WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:00 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
nameant wrote:Even if we were #1 in the west this was gonna be a tough game to get. Second night of a back to back in Denver against a young, energetic team?


Tough game against a pretty tough opponent these days. The reality is on a neutral court with rest Denver is a better team.... hurts, but it's the truth.


I don't agree Roos. Denver is explosive that is true. However, they broke out their margin of victory in the second quarter when we looked like we were in quicksand. The second half we out played them pretty effectively. Missed free throws and not getting back really hurt us. I am not saying we are a great transition team but we do seem to get better as the games progress. I look at the few blown layups by us, the weird rebounds or bounces and everyone clanking free throws and say if we cleaned up one of those its a different game. I know "If "IF" was a fifth we would all be drunk" but for me I didn't see a convincingly better team in Denver.



Well Puffy..... we can debate player vs player or coach or system or whatever..... what we can't debate is results. They are 8 full games in front of us and have the decided edge head to head. That's the only metric that counts isn't it?

Missing free throws is what we need to get used to as a fan base if Howard is staying. He isn't getting any better than maybe 55% or so.... that means we start games 5 to 7 points in the hole from the tip off......

That's the crazy thing about this season isn't it? We swap Bynum for Howard and Fisher/Sessions for Nash and drop 20 games in the standings..... The only ones still living the dream are the fans at this point.

The team is what it is..... that is not really that good. Injuries have hurt but I'm not sure we can point to them because even when we weren't that injured we weren't that good.

We're too "shallow" and we have too many "Alphas" who aren't that good off the ball. We have no "balance" on the floor and are running a system that has never won a championship. We have a GM that has given glowing votes of confidence in both Howard and the system/coach..... That's what it is.....
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:12 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
FabFourLakers wrote:I don't really think Denver is better than us...we can expect to lose at Denver any time we play there...esp on 2nd night of a b2b.

I dunno man, it's hard to deny that they are not better. Even their road record is superior to ours. I agree it is difficult to ball there, as well as with the b2b factors, but man....look at how they gel on the floor. That just shows they are better.

They force a bunch of TO's, get down on the break, have great ball distribution, and you can SEE that they LOVE playing with each other. Denver's a good team......


A lot of teams are better than us if you by our overall record. If we finish the season playing .700 ball there would only be 3-4 teams actually better
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:53 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Well Puffy..... we can debate player vs player or coach or system or whatever..... what we can't debate is results. They are 8 full games in front of us and have the decided edge head to head. That's the only metric that counts isn't it?

Missing free throws is what we need to get used to as a fan base if Howard is staying. He isn't getting any better than maybe 55% or so.... that means we start games 5 to 7 points in the hole from the tip off......

That's the crazy thing about this season isn't it? We swap Bynum for Howard and Fisher/Sessions for Nash and drop 20 games in the standings..... The only ones still living the dream are the fans at this point.

The team is what it is..... that is not really that good. Injuries have hurt but I'm not sure we can point to them because even when we weren't that injured we weren't that good.

We're too "shallow" and we have too many "Alphas" who aren't that good off the ball. We have no "balance" on the floor and are running a system that has never won a championship. We have a GM that has given glowing votes of confidence in both Howard and the system/coach..... That's what it is.....


I can see your point if that is the metric you chose. I remember before the Lebron effect all the talk was how the weak the Eastern conference was so much so that the 10th seed in the West was top 3 in the East. I use that to say records doesn't always mean "better." I won't say anyone is wrong for saying that they have a better record and they won the season series against us thus they are better. I for one just don't believe it. Call me a fan or fanboy (not saying you did) but thats what I saw.

As far as freethrows you are right we have to get use to it. His mechanics look much better but that doesn't mean he will get up to 60%. It is what it is. However, we have also shown that we can overcome that when we have energy on both ends of the court. Haven't we had that over the last several games?

