WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Doc Brown on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:22 am

Vasashi17 wrote:The thing about that is, are our starting 5 being used effectively?

I don't think they are....and that is where MDA is hugely at fault.


Lakers starters - 75.3 ppg / 32.3 rpg / 16.8 apg / 5.4 steals / 4.1 blocks / 11.7 TPG / 47%FG / 83.8 eff.
Opponents - 67.6 ppg / 27.7 rpg / 16.3 apg / 5.7 steals / 3 blocks / 8.6 TPG / 46% FG / 76.9 eff.

Across the board offensively our starters are better than the opponents. It's your biased opinion against MDA for the reason they aren't being used effectively. On average with our starters on the floor we are winning offensively by 8 points a game. How much more effective should they be? Miami's starters in comparison outscore their opponents by 11 points a game on 88.8 efficiency. Is Spo not using his starters effectively either? A 3 point and 5 point swing in points/efficiency isn't that big of a drop off and Miami has one of the best starting units in the league.

If you are talking defense, I don't know what to tell you. This league has turned into a league full of athletes that can cover from the 3 point line to the paint in seconds. We on the other hand have 4 out of prime players in the starters with a prime player that just now is getting back into his old self. This isn't the Lakers championship team anymore.

Nash is almost 40 and has to guard the hardest position in basketball. Kobe is in his 17th season and can't consistently lock people down anymore. MWP is past his prime and one screen eliminates him on defense. Pau hasn't been able to play defense for years. That leaves D12 to cover for everybody. This team sucks defensively or not used effectively because they can't keep up with the league for 48 minutes.

This isn't 2008 anymore, those players that were in their prime, 5 years later they aren't anymore. You're expecting things from players on defense (previous posts confirm this), that simply can't be done anymore because they are 1-2 years from retirement. But this is MDA's fault?

What team has been effective with 4 of their 5 starters 1-2 years from retirement?

I love JVG, but he came out recently saying that MDA deserves respect for not forcing his quick offense on this team and going to the strengths of this team. So our huge front line is resorted to PnR or stretch players, while our guards dominate the ball and try to play set-up. Still 7 man rotations....since December. Please tell me otherwise, how the direction and utilization of this team hasn't been done correctly?


Have you seen D12 in the post? He sucks. He's the number 1 ranked pick and roll guy last year and it's MDA's fault because he's running pick and roll with the D12 and Nash the two best pick and roll players in the game. That's a joke man c'mon.

The Kobe and Pau pick and roll is a highly efficient play to run, so why not run it?

Stretch players? You are referring to Pau, I'm assuming, but if you have watched the games since his return he hasn't stretched the floor because he's been playing exclusively on the elbow and in the post. When was the last time Pau played a stretch anything? The beginning of the season? But it's MDA's fault he's moved by closer the basket.

Our guards play set up? :man3: WHO doesn't do that in the NBA? That's what basketball is, the perimeter players look for the bigs and score. You're blaming MDA for something 100% of the league does and that is the perimeter players play setup and dominate the ball.

7 man rotations since December? Is this a joke?

Dec.2 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 4 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 5 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 7 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 9 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 11 - 8 man rotation
Dec. 14 - 8 man rotation
Dec. 16 - 8 man rotation
Dec. 22 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 25 - 8 man rotation
Dec. 26 - 9 man rotation
Dec. 28 - 9 man rotation
Jan.1 - 8 man rotation
Jan.4 - 8 man rotation
Jan.6 - 9 man rotation
Jan.8 - 9 man rotation
Jan.9 - 9 man rotation
Jan.11 - 10 man rotation
Jan.13 - 9 man rotation
Jan.15 - 9 man rotation
Jan.17 - 8 man rotation
Jan.20 - 8 man rotation
Jan.21 - 8 man rotation
Jan.23 - 9 man rotation
Jan.25 - 9 man rotation
Jan.27 - 9 man rotation
Jan.29 - 9 man rotation
Jan.30 - 9 man rotation
Feb.1 - 8 man rotation
Feb.3 - 8 man rotation
Feb. 5 - 9 man rotation
Feb.7 - 9 man rotation
Feb 8 - 8 man rotation
Feb.10 - 8 man rotation
Feb.12 - 8 man rotation
Feb.14 - 8 man rotation
Feb.20 - 8 man rotation
Feb.22 - 8 man rotation
Feb.24 - 8 man rotation
Feb.25 - 8 man rotation
Feb.28 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 3 - 8 man rotation
Mar.5 - 8 man rotation
Mar.6 - 9 man rotation
Mar. 8 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 10 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 12 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 13 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 15 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 22 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 25 - 9 man rotation
Mar. 27 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 28 - 8 man rotation
Mar. 30 - 8 man rotation

Do your homework next time maybe? There was about 5 games that he went 7 man rotation since December. Mostly recently the 3 games so far in April where Nash/MWP are out.

