WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Mr_Hollywood_Line wrote:There just seems to be some kind of "culture of laziness" here no matter the roster or the coach.

What a disgrace. :disagree:

This. We've seen it time and time again, even with championship squads. Many would say "they'll flip the switch come playoff time" and it came true a couple of times, but we failed to do so in 2011 (remember Phil going at a reporter " .is it the playoffs yet? -well, no, but -is it the playoffs yet?" only to see our team not be able to click come playoff time?) and in 2012.
Teams keep getting better, our players older, and the record is worse.
We have MANY problems, but I've always absolutely HATED the fact that 'level of effort' is a HUGE question mark variable for this team.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:31 pm

Ariza3 wrote:our record represents our team. one game were on the next were not. back and forth back and forth.

facilitator Kobe from the start or forcing shots 1v5 Kobe from the start. defense and offense click one game the very next neither do.

it's so annoying. want Nash back ASAP and even Blake but duhon is doing well. Meeks needs waaaay more minutes. especially if Kobe is gonna play like this. super efficient for the first x amount of games and then this the last few

You said that already about this game, and trodgers objectively proved that you were wrong. Why do you keep repeating that?
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby The Rock on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:36 pm

Just got back from the game WTF happened?????

We were up 7 with 7 mins to go in the game I thought we'd just close it out. Then it was tied at 88 with 4 minutes left and they ended up with 113 points. How the eff did these guys botch this so bad? We gave up 40 points in that 4th quarter, they were making everything. At no point in time during this game until that last 4-5 minutes did me or the crowd ever feel antsy that the game was gonna be away from us. Thats an impressive shooting display that Orlando put up, we need to get better on Defense, that was just an inexcuseable performance in the last half of the 4th
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Ariza3 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:40 pm

I'm not lookin at stupid stats. I'm watching the game. players' energy. their playing type. what they're doing out there. etc. what I saw was Kobe start the game facilitating then almost immediately forcing shots, driving through the trees, guys just running up and down the floor without touching the ball once. for example the only time metta got points was when he brought the ball up himself and pulled up for 3 or got himself to the line.

guys are def thinking that there not getting the ball enough. example Dwight taking that midrange. there was no ball movement tonight and whatever the stats say you can't deny that. Kobe controlled this game in a bad way...choosing to force shots and drive by himself rather than running the offense like he should while Nash is out and then close it. obv getting rest with Meeks playing which didn't happen tonight
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby dak22 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:41 pm

lakerfansd wrote:It all about effort. They simply don't play hard.


But I thought adding a two time defensive player of the year, even at 80%, would prevent such scenarios? Especially when he was known for "not taking a game off"? I mean it's all odom, fisher's and bynum's fault correct? Oh there not here anymore.

The dirty little secret that no one wants to admit is that this team has an identity: it's the "kobe eats first, everyone else eats later" identity. It's always been this way since shaq left and with good reason: kobe was in his prime and arguably the best. Even got us two championships despite the ups and downs.

However, kobe today is neither in his prime nor the best player in the league. As long as this hierarchy exists, the lakers will have trouble in the playoffs regardless of who's coaching and be just as lazy no matter who we trade.

I've said it in the past just like I've said about getting rid of Gasol/Artest earlier: Kobe ball has got to go if the lakers want to be serious again. That doesn't mean ignore kobe or make him play passive mode for 48 min; it just means that the focus shouldn't be on him everynight.

Don't believe me? Just look at our current record. There's no reason why the lakers should be under .500, playing with inconsistency and poor defense despite adding a top 5 player, even at 70-80%. And the worst part is that our schedule is just going to get difficult from now on.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:47 pm

David Aldridge ‏@daldridgetnt
Worthy killing the Lakers on the postgame. "This team is not as good as they think they are...not even really being professional athletes"..

Wow. I think he's referring to the lack of effort these guys go out with every other night. I agree.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby JGC on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:54 pm

Finwë wrote:
Ariza3 wrote:our record represents our team. one game were on the next were not. back and forth back and forth.

facilitator Kobe from the start or forcing shots 1v5 Kobe from the start. defense and offense click one game the very next neither do.

it's so annoying. want Nash back ASAP and even Blake but duhon is doing well. Meeks needs waaaay more minutes. especially if Kobe is gonna play like this. super efficient for the first x amount of games and then this the last few

You said that already about this game, and trodgers objectively proved that you were wrong. Why do you keep repeating that?


