WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

The loss against Denver wasn't surprising. As others have mentioned, they are great at home and we're coming off a hard fought win over Dallas. Additionally, Denver is an extremely fast, athletic team and we have been having trouble with those teams all season long. Miami, OKC, Denver, etc. Teams that can pressure Nash, play the passing lanes causing TO's, run us out of the building, hurt us because we're not athletic nor fast enough with this roster...

well, i saw a lot of forced passes and bad shot selection that game.

it seemed like our activity level was nonexistent, and there was a little to no good ball movement.

GOOD half court teams can take these teams out of their game very easily.

^ But we're just struggling at the 50 game mark to look like a good team.

Not to mention, we were on the 2nd night of a back-to-back IN Denver. Our energy level looked like it.

this team is gonna have a very hard time getting over the hump to make the playoffs because we did not bring in a big body to help protect the paint when D12 is not in the game since gasol went down. Should have got a big that can rebound and alter shots just a little from the D league if necessary on a 10 day contract. We did not need a great talent just a big body that knew his only job was to rebound and try to block shots and on the offensive end just don't shoot when they play 12-15 min for D12. i am sure moron MDA told mitch don't worry about another big because i will just use jamison more and go small. this is killing us in spurts where D12 goes out of game. i am sick of this moron MDA. it's proof that he won't even give Sacre 1 minute when D12 goes out. this going totally small is moronic.

To show how much injuries have decimated our team
https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847096647061505

The Lakers most used 5 man lineup has only appeared in 20 games together and only played 255 minutes. Incredibly low for this far into year.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847269234282496

Plus, that unit, the current starting lineup of Nash, Kobe, Ron, Clark, and Dwight has a negative efficiency differential. Yikes.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847555239698432

Further more, the presumed starting group coming into the year of Nash, Kobe, Ron, Pau, Dwight has only played 173 minutes together all year

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306847878645698560

In those 173 minutes, though, they have an efficiency differential of 5.9. Pretty good considering the "Pau/Dwight not a good fit" talk.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848057939591168

The killer part, though, is that if you swap Nash w/ Steve Blake for a Blake, Kobe, Ron, Pau, Dwight lineup, the numbers are fantastic.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848274575396864

That unit has played 104 minutes together (69 less than the Nash group) and the efficiency differential is +14.6. Much better on defense.

https://twitter.com/forumbluegold/status/306848480452833280

But that brings me back to my original point: these samples are too damn small to take anything from them. Injuries, man. (expletive)

^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.

^On the national broadcasts I've watched...only one or two commentators voiced the injury wave has a been a major factor this season. One was Hubie Brown and I believe the other was Jeff Van Gundy. You figure more would be sensible enough to mention it but it's cool as it makes too much sense and doesn't spice up the story or conversation. No one on the squad would use that as an excuse either.

^you are right. I remember watching one broadcast and the announcers were talking about how the other team suffered a major set back with a player injured. They went on and on at how the team has had to work harder because of the loss. I waited to hear the next five minutes of talk when they started on the Lakers. It never came. They glossed over our injuries like it was Sacre that had a minor toe sprain. I was like no team has been ravaged by injuries like LA has this year. We have two major bigs out for the season (Pau/Hill), a new comer playing with a splint on his hand (EC) and our other Big is playing through back pain and a shoulder tear (D12) and they said nothing. They don't have to make excuses for the Lakers because frankly even with all the injuries we gave away a ton of game early in the season. You are right the team wouldn't use it as an excuse either. Do you think if this was the Heat, OKC or the Spurs the injuries would be looked over so easily?

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^you are right. I remember watching one broadcast and the announcers were talking about how the other team suffered a major set back with a player injured. They went on and on at how the team has had to work harder because of the loss. I waited to hear the next five minutes of talk when they started on the Lakers. It never came. They glossed over our injuries like it was Sacre that had a minor toe sprain. I was like no team has been ravaged by injuries like LA has this year. We have two major bigs out for the season (Pau/Hill), a new comer playing with a splint on his hand (EC) and our other Big is playing through back pain and a shoulder tear (D12) and they said nothing. They don't have to make excuses for the Lakers because frankly even with all the injuries we gave away a ton of game early in the season. You are right the team wouldn't use it as an excuse either. Do you think if this was the Heat, OKC or the Spurs the injuries would be looked over so easily?

Those teams would lauded for their resiliency and be anointed for NBA sainthood...no sarcasm too.

