Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby jlkr on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:24 pm

Having Nash and Meeks spread the floor has really opened things up for Kobe and D12. Look how easily D12 scored off Kobe assists against the Bulls. That doesn't happen without Nash and Meeks on the arc forcing their defenders to stay near them. Thibs could not pack the paint as much as he usually likes to, Kobe kept making the Bulls pay.

MWP was great defensively against Boozer, but really need him to get out of that shooting slump.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:41 pm

gcclaker wrote:
John3:16 wrote:
Juronimo wrote:I agree with everything Finwe just posted.

I agree with everything Juronimo just posted.

I am with John about what Juronimo said about Finwe's post. Balance and picking the right spots...

I agree with Finwe 100%, Juronimo 81%, John 47% and GCC I just have to disagree with everythning you said regarding aggreement. :man1:
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby John3:16 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:I agree with Finwe 100%, Juronimo 81%, John 47% and GCC I just have to disagree with everythning you said regarding aggreement. :man1:


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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:45 pm

^Yea but only because your team is leading the division and you have a higher winning percentage than GCC who, even though is posting at an MVP level, does not have the right amount of post completions, quoted material and hasn't really made any posters better while posting against inferior posters. Step it GCC :man12:
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Weezy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:54 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Weezy wrote:I agree with what you said as well Finwe, Kobe should not be running every play, every time down. It works now, but it won't always, and if Nash and Kobe split the job it makes it harder on the defense and it's less work or Kobe.

I think you guys are right, but you're underestimating how much we actually do that. We mix it up JUST enough to keep the defense honest and I think it's fine right now.

Examples: every now and then Nash will run a pick and roll with Howard late. If nothing is there, they kick it to Kobe with about 10 seconds left.

The game against the Raptors we ran Kobe as a decoy and allowed Nash to hit that three.

When the doubles come, Kobe passes to Nash and then the responsibility is on Nash to get in the paint and make the right play (he's still figuring out how to do this consistently).


I agree that what we're doing now is working, a lot of the time he makes the right play. I just think that bringing the ball down and giving it straight off to Kobe every single play down the stretch can't succeed forever. There's nobody on the team I'd rather have the ball in his hands down the stretch than Kobe, but I would not mind mixing it up and letting Nash run plays too. Kobe is doing well, but at the same time in that Toronto game he had 9 turnovers, 9. He's great, but he's not a real PG, he leaves his feet to pass too much still. I'm happy with how things are now because we're winning, but I still kinda think Kobe is having to do too much and he could wear out simply trying to make the playoffs, a little more balance with him and Nash could go a long way in helping.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby therealdeal on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:11 pm

I agree with that. I think the problem we're seeing is that what's happening now is working right now. Ever since we lost those games against Memphis and Utah the Lakers have been operating under the motto: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And you and I can see that soon what's not breaking could break easily, but to them it's a formula that's been working.

I think we should definitely mix in a few more plays like that inbounds play against Toronto where Steve gets the ball off of a misdirection and then makes a quick decision to either shoot or pass or get into the lane. Something quick so that the team can't react easily.

I'm on board with that. Especially out of timeouts or off of defensive rebounds.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Lets just say the gimmick has reached its expiration date.

This team will win in spite of D'Antoni, cause we do have alot of talent on this team. Sadly, I have no faith in a legitimate title run as long as this guy is in charge of our moving parts.

Recently, Dwight has said that SVG has reached out....if not Stan, then why not Jeff. If Phil is truly out of the picture, you bring in a guy that has managed numerous personalities, is a great defensive coach and has been successful coaching in large market cities.

One thing that we can all agree about is that its not only about offense. Yet it seems to be the only thing that this team focuses on. Even our defense is offensive. :man1:
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby DuddlyDoRight on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:31 pm

i realize we arnt running an offense nash is accustomed to, but he should still be able to be the passer we know him to be. Hes had a lot of trouble getting howard the ball, and I thought they would be hooking up for at least 2 ally oops a game.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Maluco Beleza on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:44 pm

because he's ball dominant....
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby gcclaker on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:47 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^Yea but only because your team is leading the division and you have a higher winning percentage than GCC who, even though is posting at an MVP level, does not have the right amount of post completions, quoted material and hasn't really made any posters better while posting against inferior posters. Step it GCC :man12:

Add to it that my WHINING % never really reached elite level status. I have to facilitate for the alphas and non-alphas here too. :man1:
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:55 pm

Maluco Beleza wrote:because he's ball dominant....

Really, so the reason he's the pg of this team is basically because in his 17th season they realized he was ball-dominant so the best way to utilize him is to make him the PG?