We don't see the blitzing offense that we normally would with MDA....but his imprints are all over this mess. And just look at how low we have fallen on the defensive front even with capable defenders on this team....I respectfully disagree with JVG...MDA's imprints are all over this team. But it felt good to see JVG associated in some way with the Lakers...maybe its something to look forward to.


Are defensive has fallen off? I wonder why? It's not 2008-2010 anymore. We are an old team playing in a league where speed and youth kill. We have capable defenders by name only, not on court skill. Kobe can't lock down for entire games anymore, MWP can try but he's lost a step. Pau has never played defense effectively. Nash can't lock down anyone. We have two capable defenders. Clark and D12. The others have lost a step or weren't good to begin with. This is 2013 now, our players are on the decline, while the league is getting into their prime. You can't just say ohh we have Kobe/MWP/D12 we will be a good defensive team. It doesn't work that way.

We are top heavy, but if the top was used right, you don't need to overly rely on the bottom...right? In fact, if you utilize the top efficiently, you don't have to overuse the top....and maybe, just maybe...you don't drive these guys into an injury plagued season.


So why are you complaining about the 7 man rotations? Our top 5 is outplaying the opponents and winning by a nice margin, while playing efficiently. We should be winning all these games. We don't need to use the bench, we are winning with the starters. He overuses the starters because the bench can't be relied upon to hold leads. Combine that with the injuries to two starters and you get what we are seeing.

Drive these guys to an injury plagued season? What the hell is that?

Nash broke his leg in the beginning of the season
Kobe sprained his ankle by a dirty play by Jones
MWP tore his meniscus by slipping on a wet spot on the floor
Pau has been breaking down ever since last year
Blake got hurt stepping on a spike strip and pulled his ab muscle without contact
Hill got hurt for the season and he wasn't even playing starters minutes
D12 tore his labrum due to a guy stripping the ball from him

C'mon this is ridiculous. Those aren't injuries you get from being run into the ground. You're just trying to deflect blame on MDA because you have a biased opinion towards him. Look at this objectively.



Management needed to make the smaller moves to shore up the roster....but their most erroneous move was the hiring of MDA with far more accomplished and decorated candidates available. The season was lost then IMHO.


The most erroneous move was getting a super lineup without addressing the needs of the bench.

Lakers bench - 26.8 ppg / 12.5 reb / 5.3 apg / 1.8 spg / 1.0 bpg / 3 tpg / 44%FG / 30.2 eff
Opponents - 33.4 ppg / 15 reb / 7.1 apg / 2.9 spg / 1/8 bpg / 3.9 tpg / 44%FG / 38.0 eff

We are getting outplayed across the board because we have no depth. That's losing us ball games. MDA is a dumba** because he's trying to win ball games by playing the starters because the bench is getting outscored by the same margin, the starters gain.

It's easy to say ohhh MDA sucks and this and that, but when you actually take a step back there are a bunch of other variables that go into why this season has been a bust. MDA isn't the greatest coach by any means and I would like to see a different coach for the team, but to continually blame him for a team that is poorly assembled and lacks any depth beyond player 8 on the roster is just ignorance.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:51 am

^Great post. True on all accounts. Our roster is flawed. I had high expectations coming into the season; but it just hasn't worked out. Our defense is horrendous. We're old, slow, and not very athletic. That's been the case the whole season and has been exploited quite frequently. Until this roster is more properly balanced, we're not going anywhere.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:03 am

^ Well if we were healthy we'd have more balance, but we haven't been healthy either. There were obvious flaws COMING INTO the season that most of us acknowledged, but given health would have likely been disguised.