^Nope, if LeBron ever got injured the NBA would declare a state of emergency & national holiday. I don't even care anymore I don't expect anyone to give us the BOD anymore because we're just too damn good as a franchise. It's a cycle....when it rains it pours, but when we're back on top you know everyone's going to be praising the Lakers again. ESPN has taught me to have an iron will....I can live with it.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.

Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.

And without Dwight we expected to have Gasol and Nash throughout that time period. Not to mention Hill and Blake.

JGC wrote:

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.

Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.

How can it not be the reason?

Our PG and Back-up PG both out for a long time with injury.
Our starting Center came back 4 months early and played at 70% for most of the season.
Our back up bigs Hill has been out for over half of the season already and will not return.
Our 6th man (Twan) was hurt.
Our starting big (Pau) was playing hurt until he popped his foot all together.
Our Starting SG (Kobe) was playing 40+ minutes a game because of the injuries.
Our 10th man (Sacre) was starting for us.
Our 11th man (Morris) was getting huge minutes (although I liked Morris) because of injury.
Our suprise starter (EC) is playing with a splint on his off hand and hasn't looked the same since getting hurt.

Again, we gave games away so that cannot be overlooked at all. However, there is no way to dismiss that not being able to play together, not being able to get a feel for each other and not being able to stay healthy hasn't kept this team from being in the Top 4 of the West. If it isn't reason #1 then it is reason #1A

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think people try to hard to not be bias when dismissing the injuries we have had this year. The facts are still the facts. This team has not had much time to actually play together and figure each other out. Even so we gave to many games away because we couldn't close out games. It may be too late to fix it but if they can continue to improve and grab that 8th spot we will probably be playing our best ball by time playoffs come. Anything is possible then.

Injuries have definitely played a part, but there was a time when we thought Dwight would be out until January and even then I don't think we ever expected to be a sub .500, non-playoff team.

I guess my point is that the injuries are a part of the reasons our record is what it is, but it's definitely IMO, not the reason we aren't elite.

How can it not be the reason?

Our PG and Back-up PG both out for a long time with injury.
Our starting Center came back 4 months early and played at 70% for most of the season.
Our back up bigs Hill has been out for over half of the season already and will not return.
Our 6th man (Twan) was hurt.
Our starting big (Pau) was playing hurt until he popped his foot all together.
Our Starting SG (Kobe) was playing 40+ minutes a game because of the injuries.
Our 10th man (Sacre) was starting for us.
Our 11th man (Morris) was getting huge minutes (although I liked Morris) because of injury.
Our suprise starter (EC) is playing with a splint on his off hand and hasn't looked the same since getting hurt.

Again, we gave games away so that cannot be overlooked at all. However, there is no way to dismiss that not being able to play together, not being able to get a feel for each other and not being able to stay healthy hasn't kept this team from being in the Top 4 of the West. If it isn't reason #1 then it is reason #1A

It cannot be the reason.

It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.

I don't discount injuries..... however injuries don't walk around the locker room with stat sheets showing them to reporters..... injuries don't get beat back on defense on just about every transition opportunity for the opposition and injuries have little to do with the fact that we have no one other than Kobe that can create his own shot.....

Having Nash injured early was an issue for the offense for sure.... but since he's probably our weakest defender it had to make that end of the floor less likely to falter....

Having Pau injured has actually helped the offense IMO. Clark fits much better with the other players and doesn't care if he shoots once or 10 times a game. Pau's rebounding is about the only thing we are really missing from what he gave us this year. Defensively I'd say Clark is superior and since he's playing more doesn't that make us at least potentially better defensively?

Have the injuries had an effect..... Yes. Has it ALL been negative? I would say No.

Floor balance, team speed and the lack of a second player that can create for himself and others has been and will continue to be our biggest weakness.... the injuries haven't made those missing metrics of our team worse because they weren't here to begin with.

To fully blame this seasons results on injuries is like blaming the fact that the bumper was missing from a 82 Chevy Cavalier for the reason It lost the drag races.....