What I don't get is how easily we dismiss the "injuries" as a main issue. Our main players have played app 20 games together this season. We have had 2 coaches, 3 systems and a ton of injuries. I know it seems shallow or "excuse" like to point to that but I think it has been a major issue. We have seen what happens when they have all gotten together. I look at that as the positive. Will it mean playoffs? I don't know. Does it mean Championship if we make it the playoffs? Long shot of course. In the end, we have seen that now that Dwight is showing energy and effort we look like a playoff team that can compete. That has a lot to do with health of our center in my opinion.

I agree we could use a little more balance but that is not stopping us from competeing. Our entire issue has been around effort and energy. Kobe started playing from the post and the guys started doing what Mike's offense said in moving without the ball. We move and we have improved. Do we need some changes? More than likely. Is the season over? I don't think so but that is just me.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:53 pm

Eh. It's all about control.

Right now our team chemistry is a whopping 1% and that's driven off of Dr. Buss's passing. The key to beating a team that's faster and more athletic than you is controlling the tempo of the game. If we keep our turnovers low and shoot high percentage shots, we can beat that team. Plain and simple.

Unfortunately we can't do those things right now. Partly because we're banged up, but partly because we don't know each other yet as a team. It might sound weird since we've had almost a full season together, but that kind of knowledge about another player comes with continuity and with time. We've had neither of those.

Right now? Sure. They're the better team. They're the 5th seed and we're fighting for the 8th. That should say everything you need to hear right there.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Lakeshow24 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:29 am

It was obvious the Lakers were losing that game from the opening tip. My goodness the pace was WAY too fast for any old team to handle. I had it on DVR (along with the Kings game), and after the 1st Qtr I decided to fast forward my way through the game to end the misery. I saw the score get into borderline blowout territory and I just went ahead and used my reserve energy to watch that Kings game.

Thank goodness for the Kings helping soothe my Lakers pains...
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:11 am

apparently we lead the league in most fastbreak points allowed.

yeah, we're not winning with that.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:57 am

The loss against Denver wasn't surprising. As others have mentioned, they are great at home and we're coming off a hard fought win over Dallas. Additionally, Denver is an extremely fast, athletic team and we have been having trouble with those teams all season long. Miami, OKC, Denver, etc. Teams that can pressure Nash, play the passing lanes causing TO's, run us out of the building, hurt us because we're not athletic nor fast enough with this roster...
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:02 am

well, i saw a lot of forced passes and bad shot selection that game.

it seemed like our activity level was nonexistent, and there was a little to no good ball movement.

GOOD half court teams can take these teams out of their game very easily.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:21 am

^ But we're just struggling at the 50 game mark to look like a good team. :man10:

Not to mention, we were on the 2nd night of a back-to-back IN Denver. Our energy level looked like it.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby hollywood swinger on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:37 am

this team is gonna have a very hard time getting over the hump to make the playoffs because we did not bring in a big body to help protect the paint when D12 is not in the game since gasol went down. Should have got a big that can rebound and alter shots just a little from the D league if necessary on a 10 day contract. We did not need a great talent just a big body that knew his only job was to rebound and try to block shots and on the offensive end just don't shoot when they play 12-15 min for D12. i am sure moron MDA told mitch don't worry about another big because i will just use jamison more and go small. this is killing us in spurts where D12 goes out of game. i am sick of this moron MDA. it's proof that he won't even give Sacre 1 minute when D12 goes out. this going totally small is moronic.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby The Rock on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:34 pm

To show how much injuries have decimated our team
https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847096647061505

The Lakers most used 5 man lineup has only appeared in 20 games together and only played 255 minutes. Incredibly low for this far into year.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847269234282496

Plus, that unit, the current starting lineup of Nash, Kobe, Ron, Clark, and Dwight has a negative efficiency differential. Yikes.


https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847555239698432

Further more, the presumed starting group coming into the year of Nash, Kobe, Ron, Pau, Dwight has only played 173 minutes together all year


https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847878645698560
In those 173 minutes, though, they have an efficiency differential of 5.9. Pretty good considering the "Pau/Dwight not a good fit" talk.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848057939591168

The killer part, though, is that if you swap Nash w/ Steve Blake for a Blake, Kobe, Ron, Pau, Dwight lineup, the numbers are fantastic.