I didn't think he objectively proved he was wrong. I mean Worthy said the same thing after the game. Too much Kobe by himself stuff. I saw it too, but it wasn't so bad that it caused us to lose.

Still, that isn't why we lost, just one of many reasons why.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Lakerjones on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:57 pm

Finwë wrote:
David Aldridge ‏@daldridgetnt
Worthy killing the Lakers on the postgame. "This team is not as good as they think they are...not even really being professional athletes"..

Wow. I think he's referring to the lack of effort these guys go out with every other night. I agree.


Sounds like hyperbole to me. We were up by some good sized leads in the first and second half. We let it slip it away. Not showing up is what we looked like against Sacto. The guys gave some effort, but they didn't get it done down the stretch.

Dwight not shooting anywhere near even his lousy career free throwing numbers is unprofessional, that is true. To me that's the biggest glaring issue for this team in close games. It was the same way against Indiana. You can't shoot that poorly from the stripe with double digit attempts and expect to win close games. How can you? Really?

Meeks hardly played, Pau didn't play for the last 5 minutes of the 4th, Hill didn't play at all. So that's not effort. They weren't out there.

Kobe was trying hard. Duhon tries hard. Jamison tries hard, he just sucks sometimes. But not for lack of effort.

And Morris is trying hard as well. He's just a third string, second year PG who the jury is still out on about whether he can even play in this league. He's made some improvements but he's not that great and he's being asked to be our starting PG.

So the only guy I can see blaming truly for lack of effort is D12. If Big Game wants to go there, ok. I don't think he should generalize about other guys, half of whom didn't even get to play down the stretch.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:17 am

JGC wrote:
Finwë wrote:
Ariza3 wrote:our record represents our team. one game were on the next were not. back and forth back and forth.

facilitator Kobe from the start or forcing shots 1v5 Kobe from the start. defense and offense click one game the very next neither do.

it's so annoying. want Nash back ASAP and even Blake but duhon is doing well. Meeks needs waaaay more minutes. especially if Kobe is gonna play like this. super efficient for the first x amount of games and then this the last few

You said that already about this game, and trodgers objectively proved that you were wrong. Why do you keep repeating that?


I didn't think he objectively proved he was wrong. I mean Worthy said the same thing after the game. Too much Kobe by himself stuff. I saw it too, but it wasn't so bad that it caused us to lose.

Still, that isn't why we lost, just one of many reasons why.


I'll dig up trodgers' post where he in fact DID objectively prove ariza wrong. Ariza said "from the start" right?. He was wrong:

trodgers wrote:
Ariza3 wrote:Kobe didn't get guys involved early. pretty much has to force shots up just to get a look. Then down the stretch you couldn't go to anyone and Kobe went 1v5 without passing once.

He didn't shoot until 5 or 7 minutes left in the first. He had three assists and seven passes in the first quarter.


"didn't get guys involved early" "forcing shots 1v5 Kobe from the start". Wrong.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Ariza3 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:22 am

seriously arguing over 3 words. getting guys "going" for the first 5 mins which didnt do much anyways THEN not for the whole rest of the game doesnt really cut it...ill call that "from the start" since it looked like he didnt even try for the rest of the game.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby lakersin4 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 am

Plenty to complain about after this loss.. Howard should have been benched. Where was Meeks? After his last game he deserved a bigger role tonight. Kobe went into hero mode too often but it was when we were struggling most of the time. The only way to fix this is taking the ball out of his hands, or our other guys hitting shots at a rate that keeps us in the lead. When we're playing from behind or losing leads Kobe will take over every time the team doesn't step up.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:33 am

^^ I agree to some extent, but I still thought we didn't come out the way we needed to.
Kobe tried hard on O, but didn't on D. Pau didn't try at all. Howard's FTs killed any momentum. MWP was good 1 on 1 but got lost after running through screens, didn't fight through them hard enough. Transition D was awful, and second efforts were non-existant.
Pau wasn't out there down the stretch because he was blatantly awful before when he did get a chance to do something.