Interesting, what a waste of 16 seasons. At least he has 5 rings to show for being misused.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby gcclaker on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:59 pm

Nash can't run the same system as with the Suns nor is he asked too. It is not as spaced out with shooters all over the floor. Howard does not have the face-up J that Stoudemire did. What I like is that they are now using 24 with high pick and rolls then adjust accordingly depending on who they are screening against. Yesterday, they were having trouble with Noah who was mobile enough to hedge and recover so they used World Peace's man Boozer who is slower. I agree that we can't use it predominantly but it is a much better option than dump it into 24 on the low block or the wing let him create by himself.

Nash as brilliant as he is just cannot separate himself from the faster point guards that cover him. He did take the diminutive Robinson to school yesterday in the third to help build a cushion for the win. In a way, it helps Nash by not subjecting him to more wear and tear plus using his fine shooting to pry defenses away from Bryant and Howard. He has done a good job in picking when to shoot and still can set up teammates for scores. I find myself surprised whenever he misses.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:03 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Lets just say the gimmick has reached its expiration date.

This team will win in spite of D'Antoni, cause we do have alot of talent on this team. Sadly, I have no faith in a legitimate title run as long as this guy is in charge of our moving parts.

Recently, Dwight has said that SVG has reached out....if not Stan, then why not Jeff. If Phil is truly out of the picture, you bring in a guy that has managed numerous personalities, is a great defensive coach and has been successful coaching in large market cities.

One thing that we can all agree about is that its not only about offense. Yet it seems to be the only thing that this team focuses on. Even our defense is offensive. :man1:


What was the point of this post? You addressed nothing about the topic at hand and used it as yet another opportunity to denigrate D'Antoni for no reason. We get it, you don't like him and will blame him for everything and anything. Time for a new gimmick?
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby BadCoaching on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:21 pm

Because he's incapable of playing off the ball. When he does try to play off the ball he runs to the person with the ball for hand off pass or stands 10 feet from them with a defender on his back demanding the ball.

May as well just give it to him early on and let him operate so he doesn't have to fight to get to the ball...
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:32 pm

gcclaker wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:^Yea but only because your team is leading the division and you have a higher winning percentage than GCC who, even though is posting at an MVP level, does not have the right amount of post completions, quoted material and hasn't really made any posters better while posting against inferior posters. Step it GCC :man12:

Add to it that my WHINING % never really reached elite level status. I have to facilitate for the alphas and non-alphas here too. :man1:


It is true John's "Whine" game is on another level. I mean with his man body, speed and unstoppability he may be the best every of all time in history at the Whine game. I mean truly he is a man among boys. Not 1, not 2, not 3 but 58 post in a row where he showed whine-domination of the competition. Too John 3:16 I give you :bow: :man4: :man12: :man10:
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Lets just say the gimmick has reached its expiration date.

This team will win in spite of D'Antoni, cause we do have alot of talent on this team. Sadly, I have no faith in a legitimate title run as long as this guy is in charge of our moving parts.

Recently, Dwight has said that SVG has reached out....if not Stan, then why not Jeff. If Phil is truly out of the picture, you bring in a guy that has managed numerous personalities, is a great defensive coach and has been successful coaching in large market cities.

One thing that we can all agree about is that its not only about offense. Yet it seems to be the only thing that this team focuses on. Even our defense is offensive. :man1:


What was the point of this post? You addressed nothing about the topic at hand and used it as yet another opportunity to denigrate D'Antoni for no reason. We get it, you don't like him and will blame him for everything and anything. Time for a new gimmick?


Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

I think it has alot to do with D'Antoni, so I expressed my answer as such. More importantly though is that we seem to always focus towards our offense, when its questions on our defense that should really be posed.

You get my post now? If not, maybe the problem lies in your comprehension in the question being asked by the OP.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Finwë on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:20 pm

BadCoaching wrote:Because he's incapable of playing off the ball. When he does try to play off the ball he runs to the person with the ball for hand off pass or stands 10 feet from them with a defender on his back demanding the ball.

May as well just give it to him early on and let him operate so he doesn't have to fight to get to the ball...

Disagree.
Playing "off the ball" doesn't mean being Ray Allen. It's more like Kobe on the triangle, going to the post and then playing from there, coming off curls to catch it on the elbows, playing a 2-man game (give-and-go) with one of the bigs or Nash, etc..
He's currently bringing the ball up court by himself.. Playing high pick and roll and dribble penetrating from 30 feet out. That's not his game IMO (though he can be quite good at it for stretches, like the NO game).

No one was advocating he played that way on EVERY possession, that he completely went away from being one of the initiators of the offense. I was just suggesting mixing it up, like, for example, the way he played under Phil, when sometimes Odom or Fisher would be the initiators of the O, we'd ran a set wit hsome movement and some screens and the ball would find Kobe with more rythm to make a play (either score or draw the D and kick it to the open guy) instead of him having to beat athletic wing guys from far out and tiring himself playing James Harden style..
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby odom1year on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:35 pm

It's a trick question. Kobe is always the true Lakers PG. :man1: Only Fisher did a great job playing along with him.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:09 am

It was the right move ... Nash is the best and most complete shooter in the league .... Nash PNR offense wasn't working for several reasons ....