https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848274575396864

That unit has played 104 minutes together (69 less than the Nash group) and the efficiency differential is +14.6. Much better on defense.


https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848480452833280

But that brings me back to my original point: these samples are too damn small to take anything from them. Injuries, man. (expletive)
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:36 pm

^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby gcclaker on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:44 pm

^On the national broadcasts I've watched...only one or two commentators voiced the injury wave has a been a major factor this season. One was Hubie Brown and I believe the other was Jeff Van Gundy. You figure more would be sensible enough to mention it but it's cool as it makes too much sense and doesn't spice up the story or conversation. No one on the squad would use that as an excuse either.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:15 pm

^you are right. I remember watching one broadcast and the announcers were talking about how the other team suffered a major set back with a player injured. They went on and on at how the team has had to work harder because of the loss. I waited to hear the next five minutes of talk when they started on the Lakers. It never came. They glossed over our injuries like it was Sacre that had a minor toe sprain. I was like :man3: no team has been ravaged by injuries like LA has this year. We have two major bigs out for the season (Pau/Hill), a new comer playing with a splint on his hand (EC) and our other Big is playing through back pain and a shoulder tear (D12) and they said nothing. They don't have to make excuses for the Lakers because frankly even with all the injuries we gave away a ton of game early in the season. You are right the team wouldn't use it as an excuse either. Do you think if this was the Heat, OKC or the Spurs the injuries would be looked over so easily?
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby gcclaker on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:22 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^you are right. I remember watching one broadcast and the announcers were talking about how the other team suffered a major set back with a player injured. They went on and on at how the team has had to work harder because of the loss. I waited to hear the next five minutes of talk when they started on the Lakers. It never came. They glossed over our injuries like it was Sacre that had a minor toe sprain. I was like :man3: no team has been ravaged by injuries like LA has this year. We have two major bigs out for the season (Pau/Hill), a new comer playing with a splint on his hand (EC) and our other Big is playing through back pain and a shoulder tear (D12) and they said nothing. They don't have to make excuses for the Lakers because frankly even with all the injuries we gave away a ton of game early in the season. You are right the team wouldn't use it as an excuse either. Do you think if this was the Heat, OKC or the Spurs the injuries would be looked over so easily?

Those teams would lauded for their resiliency and be anointed for NBA sainthood...no sarcasm too.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:28 pm

^Nope, if LeBron ever got injured the NBA would declare a state of emergency & national holiday. I don't even care anymore I don't expect anyone to give us the BOD anymore because we're just too damn good as a franchise. It's a cycle....when it rains it pours, but when we're back on top you know everyone's going to be praising the Lakers again. ESPN has taught me to have an iron will....I can live with it.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JGC on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:05 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.


Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:10 pm

And without Dwight we expected to have Gasol and Nash throughout that time period. Not to mention Hill and Blake.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:26 pm

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.


Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.


How can it not be the reason?

Our PG and Back-up PG both out for a long time with injury.
Our starting Center came back 4 months early and played at 70% for most of the season.
Our back up bigs Hill has been out for over half of the season already and will not return.
Our 6th man (Twan) was hurt.
Our starting big (Pau) was playing hurt until he popped his foot all together.
Our Starting SG (Kobe) was playing 40+ minutes a game because of the injuries.
Our 10th man (Sacre) was starting for us.
Our 11th man (Morris) was getting huge minutes (although I liked Morris) because of injury.
Our suprise starter (EC) is playing with a splint on his off hand and hasn't looked the same since getting hurt.

Again, we gave games away so that cannot be overlooked at all. However, there is no way to dismiss that not being able to play together, not being able to get a feel for each other and not being able to stay healthy hasn't kept this team from being in the Top 4 of the West. If it isn't reason #1 then it is reason #1A
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JGC on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:12 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.


Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.


How can it not be the reason?