I agree we have MANY problems, some fixable, some not so much, but for a LONG time this team's level of effort has been very inconsistent. The Lakers are notorious for not giving it their all every game. Dumb a** Barkley was saying circa 2011 that some nights we go out "Hollywood" style, just lazy and not vary engaged. He was right and it's been true ever since.
Teams with lesser talent win because they play hard every game. We have way more talent than Memphism but they play 10x harder than us. They hustle, they play D, they box out and rotate. We do sometimes, and sometimes we don't.

Maybe Nash's presence and his ability to get guys involved with help getting the team more engaged on both ends. We need energy and chemistry, which are as key in defense as systematic coaching decisions. Phil didn't run many defensive drills, but he motivated, he influenced guys to try hard and trust each other (during his championship stretch).
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:40 am

Ariza3 wrote:I'm not lookin at stupid stats. I'm watching the game. players' energy. their playing type. what they're doing out there. etc. what I saw was Kobe start the game facilitating then almost immediately forcing shots, driving through the trees, guys just running up and down the floor without touching the ball once. for example the only time metta got points was when he brought the ball up himself and pulled up for 3 or got himself to the line.

guys are def thinking that there not getting the ball enough. example Dwight taking that midrange. there was no ball movement tonight and whatever the stats say you can't deny that. Kobe controlled this game in a bad way...choosing to force shots and drive by himself rather than running the offense like he should while Nash is out and then close it. obv getting rest with Meeks playing which didn't happen tonight

Those weren't stupid stats, that was a recap of what happened in a portion of the game you claim to have watched but from what you stated it really feels like you didn't...
As for your subsequent analysis, I disagree with that as well. And it's not an ideological disagreement, it's actually a factual thing you have wrong, something that is objectively refutable, just as your original statement was.
That's what bothers me, when people blame X for something when X actually didn't even happen and it's incredibly easy to see it; all it takes is actually watching the game and using your head..

Not gonna keep talking about this, it was extremely minor, just making this point because of that tendency I just mentioned, it really bothers me.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Lakerjones on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:43 am

Finwë wrote:^^ I agree to some extent, but I still thought we didn't come out the way we needed to.
Kobe tried hard on O, but didn't on D. Pau didn't try at all. Howard's FTs killed any momentum. MWP was good 1 on 1 but got lost after running through screens, didn't fight through them hard enough. Transition D was awful, and second efforts were non-existant.
Pau wasn't out there down the stretch because he was blatantly awful before when he did get a chance to do something.

I agree we have MANY problems, some fixable, some not so much, but for a LONG time this team's level of effort has been very inconsistent. The Lakers are notorious for not giving it their all every game. Dumb a** Barkley was saying circa 2011 that some nights we go out "Hollywood" style, just lazy and not vary engaged. He was right and it's been true ever since.
Teams with lesser talent win because they play hard every game. We have way more talent than Memphism but they play 10x harder than us. They hustle, they play D, they box out and rotate. We do sometimes, and sometimes we don't.

Maybe Nash's presence and his ability to get guys involved with help getting the team more engaged on both ends. We need energy and chemistry, which are as key in defense as systematic coaching decisions. Phil didn't run many defensive drills, but he motivated, he influenced guys to try hard and trust each other (during his championship stretch).


I'll agree that the defensive intensity and focus was lacking in general. But it wasn't all about effort or unprofessionalism. You have to look at the coach, too. He doesn't coach with that in mind. His whole philosophy is based on outscoring the opponent. Look, if he wanted more effort then why didn't he play Jordan Hill who gives the most effort of the entire team? Why not play Meeks?
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:45 am

Ariza3 wrote:seriously arguing over 3 words. getting guys "going" for the first 5 mins which didnt do much anyways THEN not for the whole rest of the game doesnt really cut it...ill call that "from the start" since it looked like he didnt even try for the rest of the game.

It's not 3 words, it's the fact that you claim something happened when it's obvious to anyone with eyes it didn't. So why are you claiming that? The possible answer is what bothers me.

Regarding the rest of the game, I still disagree. I felt for the most part Kobe's shots came within the flow of the offense. Our problems tonight were mainly defense (an area where Kobe did suck, and if you want to criticize him that's what you should be talking about), FTs (howard), energy, agressiveness..

