Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:09 am

Chillbongo wrote:You said "those are typically the games where he is netting around 30 FGA and 2-3 assists"....he did that once this season, where he had 31 FGA and 3 assists. It was when we were without Steve Nash and Pau Gasol.

If we're using "around", then here are a couple more: 1/1 vs PHI, 12/11 @ CLE, and 11/29 vs IND. 4/64 games.

JGC wrote:I did just what you said and apparently, according to the interwebs, they are all point guards.

Neither is LeBron, what's your point? I'm just trying to show you that players who are majority ball handlers for their team can also be majority scorers. The fact that they are point guards only reinforces that it's irrelevant that Kobe handles and scores as much as he does, especially because he's a labeled shooting guard.


First, I don't care who we were without. That doesn't give someone a full license to chuck.

Second, what is your definition of around? A difference of 1? Kobe has at least 10 games around 30 FGA which I am considering anywhere in the range of 26-34 shots or more. I mean, I know what you're trying to do. You want to make "around" really small here, and then make "around" be really big when we talk about stat comparisons to other players. Stop it. Be reasonable. To say that 27 or 33 isn't around 30 is just silly.

You are just not getting it are you? All of the examples you've provided (including Brandon Jennings) are point guards and Lebron James. So all I'm saying is that if Kobe is going to handle the ball as much as a point guard or Lebron James, then he should play like a point guard or Lebron James in terms of creating looks for others.

What I don't buy is the "but it's not fair to ask Kobe to create for others, he's not a PG he's an SG and his job is to shoot" which I have seen in here. But the only players that touch the ball as often are either Lebron (creates for others) or point guards (creates for others). The one player that touches the ball this much and doesn't create for others is Melo who is a black hole and not someone we want Kobe to be compared to.

Do you even realize what you're saying?
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:44 am

Most point guards in NBA this day and age don't handle the ball like past "true" point guards used to other than CP3, because we're in the era of the athletic PG. They shoot more and do everything else than just handle the ball. Kobe shouldn't be handling the ball as much as he is.

Kobe is not a PG never was, never will be and I do have to be honest and say I get annoyed with people's obsession with him and his assist total even on a championship team in the repeat era, I was like "dude"? That's where the ball hog mess came from it was stupid. And someone mentioned LeBron, if anyone watched LeBron when he first came into the league he played more like a PG, more so than how he's playing now and people acting wanting him to do the opposite. I find it ironic that Kobe as a SG is told to play like something he's opposed to other players in their right position,it's silly.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:49 am

JGC, regardless of the arguments for WHAT Kobe is/has been doing right/wrong, WHY do you think he's the facilitator in lieu of Nash? Not calling you out. I was just disappointed when i saw your name as the lady post and didn't see a response to the thread title. If i missed it i apologize.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:51 am

Punk-101 wrote:JGC, regardless of the arguments for WHAT Kobe is/has been doing right/wrong, WHY do you think he's the facilitator in lieu of Nash? Not calling you out. I was just disappointed when i saw your name as the last post and didn't see a response to the thread title. If i missed it i apologize.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:10 pm

Wow. You are all about assumptions. You should check the game logs before writing a pointless diatribe of emotion.

Because you would rather attack than conduct research yourself, I'll lay the facts out for you. The number of games in which Kobe shot 26+ shots and had 2-3 assists is STILL 4.

You just can't believe it can you? You know what's silly? Completely unfounded assertions. That's what children do.

Children also have poor short term memory. So let me remind you,
JGC wrote:guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does


First of all Carmelo isn't a guard. And the guards listed who ball handle shoot pretty much the same amount as Kobe on any given night, give or take a shot or two.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Weezy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:28 pm

If we really just look at this simply, Kobe had had this responsibility his entire career. During the Shaq championship years Kobe always had the ball in his hands in the 4th at the very least, he initiated the offense, he made a lot of the plays. Why? Because he's a threat all around, to shoot, drive, pass, draw double teams, all of it. That's how he's most comfortable and most effective, so that seems to me why he's playing that way now.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:56 pm

Jazzygirl205 wrote:Most point guards in NBA this day and age don't handle the ball like past "true" point guards used to other than CP3, because we're in the era of the athletic PG. They shoot more and do everything else than just handle the ball. Kobe shouldn't be handling the ball as much as he is.

