What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby jjin28 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:17 pm

I used to be in the majority that Jim Buss is an idiot and is taking us down a slippery slope..But after rethinking, what exactly did he do wrong? Yes we lost Dwight. But... What did we lose to get Dwight? We only lost Bynum. An Andrew Bynum that didn't even play one single minute this past year in the last year of his contract due to injury. Had we kept him, we would have been stuck with the decision at this very moment to contemplate whether we re-sign an injured player who didn't play a single minute.

That would have been more disastrous. If we signed him, we handcuff ourselves from being a dominant market player after this seaason with tons of capspace. If we didnt resign bynum at this time, we would still be over the cap, and all hell would be breaking loose and people would be complaining that we are not giving kobe his last chances in his waning years. Lakers knew that Bynum was not a player to be re-signed, he is not the future of this franchise. Now rewinding...you make that trade for Dwight over and over and over again. At least with the Dwight trade, you gave Kobe a chance to win a championship this past year. Yea we can all say now that it didn't work out, but 99% of the people here thought we had a legitimate shot at the finals last year with the acquisition of Dwight. So did Jim buss.

Acquiring dwight gave us 2 positive options. 1) successfully re-sign Dwight the following year and have one major franchise piece with tons of capspace to attract ONE additional marquee player next year to set the franchise straight for another decade, all while what we all thought to have a legitimate shot at the finals in the 12-13 season. 2) Lose Dwight, and have the capspace to sign TWO marquee players next year. Yea, you can say that chances are slim that we get even one marquee player next year, but again, would you rather have been left with BYNUM???? They went all in last year to win a ship, it failed, Dwight left, but we have no handcuffs next year. So.....am i wrong in now seeing that Jimmy boy did no wrong?
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Weezy on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:34 pm

What did he do wrong... last season? If that's your question you'll mainly get "hiring Pringles". If you mean overall, quite a bit, and you'll get plenty of answers.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby lakersyunowin on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:35 pm

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sorry, i mostly just wanted to use that gif :man10:
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby WilliamHaven on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:36 pm

For me personally, it's not so much player decisions, etc.

Other than some limited involvement in years past (while Dr. Buss was still the head honcho)...he basically introduced us to him by going out of his way to distance the Lakers/Lakers future from Phil Jackson and anyone/anything related to Phil for ego's sake. The guy that brought your family owned business multiple championships, perennial winning, and essentially a lot of profit. Not to mention someone who the fans love

That's a pretty bold "hey how are ya" to Laker fans. And there was no real reason for it. Do I think he will be fine moving forward? Sure, but he basically gave a REALLY bad first impression.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Center Court on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:44 pm

I'm one who doesn't blame Jim Buss as much as most. Overall, he's made some great moves.

1) Drafting Bynum
2) Trading for CP3 but nixed
3) Trading for Nash (if D12 stays it's still a great trade)
4) Trading for Dwight

where everything went wrong was not hiring Phil out of ego. Phil would have meshed everything and IMO if we did what we did this offeason by adding Young/Farmar/Johnson (I'll assume mMLE goes to Wright) then i think we would win the ring.

I think he also went about recruiting Dwight the wrong way but IMO that was over before it started.

Clearly coaching moves are not his strong suit. Otherwise, I can't overlook the good while judging to harshly.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:46 pm

Meet me at your nearest watering hole and give me exactly one minute and I'll do my best Barney explanation as to what Jimmy did wrong.

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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Weezy on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:48 pm

After re-reading your post, it occurred to me I don't really know who you are referring to when asking what he did wrong, as in who is blaming him for Dwight? Who even mentions Dwight around here anymore? Personally I'm glad Dwight walked, and I like our backup cap space plan. I think most here are over Dwight and not really down on Jim right now as well. If you want to talk what has he done wrong overall, here's a particularly harsh article. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I do agree with some big points.

http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/how-jim-buss-lost-howard-and-destroyed-the-lakers-steps-t138364.html
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:12 pm

I agree that we dodged a bullet when Dwight didn't resign. He was the wrong guy to be the face of the franchise, and the wrong guy to play with Kobe during his twilight years. But I don't believe that Jimmy should get kudos for that.

Suppose that Dwight WAS the right guy for the franchise going forward. Then Jimmy really messed it up for us big-time. He tried to woo Dwight with billboards that made it look like we were desperate. He pissed Dwight off by bringing in Kobe, the teammate he is jealous of, to the meeting and lets him patronize Dwight. He brings in the coach he never should have hired, MDA, to the meeting, as a vote of confidence for MDA over Dwight's wishes. He won't let Phil and Jeannie go to the meeting, despite Dwight likes and respects them both, and would probably let Phil talk some sense into him. Can you imagine Jerry West doing the same to Shaq? Or Jerry Buss?