How can injuries not be a factor? Dwight and Pau regardless of their inability to fit together on offense are still two of the best rebounders in the game when healthy. Rebounding is huge from that stand point alone we're missing out. Fact is we've always played with poor PG defense, poor PG net production, poor transition defense, but we've always made it up because we've had offensive rebounding to counter it, we dont have that. Pau has been decliing for a while now it was an ugly truth all of us didnt want to believe but still when healthy he brought more positives to the table than negatives. He wasnt an ideal or perfect stretch 4 but he was a solid fit when engaged...OKC, NYK and GSW Wins are great examples of that. We had the Big 4 and we beat these guys who are in playoff contention

Injuries are a HUUUUUGE factor but a lot of other things are a reason we're struggling as well. I don't use age as an excuse either when you got the spurs down the street playing some excellent ball. Match up problems, team chemistry on the court,extended minutes for our older guys because we're so inconsistent, sub par defense, injuries and a few other things.

A lot of nerve for the Hawks to post this on their official account when they haven't beaten us since FEB 2006 and have lost by an average of 15 points a game in the last 6 years in LA

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/307010162256908288

According to Twitter, we pleased a lot of #Lakers fans tonight. Too bad they won't be smiling on Sunday. Go #ATLHawks!

JGC wrote:It cannot be the reason.

Your opinion.

It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

That is your opinion. You choose to simply say A+B=C therefore B+A=C but it doesn't count here. How can we play the best brand of ball as a team when the "team" is constantly changing? If you could plug and play then there would never be a talk of chemistry for any team.

I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And what would be the #1 issue for us this season? Energy? Effort? Coaches brain? Star player shooting more than 15 shots a game? Starting center not taking more than 15 shots? You see all that is "opinion" which is fine but it is not my opinion. Injuries have kept the team from being able to get use to playing with each other.

And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

You are right I would scoff at the idea of us beinga top #4 at the start of the season. Top 4 has HC advantage which is what I was getting at and top for in the West is WCF contender plain and simple.

I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.

Well I think people who dismiss the impact of injuries on a team especially to the level of player that is injured is just trying to hard to appear impartial. I didn't ask you to buy it nor even to agree with me.

^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.

Rooscooter wrote:^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.

I understand your point clearly. However, I just look at it differently. We didn't have ball movement nor player movement. However, we are talking about the difference in a bench player who plays with hustle (Clark/Hill) to a star starters lol (Pau). Attitude has a lot do with what happened early with us for sure. Pau and Dwight complained about touches. MWP didn't care about touches he just launched everything insight and None of them knew how to play with Nash. I look at the "why" we made the turn around as opposed to the names. When Kobe started playing from the block Clark and Nash (and Twan off the bench) specifically showed what movement without the ball can do. The result was all of a sudden better play by the team. Howard early on could not or would not set a screen to save his life which negated the pick and roll. Pau is one of the best passing bigs in the game yet Dwight could never find himself open. Why? He didn't move without the ball. Pau worked great with LO and then with Bynum once Bynum started showing effort.

I actually believe that this whole seasons struggles start with "effort" (#1) and then Injuries (#2). My point over the last few post was just to say we can't just toss away injury as if it did not and does not have a huge impact on our teams chemistry issues.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.

I understand your point clearly. However, I just look at it differently. We didn't have ball movement nor player movement. However, we are talking about the difference in a bench player who plays with hustle (Clark/Hill) to a star starters lol (Pau). Attitude has a lot do with what happened early with us for sure. Pau and Dwight complained about touches. MWP didn't care about touches he just launched everything insight and None of them knew how to play with Nash. I look at the "why" we made the turn around as opposed to the names. When Kobe started playing from the block Clark and Nash (and Twan off the bench) specifically showed what movement without the ball can do. The result was all of a sudden better play by the team. Howard early on could not or would not set a screen to save his life which negated the pick and roll. Pau is one of the best passing bigs in the game yet Dwight could never find himself open. Why? He didn't move without the ball. Pau worked great with LO and then with Bynum once Bynum started showing effort.

I actually believe that this whole seasons struggles start with "effort" (#1) and then Injuries (#2). My point over the last few post was just to say we can't just toss away injury as if it did not and does not have a huge impact on our teams chemistry issues.

Well said, I'd like to add that we need to play SMARTER too. Playing smarter is something that takes time, but effort is something that can be applied immediately. Just look at some of our best games this year, where we played all 48 minutes instead of 3 quarters. Also I cannot stress enough how much more effort we need on DEFENSE. That is our biggest problem this year, we have shown we can score pretty easily even without a strict "system" in place, but DEFENSE is the reason we keep hovering around .500. When our combined point total with the other team is lower, we usually win. Injuries and chemistry tie into all of this, but for the most part we can play much much better defense with only a little more effort.