Kobe is not a PG never was, never will be and I do have to be honest and say I get annoyed with people's obsession with him and his assist total even on a championship team in the repeat era, I was like "dude"? That's where the ball hog mess came from it was stupid. And someone mentioned LeBron, if anyone watched LeBron when he first came into the league he played more like a PG, more so than how he's playing now and people acting wanting him to do the opposite. I find it ironic that Kobe as a SG is told to play like something he's opposed to other players in their right position,it's silly.


If Kobe played like other players in the SG position, he would touch the ball SUBSTANTIALLY less. Is that what you want? I'm sensing that you want him to be like all the other SGs when it is convenient, but not when it isn't.

Regardless of position, my point earlier was that whoever touches the ball the most on a team, should generally be your primary playmaker if you have aspirations of being a good team. I'm not sure if you're arguing that he who touches the ball most, SHOULDN'T be your primary playmaker (regardless of team).

And the better that player is at making plays for others, the better your team will be offensively, generally speaking.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:04 pm

Punk-101 wrote:JGC, regardless of the arguments for WHAT Kobe is/has been doing right/wrong, WHY do you think he's the facilitator in lieu of Nash? Not calling you out. I was just disappointed when i saw your name as the lady post and didn't see a response to the thread title. If i missed it i apologize.


IMO, I think Kobe has been the facilitator on this team because

1) He's a ball-dominant player who needs the ball to be effective. Most ball-dominant players are uncomfortable and less effective when playing off the ball. People have wondered whether he can easily mesh with another ball-dominant guard for years now and that is clearly well merited. Kobe hasn't played off ball much of his career at all, he could get there, but it would take a TON of time to pick up those nuances and time he doesn't have.

2) We don't have the pieces to employ a run-and-gun style MDA offense. Don't have the shooters, don't have the athleticism.

BTW, what the heck is a lady post?

I thought it was worth bringing up, because Kobe HAS to play Nash's role to a degree. And I brought up the whole ask (from some of us) for him to facilitate more because he clearly is going to have to handle the ball a lot more than we all originally thought when we signed Nash. And if he's going to handle it more, and assume SOME of Nash's role, then he has to do just that.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:16 pm

Chillbongo wrote:Wow. You are all about assumptions. You should check the game logs before writing a pointless diatribe of emotion.

Because you would rather attack than conduct research yourself, I'll lay the facts out for you. The number of games in which Kobe shot 26+ shots and had 2-3 assists is STILL 4.

You just can't believe it can you? You know what's silly? Completely unfounded assertions. That's what children do.

Children also have poor short term memory. So let me remind you,
JGC wrote:guards whose primary role is to shoot also don't handle the ball nearly as much as Kobe does


First of all Carmelo isn't a guard. And the guards listed who ball handle shoot pretty much the same amount as Kobe on any given night, give or take a shot or two.


I may be a child but you're a fetus. So there! =P

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be so literal. I mean it's not like I feel better about a 40 FGA game with 4 assists either. I hope that's not what you thought. So going through the game logs is fine, but a bit silly. If you want exact statistical frameworks, I guess I could try to provide you scenarios. I just brought up those numbers as an example of situations that I don't like to see (high FGA, low assist).

I honestly don't understand the problem here. If Kobe is going to handle the ball a ton, then creating for others should be a responsibility also, and this is the case with other teams who have players that handle the ball a ton. If he's NOT going to, then we should let Nash do that part. I just don't think it makes much sense to have the player handling the ball the most, not creating for others because we have a team of players who can't create for themselves and somebody has to do it in order for this team to be successful.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby therealdeal on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:23 pm

Oh man... So much goodness going on in this forum today.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Ok so now that your original beliefs of Kobe's statistics has been debunked -- what now isn't an acceptable stat line for Kobe to be primary ball handler?

No, I don't know what makes you "feel better", and I don't care. But given your constant wishy-washiness, if Kobe isn't dropping 25/10/10 you don't seem satisfied. There was a stretch of games this season when we were injury ridden, and I thought Kobe was taking a few too many shots for my liking. But now this is getting out of hand.