We started off on the wrong foot and all of those flaws weren't just present, they were exacerbated. Our lack of depth was an obvious problem, well Dwight was a shadow and we lost Steve Nash and Steve Blake almost immediately. Athleticism was a problem and we lost Hill for the season. Defense and energy were an issue, which made that Hill injury worse and then we lost Metta. Ball movement was going to be a problem after Steve went down and we lost our best big man passer in Pau.

We need to balance the roster next season, but that's not going to change much if we have another season full of injury like this.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:10 am

I don't expect another season like this next year. This has been one of the strangest seasons I've ever seen with a Lakers team. You're right; if we we were healthy, we'd have more balance. However, would we still be a championship team? I don't believe so, IMO.

This season could be a blessing in disguise. Meaning, we could address our needs in the off-season and start getting rid of these deadweight contracts and building a team that could contend against the elite in this league.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:13 am

It's hard to say whether we'd be a Championship team, but I think we'd have been a definite contender. Imagine if Dwight was this healthy earlier in the season, we'd have a good 2-3 more wins at least. Imagine if we didn't lose Nash for about half the season, we'd have a good 2-3 more wins. Same with Pau. If we'd had Hill and Blake off the bench consistently all season we'd probably have 2-3 more wins there too.

If some of those overlap, that's still probably 5-6 more wins. That puts us at 6th seed. If we don't lose our owner and go through a coaching change we probably play a little better too.

Agreed though that our lack of balance would probably end up biting us in the butt in the playoffs.

And yes I think this season should and will speed up the retool process. At least I hope so.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:34 am

Doc.... I'm not much of a stat guy but the "Starter" stats you posted seem incomplete without minutes per game.... If our starters have to play extended minutes because of the lack of a bench then those stats should be viewed a little differently....

I'm not a fan of MDA but what we've seen this year is in no way a result of coaching. The ones that long for Phil would be just as frustrated right now with Nash having to play the Triangle and Howard getting waaaaay too many back to the basket post touches..... Phil can do a lot of things but turning the clock back 5 years isn't one of them.....

This debacle is part the fans thinking that these HOF players are even close to what they were 5 years ago.... part lack of floor balance.... part age/lack of athleticism.....part community college bench.... and part coaching....

For me, not investing in another player that can create shots for himself and others has been the biggest issue. Kobe is the only guy on this team that can score at will and that has killed us again and again. Not pulling the trigger on Pau last summer will leave a lasting impression on this and future Laker teams I'm afraid....
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:50 am

No disrespect to either Helljumper or Doc, but I can't systematically breakdown your posts. Just don't have the time to do so, but I will do my best in addressing you both and I do appreciate your efforts in expressing your opinions while refuting mine.

There is no secret I do not like MDA as a coach for THIS team. From day 1, there has been a group of us at CL that just didn't understand the move that the FO made. We had an older lineup that was not capable of going up and down on offense as MDA had that Suns team going up in Phoenix. Just cause we had defensive names like Dwight and Metta (who came into this season in tip top shape) made it sufficient for management to go with a coach that was known for offense and not much else.

I understand that most of you believe our roster to be garbage and ill-fitting, but if you took the majority opinion back in the summer, most of us had us title bound barring significant injury (ie Kobe and Dwight would be classified as significant injuries and they both remained available for the majority of the season). We all knew the risks involved with Nash (age) and Pau (the last 2 seasons where he's slowed down), yet most of us had this team as a title contender in the summer. For the most part we even liked the idea of the Princeton offense, only cause that would allow Nash not to be spent by the time the postseason arrived. So if I haven't stressed it enough...we all knew about the age of this roster and the risks involved, yet the majority here can't deny that they believed this roster had the legitimate ability to compete for a title. So where did it go wrong?

First of all, I said 7 in the post you quoted me. But I also said 8 man rotation in another thread....so I apologize for the confusion, but 7-8 man rotation when you have 14 on the roster is still WTF-worthy if done as early as December. Also, the minutes can't be ignored. Is it truly a 9 man rotation when that 9th man plays in single digits in a 48 minute contest? Nash was out when MDA came aboard...why the 7-9 man rotation as early as December if you are trying to get over the Nash injury? What is the point of leaving Hill on the bench early when you clearly have a size advantage on the opposition? Some of those rotations were made to encourage small ball, while ignoring any defensive advantage we had. I mean, maybe my HW assignment is completely different than some of yours...but the rotation was and still is a huge problem with this veteran team. Maybe I'll go hit the books some more to see what y'all are seeing, but at this moment in time, I still don't see it.