I still don't like how Nash is a spectator in the 4th quarter though
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Murdock on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:37 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:It also took Kobe out of his comfort zone and since he's the only guy on our team still playing at an elite level it was hurting us. He complained about it after the Heat game in LA where he was just standing around the perimeter waiting to get the ball meanwhile Nash was getting absolutely destroyed by the Heat's traps.

It was the right move to switch it up.


since then only Kobe's style has changed ... he stopped passing of the back to the backet play on the right wing and started moving and it helped geatly ... we became predictable like that ... but now he has decided to spent more energy and come off the pick and roll

anyways Kobe faciliating is better since we need Nash as a shooter and with Kobe's shooting slump he had we had to do something ... and also Kobe playing off ball isn't his strong suit

so far it is working but we will get destroyed if we don't fix up our D ... none of this will matter in the end
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:48 am

Well, and this discussion is a good one, because it is the primary reason you hear from some contingents, a wish for Kobe to pass the ball more. (Last few games, he's been doing just that). No one complains when Kobe gets his from a Nash (or other player) initiated set. The complaints come (from my end anyway) when Kobe gets his from a Kobe initiated set TOO much. Those are typically the games where he is netting around 30 FGA and 2-3 assists.

If Kobe is going to handle the ball as much as he has the past few games, it is imperative it gets shared. He's been doing that and even though guys weren't hitting shots for the whole game, they eventually did and we won. When we go away from that, they have almost no chance of heating up and being able to contribute.

My issue is that without a dominant big (like Shaq) that you can run your offense through, somebody has to dish. That somebody should be the person who is touching the ball the most at the onset of an offensive set. If it's Nash, then it's Nash and I think that's how it was supposed to be originally. So if it's going to be Kobe instead touching the ball the most, then he has to facilitate/create too (whether guys are hitting them at the time or not) for this team to succeed.

Some argue that this isn't fair to Kobe because he isn't a PG to which I'd say he shouldn't handle the ball so much then. If you want to pull the "he's an SG, he shoots" card, I think that is completely fair (and for the most part true), but it is also fair and true that guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does. So, as a matter of fairness, you should want that taken away from him as well then because he's an SG, he shoots.

I should also add that for me, there is a difference between passing and facilitating and it isn't necessarily about passing for me, it's about creating an offensive opportunity for a teammate, as opposed to giving up the ball.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:27 am

JGC wrote:Those are typically the games where he is netting around 30 FGA and 2-3 assists.

You know Kobe has done that only once this season right? It was the time of the season when Nash and Gasol were out btw. We lost by 2 to the Rockets in Houston.

JGC wrote:but it is also fair and true that guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does. So, as a matter of fairness, you should want that taken away from him as well then because he's an SG, he shoots.

Google "Russel Westbrook" or "Derrick Rose" or "Kyrie Irving" or "Stephen Curry"
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:48 am

Chillbongo wrote:
JGC wrote:Those are typically the games where he is netting around 30 FGA and 2-3 assists.

You know Kobe has done that only once this season right? It was the time of the season when Nash and Gasol were out btw. We lost by 2 to the Rockets in Houston.


He's only netted "around 30 FGA" once? You're lying. Or you misread. Or, your definition of "around 30" is "is 30". He's been around 30 FGA multiple times, probably close to 10 and that's without looking at FT attempts, or anything like that. I'm considering anything 25 and up as being "around 30".

JGC wrote:but it is also fair and true that guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does. So, as a matter of fairness, you should want that taken away from him as well then because he's an SG, he shoots.

Google "Russel Westbrook" or "Derrick Rose" or "Kyrie Irving" or "Stephen Curry"[/quote]

Thanks for the tip! I did just what you said and apparently, according to the interwebs, they are all point guards.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:56 am

You said "those are typically the games where he is netting around 30 FGA and 2-3 assists"....he did that once this season, where he had 31 FGA and 3 assists. It was when we were without Steve Nash and Pau Gasol.

If we're using "around", then here are a couple more: 1/1 vs PHI, 12/11 @ CLE, and 11/29 vs IND. 4/64 games.

JGC wrote:I did just what you said and apparently, according to the interwebs, they are all point guards.

Neither is LeBron, what's your point? I'm just trying to show you that players who are majority ball handlers for their team can also be majority scorers. The fact that they are point guards only reinforces that it's irrelevant that Kobe handles and scores as much as he does, especially because he's a labeled shooting guard.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby therealdeal on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:00 am

Chillbongo wrote:

JGC wrote:but it is also fair and true that guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does. So, as a matter of fairness, you should want that taken away from him as well then because he's an SG, he shoots.

Google "Russel Westbrook" or "Derrick Rose" or "Kyrie Irving" or "Stephen Curry"

Also Brandon Jennings.
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