Kobe is creating for others while being primary ball handler. That is his responsibility now and Nash is playing off ball. He has been doing this since the team meeting in Memphis, mind you.

He's averaging 8 APG since the team meeting in Memphis at the end of January, while being the primary scorer. He's the s***. Let it go.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Juronimo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:53 pm

I too had my issues with Kobe's play in November and December, but for the last month and a half or so, he's been playing out of his mind. I'm happy with his play personally.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Doc Brown on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:10 pm

Easy...Kobe is selfish and wants the assists along with the points.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby TIME on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:19 pm

:kobe1:
Doc Brown wrote:Easy...Kobe is selfish and wants the assists along with the points.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:37 pm

JGC wrote:
BTW, what the heck is a lady post?


Well, your posting style is so feminine and sissy.

Haha. Nah, f*****g cell phone autocorrect. "Last post" not "lady post". I tried to edit and instead it ended up quoting myself and looking like a tard.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:19 pm

Chillbongo wrote:Ok so now that your original beliefs of Kobe's statistics has been debunked -- what now isn't an acceptable stat line for Kobe to be primary ball handler?


Original beliefs of Kobe's stats has been debunked? So, let me just get this clear. The impression you got, when I said that the typical game I didn't like were those 30 FGA and 2-3 assist type games, was that ANYTHING outside was acceptable? Is that really what you thought.

So, was my post so unclear to you, that you honestly believed I would have been ok with a 35 FGA 1 assist game?

I was trying to give a rough statistical example of the TYPE of games I didn't like.

Chillbongo wrote:No, I don't know what makes you "feel better", and I don't care. But given your constant wishy-washiness, if Kobe isn't dropping 25/10/10 you don't seem satisfied. There was a stretch of games this season when we were injury ridden, and I thought Kobe was taking a few too many shots for my liking. But now this is getting out of hand.


Don't agree about the 25/10/10. Agree about stretch of games where he took too many shots.

Chillbongo wrote:Kobe is creating for others while being primary ball handler. That is his responsibility now and Nash is playing off ball. He has been doing this since the team meeting in Memphis, mind you.

He's averaging 8 APG since the team meeting in Memphis at the end of January, while being the primary scorer. He's the s***. Let it go.


I think my post may have flown right over ya. I wasn't saying Kobe wasn't doing that recently. In fact, I think I might have said he HAS been doing that recently. I LIKE the way Kobe is playing recently a lot more than the way he was playing the first part of the year.

If you go re-read my comment WITHOUT getting all defensive, you'll see I'm not complaining about his play of late. What I'm saying is that this is what he NEEDS to keep doing and this is what I wanted him to do from the beginning. When he has games LIKE 30 FGA and LIKE 2-3 assists I don't like it quite as much as how is he playing now. And it's no coincidence the team is doing better as a result either.

I mean, Kobe is playing the most balanced he's played all season as of late right? And the team is playing it's best basketball that they've played all season as of late right?

So you had alleged "Kobe haters" and "Kobe detractors" like myself saying I wish Kobe would shoot less and pass more, it's better for the team. The "Lakers franchise detractors" labeled anything that didn't praise Kobe (even if it is to the benefit of the team/franchise) as hate. My original post, in this thread, was just pointing out WHY I was asking for Kobe to shoot less and pass more. Because he HAS to take on or assume some of that Nash role for this team. He can't handle the ball as much as he was and not create for others, it won't work and it didn't. But now he is doing that and it is working.
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Re: Why is Kobe assuming Nash's role?

Postby JGC on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:22 pm

Punk-101 wrote:
JGC wrote:
BTW, what the heck is a lady post?


Well, your posting style is so feminine and sissy.

Haha. Nah, f*****g cell phone autocorrect. "Last post" not "lady post". I tried to edit and instead it ended up quoting myself and looking like a tard.


Hahahaha. I was like ... hmmm lady post. Lead post? I figured it was a typo, but couldn't figure out what it should have been. No worries, this site and mobile is like oil and water. Basically, impossible to use especially the window where you have to post and you're trying to respond to a post that is longer than the height of the window? OMG. Nightmare.
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