2) Do you want him to fail so that you can say we would've been better off without Howard

The Rock, just my $0.02 here but I think you completely misinterpreted Roos' post. There may be some personal history between you two I'm not privy to. But, from my perspective, his post was a facetious post intended to show that a single individual, cannot just come in and alter an entire team's defensive capabilities. Even if he is a beast and former DPOY.

It didn't feel like an attack on D12 at all from my vantage point. If anything, it seemed like it was a salute to his skills as a defender and more of an attack on this team as a whole not working together to best leverage what he brings to the table defensively.

I don't know, I don't Roos, maybe I'm wrong but that's just how I read it.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:38 pm

JGC wrote:The Rock, just my $0.02 here but I think you completely misinterpreted Roos' post. There may be some personal history between you two I'm not privy to. But, from my perspective, his post was a facetious post intended to show that a single individual, cannot just come in and alter an entire team's defensive capabilities. Even if he is a beast and former DPOY.

It didn't feel like an attack on D12 at all from my vantage point. If anything, it seemed like it was a salute to his skills as a defender and more of an attack on this team as a whole not working together to best leverage what he brings to the table defensively.

I don't know, I don't Roos, maybe I'm wrong but that's just how I read it.

Gets it..... :man10:

For the record.... I don't think Howard is as good as his billing on defense..... no one could be when you listen to the hype surrounding him over the years. The NBA and it's partners over hype players (LeBron anyone?) to create mega stars to market the game..... Everyone needs to remember that the so called Sports Journalists are actually work for business partners of the league and their very jobs rely on that hype.

There are a number here that will use the cap locks when repeating that hype and you've may have stumbled across one now...... :man12:

Howard is the best defensive center in the league but I'd say that he has a few chinks in the armor when it comes to recognizing situations and he needs to figure out a way to create a team defensive approach with our team. He helps us, no doubt, but at the same time he isn't going to stop 5 guys while our aging vets stand in place panting from having to play huge minutes in a system that doesn't fit them..... The disappointing part was hearing some of those very vets mouth similar thought during the offseason....

borri · by **borri** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:23 pm

I am gonna jump the gun and not watch the video and say this: Our defense. it sucks.

V.V.V.V.V. · by **V.V.V.V.V.** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:45 pm

I hate to say it, but the Lakers look like the D'Antoni Knicks right now. Talented but misutilized, and turnstiles on defense. I hope it doesn't take the FO as long as it took the Knicks to get rid of you know who.

Forward Three · by **Forward Three** on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:24 pm

Thorpe is right. Lakers have virtually no unity and possession to possession feels like reinventing the wheel/figuring out what to do. Occasionally they'll have 2 or 3 possessions in a row where they all kind of go 'oh yeah, basketball, I remember this', but it's no more indicative of an identity forming than a teenager wearing leather pants and dying their hair purple.

What really smarts though and makes me extremely pessimistic that things will improve is that the Lakers have so many seasoned players on their team who simply are not about to be able to breakdown and relearn everything they have already deeply engrained into their style of play. You'd like to think this would be what separates the men from the boys professionally and these guys are all professionals and should be able to adapt and learn on the fly, but pretty much the only times that happens are when you have rare and unique coaches who 'get it'.

Ultimately, completely average players can still be made into key aspects of a championship team so long as they can play comfortably and confidently. We haven't seen that at all this year save for the couple of blowout wins we had(weird, huh?)

The sad part is that what is killing LA defensively is also poison offensively, and many of this team's turnovers are a direct result of simply not knowing where and when players are supposed to be somewhere, or otherwise getting stuck with the ball because rotations and movements are happening that you're not entirely sure about.

(of course many of hte turnovers are straight up terrible passes, fundamentally speaking)

This team just doesn't seem PREPARED on any given night. I honestly, with 100% sincerity, question that they are even practicing all that hard or taking practice seriously. They're just so unbelievably dulled. You couldn't cut warm butter with how little of an edge they have.

Makes you really appreciate what Phil brought to this franchise on an entirely different level.

TrueHoop TV: David Thorpe on Lakers Defense

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