And no, even if true (not the case), that logic for calling it "from the start" doesn't work.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:51 am

Lakerjones wrote:
Finwë wrote:^^ I agree to some extent, but I still thought we didn't come out the way we needed to.
Kobe tried hard on O, but didn't on D. Pau didn't try at all. Howard's FTs killed any momentum. MWP was good 1 on 1 but got lost after running through screens, didn't fight through them hard enough. Transition D was awful, and second efforts were non-existant.
Pau wasn't out there down the stretch because he was blatantly awful before when he did get a chance to do something.

I agree we have MANY problems, some fixable, some not so much, but for a LONG time this team's level of effort has been very inconsistent. The Lakers are notorious for not giving it their all every game. Dumb a** Barkley was saying circa 2011 that some nights we go out "Hollywood" style, just lazy and not vary engaged. He was right and it's been true ever since.
Teams with lesser talent win because they play hard every game. We have way more talent than Memphism but they play 10x harder than us. They hustle, they play D, they box out and rotate. We do sometimes, and sometimes we don't.

Maybe Nash's presence and his ability to get guys involved with help getting the team more engaged on both ends. We need energy and chemistry, which are as key in defense as systematic coaching decisions. Phil didn't run many defensive drills, but he motivated, he influenced guys to try hard and trust each other (during his championship stretch).


I'll agree that the defensive intensity and focus was lacking in general. But it wasn't all about effort or unprofessionalism. You have to look at the coach, too. He doesn't coach with that in mind. His whole philosophy is based on outscoring the opponent. Look, if he wanted more effort then why didn't he play Jordan Hill who gives the most effort of the entire team? Why not play Meeks?

Oh I agree, I was just saying that effort is still a key variable, and it's still a big ?
Of course we have other issues, and of course D'Antoni needs to adjust things.

He said that it's hard to find minutes for HIll because Jamison is playing the 4. I don't think that necessarily needs to be the case. As a temporary solution, I'd play Pau less (though I would've put him in in the 4th when hack-a-dwight was killing us) until he gets healthier and in better shape and play Hill some. There are other ways to get Hill some minutes too, though he needs to try lineups in practice first.

Regarding Meeks, I really wish he got more PT. Kobe shouldn't be playing full quarter stints IMO, and overall he's averaging a bit too many minutes. Give those to Meeks, let him keep developing a rythm.
You could also try a Kobe-Meeks backcourt. With the Steves out Kobe's already doing a lot of the playmaking, who says that couldn't work for a while? And I think we'd see some good results.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Lakerjones on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:54 am

Finwë wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
Finwë wrote:^^ I agree to some extent, but I still thought we didn't come out the way we needed to.
Kobe tried hard on O, but didn't on D. Pau didn't try at all. Howard's FTs killed any momentum. MWP was good 1 on 1 but got lost after running through screens, didn't fight through them hard enough. Transition D was awful, and second efforts were non-existant.
Pau wasn't out there down the stretch because he was blatantly awful before when he did get a chance to do something.

I agree we have MANY problems, some fixable, some not so much, but for a LONG time this team's level of effort has been very inconsistent. The Lakers are notorious for not giving it their all every game. Dumb a** Barkley was saying circa 2011 that some nights we go out "Hollywood" style, just lazy and not vary engaged. He was right and it's been true ever since.
Teams with lesser talent win because they play hard every game. We have way more talent than Memphism but they play 10x harder than us. They hustle, they play D, they box out and rotate. We do sometimes, and sometimes we don't.

Maybe Nash's presence and his ability to get guys involved with help getting the team more engaged on both ends. We need energy and chemistry, which are as key in defense as systematic coaching decisions. Phil didn't run many defensive drills, but he motivated, he influenced guys to try hard and trust each other (during his championship stretch).


I'll agree that the defensive intensity and focus was lacking in general. But it wasn't all about effort or unprofessionalism. You have to look at the coach, too. He doesn't coach with that in mind. His whole philosophy is based on outscoring the opponent. Look, if he wanted more effort then why didn't he play Jordan Hill who gives the most effort of the entire team? Why not play Meeks?

Oh I agree, I was just saying that effort is still a key variable, and it's still a big ?
Of course we have other issues, and of course D'Antoni needs to adjust things.