So whether or not Dwight was the right guy for us, Jimmy completely mishandled the whole situation, and is responsible for him leaving. I'm convinced that a better coach, and a better pitch to Dwight about how he was going to get the keys to the organization soon, despite what Kobe says when he's feeling competitive, would have sealed the deal. And I don't believe that Mitch and Jimmy wanted Dwight gone, so they [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] the pitch to drive him away. It was clear that they wanted him, and believed that signing Dwight was better for the Lakers than not, and giving him time to grow to appreciate the Lakers was the best bet. But even if Jimmy did sabotage the meeting on purpose, because he didn't like Dwight anymore, that again is the wrong move. Signing Dwight and letting him attract other marquis players would have been better than having no one, with the possibility of flipping him for some other star if it doesn't work out.

My belief is that it was Jimmy's insistence on keeping his coach choice, MDA, that drove Dwight away. He was beligerent enough to bring MDA to the meeting, even when anyone could have told him that it was a bad choice. I don't know why Kobe was invited either, since it would clearly rub salt on the wound. Jimmy should have insisted that Kobe stand down. Overall, the whole thing was IMO completely mishandled.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby jellyroll49 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:21 pm

Mike Brown
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby 432J on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:40 pm

aside from the coaching debacles which i'll get into, the guy really hasn't made any bad moves

he's the one who was instrumental in persuading the team to draft bynum instead of sean may in '05, pau in '08, had cp3 for a minute before the veto, and acquired nash and dwight. and even though dwight walked, we only lost bynum who missed the entire year. moving on

buss's downfall and the reason why he gets all the crap he does is because of his decisions when hiring head coaches

hires rudy t in '04 only for him to resign midseason due to "health concerns" while settling with him for $10 million

phil resigns in '11 and in an effort to completely clean out the organization of everything phil-related, he hires mike brown over guys like brian shaw and rick adelman. without ever consulting kobe

fires brown after a season and 5 games and passes over phil for mike d'antoni to "bring showtime back to LA" obviously this is the move that stands out the most and is the reason why everyone hates him
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby TIME on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:58 pm

Yeah, I'll agree that on roster decisions he has been mostly solid.

His five glaring errors = Mike Brown / Pringles / not hiring Adelman / not hiring Phil / not hiring Shaw.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby purp n gold on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:37 am

We have it on good authority that the coaching selections have been made by Jim.

Rudy T., Mike Brown, Mike D'Antoni

All bad choices. Those are three things he's done wrong and it's affected the fortunes of our franchise.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Center Court on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:01 am

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:I agree that we dodged a bullet when Dwight didn't resign. He was the wrong guy to be the face of the franchise, and the wrong guy to play with Kobe during his twilight years. But I don't believe that Jimmy should get kudos for that.

Suppose that Dwight WAS the right guy for the franchise going forward. Then Jimmy really messed it up for us big-time. He tried to woo Dwight with billboards that made it look like we were desperate. He pissed Dwight off by bringing in Kobe, the teammate he is jealous of, to the meeting and lets him patronize Dwight. He brings in the coach he never should have hired, MDA, to the meeting, as a vote of confidence for MDA over Dwight's wishes. He won't let Phil and Jeannie go to the meeting, despite Dwight likes and respects them both, and would probably let Phil talk some sense into him. Can you imagine Jerry West doing the same to Shaq? Or Jerry Buss?

So whether or not Dwight was the right guy for us, Jimmy completely mishandled the whole situation, and is responsible for him leaving. I'm convinced that a better coach, and a better pitch to Dwight about how he was going to get the keys to the organization soon, despite what Kobe says when he's feeling competitive, would have sealed the deal. And I don't believe that Mitch and Jimmy wanted Dwight gone, so they [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] the pitch to drive him away. It was clear that they wanted him, and believed that signing Dwight was better for the Lakers than not, and giving him time to grow to appreciate the Lakers was the best bet. But even if Jimmy did sabotage the meeting on purpose, because he didn't like Dwight anymore, that again is the wrong move. Signing Dwight and letting him attract other marquis players would have been better than having no one, with the possibility of flipping him for some other star if it doesn't work out.

My belief is that it was Jimmy's insistence on keeping his coach choice, MDA, that drove Dwight away. He was beligerent enough to bring MDA to the meeting, even when anyone could have told him that it was a bad choice. I don't know why Kobe was invited either, since it would clearly rub salt on the wound. Jimmy should have insisted that Kobe stand down. Overall, the whole thing was IMO completely mishandled.


And the unrestrained hate for Dwight lingers on. Maybe it's a personal thing, but I really don't see to much Dwight did wrong that makes me glad he's gone. He annoyed the hell out of me last season but I'll also allocate the blame equally: horrible coach, too little depth, injuries, and Kobe's dominant persona.