Some numbers were brought up where our starters are outscoring the opposing starters by 7.7 while our bench is being outscored by the opposing bench by 6.6. So being top heavy, we obviously are out-competing our bench. But then I can't ignore the minutes our starters play compared to our bench. If our starters play alot more, they're scoring more...correct? If they are trying to push the tempo of the game (an MDA staple), then they're going to score more than the average. My point is that is it efficient enough for Kobe to take the ball up the court, set the offense up via some variant of PnR and then make the correct read? Seems to me that he's taking on more by orchestrating the offense as opposed to getting it in his sweet spot and operating from there. How exactly is MDA playing to our strengths when he has turned Kobe into Nash? He has neutered the greatest SHOOTING guard in the NBA....hey, but as long as we're scoring...so what, right? Funny thing is that Dwight still complains about touches, so how is it that Kobe is handling the ball and trying to dish, is also putting up more shots than option 2-5? Is that really efficient? Giving Metta the green light to shoot from downtown, knowing that he isn't a great 3 point shooter and we're worse at transition defense....how is that efficient or effective as an offense and for that matter as a defense? Again, I may be doing my homework wrong, but if you ask me our offense could be hurting our defense.

The roster is top heavy and isn't deep...I will agree with that. Yet, I will also say that our bench hasn't really been given the opportunity to shine. Alot of us were stating that even if we picked up a free agent for our postseason push, would they even crack the rotation with MDA's stubbornness to relent from 7-8.

If you bring in another philosophy, maybe the team plays more to their pace. MDA wants more possessions cause that means he can rack up more points....but if you ask me, his offense isn't very efficient, so the more possessions we get in pushing tempo, will counter all the missteps we face in the process (Turnovers anyone?) Instead, realize that we have an older, veteran team and control the clock. Slow it down for their weary legs. Utilize each possession efficiently and then you have legs to get it done on the defensive end.

We can all agree that teams that have won multiple championships have had multiple stars on their teams...especially as of late. So a bench is needed in the regular season to make sure your stars have the legs and avoid injuries for the postseason. Going 7, 8 and 9 deep ( :man12: ) as early as December is pretty ridiculous...especially since Bernie countered the early losses to give MDA a clean slate. So far the man has given us a net of 3 wins....hardly efficient and certainly not effective in earning titles!

But alas, instead of lengthy back and forths and cyber-flexing our egos....lets just agree to disagree. You want to blame our lack of depth (which is a problem), while I blame our entire philosophy (which started with the FO wanting to run showtime with our slowtime roster). Why MDA then...shouldn't they have gotten Riles on the phone?
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:13 am

First of all, great number of last number of posts in here. The problems with this team run deep.
Injuries. Age & athleticism. No bench. No play maker other than Kobe. Starters getting run to the ground.

While I have been a vocal critic of MDA on this site, I am acknowledging that some things have been out of his control. Doc had a great post above that laid everything out and while I agree with most of it, there are still some things that I feel could have been done differently.

We're not going to erase Hill's injury, Pau's injuries, or Nash's body getting older. We're not going to be able to erase that Mitch and Jim decided to keep the Duhon's, Ebanks, Morris's, and Sacre's on our roster. We're not going to be able to erase that those guys aren't able to play at a high level. But the minutes Kobe has been playing this year are absolutely ludicrous.

Not everything may be MDA's fault, but he's sure as hell to blame for this team running an offense that is entirely dependent on Kobe handling the ball, drawing double teams, or going iso. It was clear from the beginning MDA's system wasn't suited for this team. But what we're doing now isn't sustainable or effective IMO. Granted this offense features occasional post touches for Dwight, PnR's with Pau and occasional Nash Pnr's, but there is not much else going on. Again partially due to not having another play maker.

Why is offense being brought up? Because we turn the ball over. What ends up happening on those turnovers?
Fast breaks. Not only can we not guard them, they morally deflate us. Our half court defense has been solid, and has gotten even better since the All Star break. I'm really not too worried about our half court defense. It could be better, no doubt. Much better, but it's not the number one issue. Reducing turnovers would do a great deed for this team. And frankly, that's all offense because we know we're not getting back in transition.I believe the Thunder is one team that averages more TO's than us, but because they are young and athletic and can score the ball with ease, their TO's are not an issue in terms of winning games.