He said that it's hard to find minutes for HIll because Jamison is playing the 4. I don't think that necessarily needs to be the case. As a temporary solution, I'd play Pau less (though I would've put him in in the 4th when hack-a-dwight was killing us) until he gets healthier and in better shape and play Hill some. There are other ways to get Hill some minutes too, though he needs to try lineups in practice first.

Regarding Meeks, I really wish he got more PT. Kobe shouldn't be playing full quarter stints IMO, and overall he's averaging a bit too many minutes. Give those to Meeks, let him keep developing a rythm.
You could also try a Kobe-Meeks backcourt. With the Steves out Kobe's already doing a lot of the playmaking, who says that couldn't work for a while? And I think we'd see some good results.


^^ Very much agree with you on all of that Finwë. :beer:
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby CaCHooKa Man on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:57 am

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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby purp n gold on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:07 am

Not surprised by this team anymore. We can't hit free throws and we can't defend for consecutive quarters. That screams ".500" to me.

Until those things change we're going to live and die by 3's. Welcome to Mike D'Antoni's Los Angeles!
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby Lakerjones on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:14 am

purp n gold wrote:Not surprised by this team anymore. We can't hit free throws and we can't defend for consecutive quarters. That screams ".500" to me.

Until those things change we're going to live and die by 3's. Welcome to Mike D'Antoni's Los Angeles!


In addition we're riddled with health concerns. Nash and Blake are both down for long periods of time. That leaves us starting Morris and you know that's going to take its toll on the W-L ratio. Now Pau's knees are hurting as well. Also clearly D12 hasn't played consistent ball as he's still recovering. Throw in the fact that Kobe is playing big minutes and full quarters again (Thanks D' Antoni) and running the offense so he's going to burn himself out sooner than later.

Argh!
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby purp n gold on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:23 am

Dwight getting into shape and the return of the Steves may change a few of those things... but until I see it, we're not any better than win 1/lose 1.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby thkthebest on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:43 am

Dwight's FT shooting. Come on Dwight. Just get back to your damn career averages. Geez.

Kobe's defense. His defense was soooo bad.

Defense overall was just bad though.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:01 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:
JGC wrote:
JLaker17 wrote:There is no excuse losing to a team like the Magic with the talent we have. Under .500 is pathetic and the team needs to wake up.


I agree with you, but not everyone shares that sentiment.

I had some exchanges going in the GD thread with some folks who were saying we have some good excuses.

I've been saying it since the beginning, but I'll keep saying it. The roster is flawed. Doesn't need to be blown up, but it needs a couple of major tweaks.


See I don't know if I agree that the roster is flawed. They look unstoppable on some nights and then awful on others. If we were barely beating teams and then getting wrecked in the losses I would agree, but we have shown signs of being an elite team but they haven't been able to put it together consistently which is why we're 8-9. Maybe they need time for the wins to become consistent? It might be too late by that time though.


I'm not sure how could anybody say this roster isn't flawed with a straight face ... well not a good fit for today's NBA is a better definition ... you need quick and athletic players on the perimeter ... and a mobile 4 to defend at a high level ... we got nothing of this in our starting lineup ... yesterday was the perfect example ... Magic played with a 3 guards lineup which just toyed with our D , especially down the stretch ... Kobe , Metta and Duhon were easily taken off the dribble and out of the picture by screens/off the ball movement from JJ, Afflalo and Nelson...

It has been the same pb since the Dallas sweep ... the league style of play has changed , our roster hasn't adjusted to this change
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby themasterphil on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:04 am

I am serious now, are we going to make a playoff this season????.....for me its hard to say, because as Rambis sad, Nash is the worst defensive player on this team and he wasnt there, what will happen then. They cant play defense, and lets be honest, teams without defense always sucks and cant win anything. I am also tired of this Howard talks about time, process and all of that garbage, I just dont buy it anymore. You need to go to the gym and practice FT. I dont play basketball too much anymore but I can shoot FT at 80% in the middle of the night....so you can work on that and be better, but you need to practice a lot.
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Re: WMC 12/13: No Magic for LA (8-9)

Postby lakersin4 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:30 am

We always struggle in the 3rd. Seems like as good of time as any to get Hill minutes & rest Pau so that he can play the first 10 minutes in the 4th to avoid Hack a Dwight. We always seem sluggish in the 3rd. Energy guys like Hill & Meeks need to play.
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