In no way, shape, or form did we dodge a bullet. We traded our best trading piece (Bynum) for him then lost him for nothing.

Maybe Dwight is not the main guy on a dynasty team but he's easily a great #2 and an unparalleled #3.If he stayed and we stayed healthy, I think we'd have a shot to win. (Given we did what we did this off-season along with resigning Dwight). If LeBron and Melo decided to stay next summer then we would have rode them out one more year and built a new superteam of Howard/Love/Rondo. That's certainly a dynasty level team and we could have still won a ring before then.

Instead, we're going to strike out this coming summer *unless you consider Melo our savior and we''re goign to be good enough not to get a top 3 pick in a superstar heavy draft.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby D.B. Cooper on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:25 am

I don't blame him as much as others but I didn't like the hiring of Rudy T, Mike Brown or Pringles. I didn't like him firing Ronnie Lester and the one player move I didn't like was trading our picks for Nash.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:37 am

TIME wrote:Yeah, I'll agree that on roster decisions he has been mostly solid.

His five glaring errors = Mike Brown / Pringles / not hiring Adelman / not hiring Phil / not hiring Shaw.

This is pretty much it.

He's made some bonehead stuff outside of basketball that kind of show that he's not anywhere near his father in terms of personality...

but for basketball he's only really messed up on coaching decisions. And I put some of that on a learning curve. His father wasn't great at coaching hires either.

Anyway, I think all this gets fixed next summer when Phil gets his official position with the team in some way.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:12 am

TIME wrote:Yeah, I'll agree that on roster decisions he has been mostly solid.

His five glaring errors = Mike Brown / Pringles / not hiring Adelman / not hiring Phil / not hiring Shaw.


^^ This has been my contention as well. Throw Rudy T in that mix as well, although it was less of a bungle because of his pedigree, and on paper seemed ok.

But it wasn't just the decisions - it was the way he handled the hires that was also so terrible.

I didn't love the way this whole Dwight debacle went down however. Choosing D' Antoni over Phil almost singlehandedly ensured that we were not going to be keeping our free agent.

I know it's de rigueur to rip on Dwight right now, but I'm back to thinking about what could have been. If he comes back to anywhere near his old self defensively this year I am going to be very bummed that he walked.

Bottom line for Jim is track record, just like it was for his old man who was the best in the biz. Right now under Jim Buss we are a bit of a laughing stock in terms of coaching hires, and the way we treated Phil last year. We were a second round out and a first round out in the playoffs. We lost our premiere free agent with D12 walking out on the franchise, something that has never happened to the Lakers. We struck out trying to land Chris Paul, and while it was the NBA that did it, he had to know that the timing was going to be suspect because the entire league ownership had come up with a new CBA just to keep us from doing that exact thing.

So right now you may not say he was wrong per se, but he's not exactly tearing it up. Until he gets us a Chip or at least comes close, it's going to be hard to look at him as a winner like his father. He also lacks the charisma and brilliance of his father, and that hurts him in the public eye, too.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby revgen on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:13 am

1) Hiring Mike Brown instead of Adelman.

2) Hiring D'Antoni.

3) Trading Bynum for a player who wanted to play in NJ. Didn't even want to play with Nash, Pau, and Kobe until his hand was forced. We could have traded Bynum for picks, prospects, or pieces to build around for the future. We basically got nothing for Bynum when we could have gotten something. Sure, I understand you sometimes have to gamble, but you need to know what cards you're playing. Jimbo pales compared to his father, West, and Mitch when it comes to knowing his cards. He's a horse trainer, not a gambler.

Buss isn't the worst owner. He's at least willing to spend money. But he needs to let basketball folks handle the business end.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:50 am

The CP3 deal has sent the FO in scramble mode that they haven't seemed to recover from....

1.) Mike Brown.......Adelman should have been the guy.

2.) The refusal to trade Pau after the CP3 deal for Dragic / Martin / Scola. We all saw what it took to get Harden from OKC. We had a chance to turn 1 trade asset into 3 solid players, 3 valuable trade assets or somewhere in between.

3.) The endless pursuit of D12, when all signs pointed to him not wanting to be here. If we deal with Philly directly do we end up with Iggy/Vucevic? If we bothered to pick up the phone with GSW to work a sign and trade are we sitting on Barnes or Thompson or both?

4.) Selling out our future 1st round picks for a 40 year old injury prone PG, Ramon Sessions, D12, dumping Sasha, dumping Fisher.

5.) Mike D'Antoni....over any coach that fit the roster.

6.) The 2014 plan...can the FO turn it around?