We could have pulled the trigger on Pau, but that would've been bad news if Dwight ends up walking. If Dwight stays, we move Pau for a wing. If Dwight walks....the Pau scenario changes completely. We still move him, but we now need some combination of wings/bigs to come back.

My last gripe is playing the starters ludicrous minutes. Kobe should not be playing a second over 38 minutes per game. Part of that is roster flaws, and early injuries, but as a coach you can't do that. As coach your job is to put together a winning team formula that allows you to win without a main guy or two. Look at San Antonio, they can win games without Duncan/Parker/Ginobli on a given night. Look at Miami, they can win games without LeBron/Wade/Bosh on a given night. Look at Chicago, winning games without Rose and dealing with a handful of injuries, just like us.

I don't know how impressed I would be with Morris or Ebanks on the court, but I would be happy to not see Kobe logging 40 minutes. Yet Dwight is averaging 35.6 minutes per game but those 13 minutes he's out are the 13 minutes our defense is a joke. The roster management is TERRIBLE, and that cannot be ignored. With this roster you figure out a way to win without Kobe. You figure it out. This ain't Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Cook. Hell, I'll take them back with Phil as coach. We win more games. /end sarcasm
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby The Rock on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:34 am

By the way heres the flip side of resting Kobe...do you guys remember 2010/2011 when Phil wouldn't bring him back in until the 6 minute mark of the 4th Q? our bench would get beaten up and we'd already be in a hole or momentum would've shifted over the other team so bad it wouldn't matter if Kobe goes into beast mode late in games. Its a lose lose situation
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:48 am

We didn't have Dwight, Nash, Jamison, Clark, or Meeks then. We also came off of 3 straight Finals runs. So no.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Helljumper on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:50 am

Vasashi17 wrote:But alas, instead of lengthy back and forths and cyber-flexing our egos....lets just agree to disagree. You want to blame our lack of depth (which is a problem), while I blame our entire philosophy (which started with the FO wanting to run showtime with our slowtime roster). Why MDA then...shouldn't they have gotten Riles on the phone?


That's the thing though. I don't disagree entirely :man10: .Believe it or not, I'd prefer to have D'antoni gone too. My stance is that while D'antoni's not the problem, he's also not a solution. If we're keeping the core together and not making many personnel changes, I want us to bring in a defensive specialist as our head coach. But at the same time, if we make the proper personnel changes and get some athletic defenders to replace some of our older players who still get heavy minutes, we can still be an elite team (offensively and defensively) with D'antoni at the helm.

And my issue also has more to do with the FO's philosophy than simple depth issues. But I think that philosophical issue stems further back, and is more pervasive, than just a coaching mistake. We've been going after big names/glamor for too long. Yes, part of that problem manifested itself in us trying to bring back Showtime and hiring D'antoni over a coach that fits this team better. But that's the thing. I don't think there was a coach out there who'd fit the team much better than D'antoni (Yes, I'm saying that hiring PJ to teach the triangle on the fly w/o a training camp would've been a similar mistake of simply going after the big names). And that's because the team wasn't built to play together. For too long, we've been trying to go after the homerun moves that net us star players at the expense of building a cohesive team that plays well together.

I'm sorry to say this, but my main issue is that you are clearly very biased against MDA and giving him an unfair portion of the blame. You've admittedly been against him from Day 1, and it's evident from the way you still blame him from issues from early in his tenure that he has since corrected (again, yes, he was biased against Hill from his experience in NY, but once he gave him PT, MDA quickly solidified Hill as a rotation player). And making ridiculous statements like claiming D'antoni has neutered Kobe certainly isn't helping your case. Your post implied that we're calling you out on not doing your HW. I don't think that's the case. I think you have done your HW, but your hate for MDA has clouded your interpretation of that HW.

For starters, you're dead wrong about rotations. No, there is nothing "ridiculous" about a 9-man rotation in December. A 9-man rotation is what Phil (who'd supposedly be the savior of our team) primarily used in his last year. Yes, even in December. Kobe, Fish, Bynum, Pau, MWP, LO, Blake, Barnes, Brown.