Our PG and Back-up PG both out for a long time with injury.
Our starting Center came back 4 months early and played at 70% for most of the season.
Our back up bigs Hill has been out for over half of the season already and will not return.
Our 6th man (Twan) was hurt.
Our starting big (Pau) was playing hurt until he popped his foot all together.
Our Starting SG (Kobe) was playing 40+ minutes a game because of the injuries.
Our 10th man (Sacre) was starting for us.
Our 11th man (Morris) was getting huge minutes (although I liked Morris) because of injury.
Our suprise starter (EC) is playing with a splint on his off hand and hasn't looked the same since getting hurt.

Again, we gave games away so that cannot be overlooked at all. However, there is no way to dismiss that not being able to play together, not being able to get a feel for each other and not being able to stay healthy hasn't kept this team from being in the Top 4 of the West. If it isn't reason #1 then it is reason #1A


It cannot be the reason.

It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:18 pm

I don't discount injuries..... however injuries don't walk around the locker room with stat sheets showing them to reporters..... injuries don't get beat back on defense on just about every transition opportunity for the opposition and injuries have little to do with the fact that we have no one other than Kobe that can create his own shot.....

Having Nash injured early was an issue for the offense for sure.... but since he's probably our weakest defender it had to make that end of the floor less likely to falter....

Having Pau injured has actually helped the offense IMO. Clark fits much better with the other players and doesn't care if he shoots once or 10 times a game. Pau's rebounding is about the only thing we are really missing from what he gave us this year. Defensively I'd say Clark is superior and since he's playing more doesn't that make us at least potentially better defensively?

Have the injuries had an effect..... Yes. Has it ALL been negative? I would say No.

Floor balance, team speed and the lack of a second player that can create for himself and others has been and will continue to be our biggest weakness.... the injuries haven't made those missing metrics of our team worse because they weren't here to begin with.

To fully blame this seasons results on injuries is like blaming the fact that the bumper was missing from a 82 Chevy Cavalier for the reason It lost the drag races.....
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby The Rock on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:35 pm

How can injuries not be a factor? Dwight and Pau regardless of their inability to fit together on offense are still two of the best rebounders in the game when healthy. Rebounding is huge from that stand point alone we're missing out. Fact is we've always played with poor PG defense, poor PG net production, poor transition defense, but we've always made it up because we've had offensive rebounding to counter it, we dont have that. Pau has been decliing for a while now it was an ugly truth all of us didnt want to believe but still when healthy he brought more positives to the table than negatives. He wasnt an ideal or perfect stretch 4 but he was a solid fit when engaged...OKC, NYK and GSW Wins are great examples of that. We had the Big 4 and we beat these guys who are in playoff contention
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:42 pm

Injuries are a HUUUUUGE factor but a lot of other things are a reason we're struggling as well. I don't use age as an excuse either when you got the spurs down the street playing some excellent ball. Match up problems, team chemistry on the court,extended minutes for our older guys because we're so inconsistent, sub par defense, injuries and a few other things.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby The Rock on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:34 am

A lot of nerve for the Hawks to post this on their official account when they haven't beaten us since FEB 2006 and have lost by an average of 15 points a game in the last 6 years in LA

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/307010162256908288
According to Twitter, we pleased a lot of #Lakers fans tonight. Too bad they won't be smiling on Sunday. Go #ATLHawks!
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:30 am

JGC wrote:It cannot be the reason.

Your opinion.

It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

That is your opinion. You choose to simply say A+B=C therefore B+A=C but it doesn't count here. How can we play the best brand of ball as a team when the "team" is constantly changing? If you could plug and play then there would never be a talk of chemistry for any team.

I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And what would be the #1 issue for us this season? Energy? Effort? Coaches brain? Star player shooting more than 15 shots a game? Starting center not taking more than 15 shots? You see all that is "opinion" which is fine but it is not my opinion. Injuries have kept the team from being able to get use to playing with each other.

And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

You are right I would scoff at the idea of us beinga top #4 at the start of the season. Top 4 has HC advantage which is what I was getting at and top for in the West is WCF contender plain and simple.

I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.

Well I think people who dismiss the impact of injuries on a team especially to the level of player that is injured is just trying to hard to appear impartial. I didn't ask you to buy it nor even to agree with me.
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