It's not just Jim, it's the whole FO, that have made decisions, when looking back on, were wrong and easily avoidable.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby lakersin4 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:51 am

I don't think the Bynum for D12 deal would have went down the way it did with Dr. Buss still at the helm.. He would have got him sign & traded on a multi year deal or not at all. When he went after a franchise player he locked them in..
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby The Rock on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:22 am

Lack of youth and poor drafting is my biggest gripe

We hired Mike Brown because Jerry West was damn close to hiring him in Golden State...if Jerry West wants him isn't it a good idea to pursue that guy as well? We basically outbid for Mike. At that time it did seem like a solid hire

When D'Antoni was hired instead of Phil, the team was struggling like crazy trying to learn a structured offense like the Princeton, I have no idea how we would've handled the triangle...not to mention Phil was a little apprehensive with rumors coming out that he may not go to road games and what not.

I dont blame him for injuries and the CP3 veto which is by far the two biggest things that has victimized our franchise over the last 2-3 years.

Lets be honest we thought our championship window was closed in 2011 after getting swept by DAL & Phil left, we knew damn well but would'nt acknowlege outright we weren't going to compete for a title for the rest of Kobe's contract due to large contracts of the team with aging players, no flexibility, no youth. Jim tried to extend the window one more year...I mean come on we got Steve freakin Nash and Dwight Howard, 2 all stars, who cares what holes they have these two bring tools to the table that we could use in winning a championship. We've won before with a poor defensive PG and a C who cant hit free throws, we can work around those flaws we've done it before. Its really a shame that mounting injuries robbed us of letting us see what this team actually could've been last year.

Quietly Mitch has re-signed with the Lakers...yes his contract was up before the draft but he's still here, nobody has paid attention to it but yea thats by far the best thing Jim could do right now, bring back Mitch. Start from there and lets see how they utilize the 2014 free agency and draft. We have a good shot of banking on both of those things
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Vasashi17 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:11 pm

I'm sure not many here will openly admit that they wanted CP3 and Dwight as plan A, but if you can haul in those type of commodities to pair with Kobe, I'm sure most of you will be comfortable in doing that and then entertaining replacing/exchanging those commodities at a later time.

If Jimmy green lit those type of moves, then good for him, but does the man need a pat on the back to really make moves that most of us try to do in 2K? If Dwight and CP3 weren't the right fit, then you trade them for pieces that are, but nearly everybody here would have tried to trade Drew/LO/Pau for Dwight and CP3. Both were clearly available and you had the entire league trying to strike a deal in bringing those franchise type players to their roster.

However, when the contingency is to trade away a large TPE and 4 picks to bring in an aging point guard, I'm not sure many would be completely comfortable with it. Those of us who were, eventually became uneasy when we found out that said PG would be locked into a contract at the ripe age of 41....and remaining on the roster past the Bean....wtf?

Then there is the act of kissing max gluteus with billboards and promised TV deals, when all that needed to be done was le-going the ego. You wanted to lock up a future past Kobe, yet you hire the guy that not only drives that future away, but makes an aging Kobe obsolete....wtf?

Now you send your Laker for Life off into premature obscurity, while you have your previous Laker for Life question you in a very public way. I wonder if the 2 were dodging their true feelings about Jimmy or just letting it rip when they recently met up.

Anyways, now you don't have a set future/commodity to rely on and you have successfully divided a loyal contingent.

Jimmy....how ever did you mess this up so bad?
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby live and die in LA on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:16 pm

He really gets a bad rap. He may not be the best but he is far from the worst. It isn't his fault that Stern vetoed the CP3 trade, and it isn't his fault that Dwight didn't want to be with the Lakers.

The bottom line is Mitch gets credit for the good moves while Jim gets fault for the bad ones.

Everyone will bring up Phil but I believe Jim ultimately wanted more of a long term coach, rather than one that will a year to year deal.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:49 pm

I think a lot of the Jim Buss hate gives a lot of cover to Mitch. Anything wrong is Buss.... Anything right is Mitch.

Reality is a little different.... Even MDA. We all know Dr. Buss wanted Showtime 2.0 and his kid got the coach with the closest philosophy in here. The old man wasn't much of a fan of the Tri......,thought it was boring. If your dad was dying in front of your eyes and wanted to see Showtime return..... What would you do?

The one I will disagree on is CP3..... Stern saved whomever made that move. Just like Dwight..... He's fools gold.
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby Elle on Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:11 pm

He was born......
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Re: What exactly did Jim Buss do wrong?

Postby John3:16 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:12 pm

TIME wrote:Yeah, I'll agree that on roster decisions he has been mostly solid.

His five glaring errors = Mike Brown / Pringles / not hiring Adelman / not hiring Phil / not hiring Shaw.


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