You keep bringing up issues with the way our offense runs, but you're not recognizing that our playstyle has developed organically from the way our roster has been constructed. What other offensive alternative can a coach implement to make us more efficient? Have Nash dominate the ball and make plays? He can't do it anymore and IIRC, this was one of the major complaints about MDA from the beginning (people assumed D'antoni would force-feed his PG-dominant offense, something which clearly hasn't happened). Bring the ball up and run the offense through the post? I seem to get the sense that this is what you'd prefer, but again, I think this is more of because you're biased against D'antoni and thinking that anything different would be better. Do you think we'd be more efficient running the offense through Dwight in the post? With our lack of proper floor spacing, I think we'd clearly be worse off in both the scoring and turnover department. Kobe PnR/playmaking is really the only offense we can run. Yes, early in the year Kobe was willing to simply be a scorer and wait for Nash to find him in his sweet spots. But Nash can't do that as well anymore.

Sorry to cyber-flex my ego, but I can't help to respond to well-written posts that I happen to fundamentally disagree with.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:45 pm

HJ: Simply put, Jimmy is the guy that I'm in complete disagreement with. Flexing egos....none of us will ever compete with that guy. Unfortunately, that just trickled down to MDA. But its easier to replace the coach, even by having 3 on your payroll, than it is to replace the owner. Hence, MDA becomes my punching bag.

I'm not hiding my ire for the coaching selection...but I'm not letting it blind me from the fact that this team has cracks and chinks in the armor (although, I feel MDA may have ditched the armor to make them lighter and make 'em run faster, but that's another discussion :man1: ).

All I refute is that if you're bringing in a coach that has not won anything in his career...is not known for emphasizing defense...and has pretty much shown his offensive genius by being over reliant on guard play (heavy minutes and ball control by Nash, Lin and now Kobe), but then in post game pressers after a loss berates the team for being a 1 man show :freak2:...well that type of leadership is a major influence in this doomed season and I don't see how any of you can really be surprised in how I view our coach.

I completely disagree with the notion that Phil couldn't have done better. We're talking about Phil first of all. Secondly, our main players have either had experience with the man or have wanted to play for the man. Moreover, his track record speaks for itself...offensively, defensively and more importantly, hardware..ely.

We wouldn't be chasing down the 8th seed if you gave a more distinguished coach/philosophy the reigns to this roster with 70 games to play. Injuries will happen, but lets not act like rotations and minutes played don't influence that aspect of the game. Still, even with the plethora of injuries, our main two cogs in Kobe and Dwight played the majority of the season. In terms of results...they obviously weren't utilized efficiently.

BTW, I agree with Chillbongo....great discussion and quality posts. I appreciate the effort taken in this debate.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby The Rock on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:12 pm

Need to win tonight. Must keep their 3 point shooters under control, no open shots for Vasquez, Gordon or Anderson, we should win this game. 10 wins in a row in the regular season vs this team, hope we can keep it going
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby JGC on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 pm

IMO, the coaching change(s) have only exacerbated the real problem. Which is, as I've been aligned with since the beginning of the season, a flawed roster. Injuries too, have exacerbated the real problem.

We all thought Hollinger was absolutely insane when he predicted us a 4th seed in the West. People didn't even think it was off by a seed, they thought he had gone off the deep end with that prediction. And that was with MIKE BROWN as coach.

I'm sorry but you don't go from being a 1 seed to a 9 seed because you changed coaches and had some injuries especially when those injuries weren't to the top 2 guys (Kobe/Dwight). Sure, D12 wasn't 100% but he's been better (health wise) than the vast majority of people expected him to be prior to the season starting and even at less than full health he's still better than every center he has played against.

The only way a team with coaching changes and injuries ends up being a 9 seed, IMO, is if you were really like a 5 or 6 seed to begin with. I mean, it would have to take a lot more than what we dealt with for Miami to fall to a 9 seed, heck, Chicago lost their MVP Derek Rose and they're in the 5th seed. Dallas lost all of those players, had no Dirk for like 30 games, and up until the 70-something game of the season had a chance to take our playoff spot.