It's not one or the other. Laker problems, in no particular order of importance:

1. Personnel -- old, slow, lack of shooters, lack of shot creators

2. Injuries

3. Coaching/team philosophy -- even in spite of the injuries and our lacking personnel, it is quite frankly blasphemy for a team of this talent on paper - yes even on paper, to perform this poorly. This team does not play intelligently or to its strengths...

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:It cannot be the reason.

Your opinion.

Well, it could (and should) be your opinion too!

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

That is your opinion. You choose to simply say A+B=C therefore B+A=C but it doesn't count here. How can we play the best brand of ball as a team when the "team" is constantly changing? If you could plug and play then there would never be a talk of chemistry for any team.

Ahhh, now I see where you may be missing the point. If you don't mind, just re-read what I had originally written. I would feel comfortable saying that injuries are the #1 reason we aren't elite, if, I thought we did the best we possibly could with what we were left with because of the injuries.

Even when you take the injuries in to account, I don't think, with the pieces we had left, that we played anywhere NEAR the level of ball that we should have been playing, once again, even when you take all of the circumstances into account. You may disagree, in fact, you might think we did the absolute best we could with the cards that were dealt to us. But a cursory look at previous posts in here during those losses suggests otherwise. There is nothing to indicate that you (or any of us for that matter) thought we were doing fine and it's just an injury issue.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And what would be the #1 issue for us this season? Energy? Effort? Coaches brain? Star player shooting more than 15 shots a game? Starting center not taking more than 15 shots? You see all that is "opinion" which is fine but it is not my opinion. Injuries have kept the team from being able to get use to playing with each other.

It's been what I've been saying it's been since the beginning of the season. Flawed roster. Both in terms of skill sets and personalities. There are other issues such as injuries, coaching, etc and those exacerbate (add to) the main problem and that's why we are where we are now. No doubt injury is a problem, but injuries aren't the reason (for example only) that Steve Nash is, for the first time in his career, no longer really a point guard. Injuries aren't the reason we have Mike D'Antoni as the head coach and we run nothing that resembles what the coach actually wants the team to run.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

You are right I would scoff at the idea of us beinga top #4 at the start of the season. Top 4 has HC advantage which is what I was getting at and top for in the West is WCF contender plain and simple.

You really think Memphis has as good a chance as any other team to win the West? Do you think that because you think Memphis is really that good, or because technically speaking, any playoff team will 'contend' for the WCF and is by definition then a contender?

Even if we made it in to the spot (#4) that the mere thought of is worth scoffing at, that still isn't ELITE is it? Is a top 4 seed elite in your mind? Because my whole premise from the very beginning has been that injuries are a big reason as to why we aren't better, but it's not the reason we aren't the best.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.

Well I think people who dismiss the impact of injuries on a team especially to the level of player that is injured is just trying to hard to appear impartial. I didn't ask you to buy it nor even to agree with me.

I'd be a lot more inclined to believe it wasn't an excuse, if I noticed that a person had only been speaking to injuries during the course of the season. But instead, what I do see is, people (yourself and others and myself included) complaining for nearly 3/4 of the season how bad this team is, and Pau this and Kobe that and Dwight this and Nash that and then, when we're on the cusp of possibly making it, it's like "Cmon guys, twas only injuries!"

Look, we're on a good run and this is how it goes, I get it. When we're on a bad run we suck and when we're on a good run, we were only bad because of some external factor and this time it is injuries.

My take on this issue:
I would agree with Puffy in saying injuries have been our biggest problem, however, I wouldn't say that if we'd been healthy all season long we'd be an "elite" (top 3 in the West) team. I think we'd definitely be in the playoffs, but I don't think we'd be higher than 5th or 4th.
Like Rooscooter and others, I do see some flaws in the roster.

We lack depth, and our role players we rely on are VERY inconsistent (MWP, Jamison, Meeks, Clark, Blake).

We don't have many players who can effectively score 1 on 1 / dribble penetrate / create their own shot.

For each of our 4 potential HOF players, the system that would play to their strenghts and help them perform in the level that's gonna make them get in the HOF is different. They don't "naturally" fit in as much as we'd hoped for.

I don't think MDA is the right coach for the team.
Etc, etc, etc...

It took the team a LONG time to find a way to play where everyone was somewhat comfortable, and I think that would've been the case regardless of injuries.

So, to recap, injuries HAVE been the biggest obstacle the team has tried to overcome, but they aren't difference makers to the level of being the sole reason we aren't an "elite team".
Biggest problem, yes, but still a problem among many others.