Does anyone think that we're playing really well when you account for what we've dealt with? You could say this for Chicago for example. Considering they lost their best player and a recent MVP, I think you could say they are playing well. Are they where they would be? Probably not but that is to be expected. In our case, can we say that? Can we say, considering the injuries and changes we've gone through, I think we're playing really well? I don't think I can honestly say that.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:02 pm

Well I agree with your post for the most part, the fundamental reason we won't win a chip is because of our roster. That being said, I think coaching makes a HUGE difference even with injuries.

Chicago lost their MVP but is still competitive in the East. Why? They're a defensive team and have a great system that allows them to score without their best player. To add, they do have younger, more athletic players than we do.

Dallas is really an enigma. They have had injuries as well and were in the hunt for our spot. Rick Carlisle? He's a pretty damn good coach and known for defense as well. And this is with their flawed a** roster with NO point guard.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:23 pm

^because the East sucks and the Bulls are use to playing without the injury prone Rose.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby JGC on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:33 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^because the East sucks and the Bulls are use to playing without the injury prone Rose.


Yeah but the point is that they have had injuries and are playing at a 5th seed level instead as a top seed level as you'd expect had they not dealt with injuries (Rip Hamilton, Noah, Rose) all year. If we were SUPPOSED to be a 1 seed in the West coming in to the season, then we should be like a 5th seed or so now in the West because of the injuries and other impacts.

A true 1 seed would likely have to deal with greater adversity than what we've had to deal with this season so to me, that says we are really like a 4-6 seed in the West and because of the things we've dealt with, have dropped to 9th.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:40 pm

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:^because the East sucks and the Bulls are use to playing without the injury prone Rose.


Yeah but the point is that they have had injuries and are playing at a 5th seed level instead as a top seed level as you'd expect had they not dealt with injuries (Rip Hamilton, Noah, Rose) all year. If we were SUPPOSED to be a 1 seed in the West coming in to the season, then we should be like a 5th seed or so now in the West because of the injuries and other impacts.

A true 1 seed would likely have to deal with greater adversity than what we've had to deal with this season so to me, that says we are really like a 4-6 seed in the West and because of the things we've dealt with, have dropped to 9th.


Thanks for clearing that up. I am sure I didn't understand that when I said "Because the east sucks and the Bulls, as a team, are use to playing without their star player." However, comparing the Bulls team who, again, is use to playing without their star for many games over the course of the last 3 seasons to a newly formed Lakers team who has had ALL ITS STARS injured is not only idiotic but a waste of time. We get it, you hate this team, and they were never good enough for you even if they were healthy....good for you. Moving on.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby abeer3 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:48 pm

5 minutes without a basket? really? who does that?
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Finwë on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:04 pm

Not even gonna complain about that run or minutes played by the starters or anything. Just glad we got the W and hoping we can get another one tomorrow. It's too tiring.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Back in 8th (41-37)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:10 pm

Unfortunately I'm no longer confident we can beat SAS, GSW, and HOU for those last 3 games. Even if the Spurs benched the starters they could still beat us considering the Lakers had trouble with the Hornets.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Kings of LA? Clippers? Wait What.... (40-37)

Postby Lakerjones on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:13 pm

Finwë wrote:Not even gonna complain about that run or minutes played by the starters or anything. Just glad we got the W and hoping we can get another one tomorrow. It's too tiring.


^^ Yep. More of a game than we wanted . . . but we'll take the W. Whew! Get that W tomorrow, too.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Back in 8th (41-37)

Postby Weezy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:16 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Unfortunately I'm no longer confident we can beat SAS, GSW, and HOU for those last 3 games. Even if the Spurs benched the starters they could still beat us considering the Lakers had trouble with the Hornets.


No longer confident? When were you? Back in August when we got Nash and Dwight? :man10:
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Re: WMC 12/13: Back in 8th (41-37)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:40 pm

Weezy wrote:
JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Unfortunately I'm no longer confident we can beat SAS, GSW, and HOU for those last 3 games. Even if the Spurs benched the starters they could still beat us considering the Lakers had trouble with the Hornets.


No longer confident? When were you? Back in August when we got Nash and Dwight? :man10:

probably not
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Re: WMC 12/13: Back in 8th (41-37)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:43 pm

Our perimeter players didn't put any kind of resistance on the defensive end for most of the game ( and for most of the season )... they get taken off the dribble so easily...

The way the Hornets easily repeated their offensive set with the double hand offs which led to the Davis dunk summarizes our D for the season : embarassing
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