WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:03 am

^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:25 am

Rooscooter wrote:^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.


I understand your point clearly. However, I just look at it differently. We didn't have ball movement nor player movement. However, we are talking about the difference in a bench player who plays with hustle (Clark/Hill) to a star starters lol (Pau). Attitude has a lot do with what happened early with us for sure. Pau and Dwight complained about touches. MWP didn't care about touches he just launched everything insight and None of them knew how to play with Nash. I look at the "why" we made the turn around as opposed to the names. When Kobe started playing from the block Clark and Nash (and Twan off the bench) specifically showed what movement without the ball can do. The result was all of a sudden better play by the team. Howard early on could not or would not set a screen to save his life which negated the pick and roll. Pau is one of the best passing bigs in the game yet Dwight could never find himself open. Why? He didn't move without the ball. Pau worked great with LO and then with Bynum once Bynum started showing effort.

I actually believe that this whole seasons struggles start with "effort" (#1) and then Injuries (#2). My point over the last few post was just to say we can't just toss away injury as if it did not and does not have a huge impact on our teams chemistry issues.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Nikez on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:48 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I don't necessarily disagree with the intent of this Puffy, but I'm not sold our problem this year is based on the team not getting to play together. The pieces don't fit IMO..... time doesn't change that. Clark in for Pau is proof enough for me. The ball moves, there is hustle and there is defense from our PF position now..... none of that was really present when Pau was in the line up. We miss Pau's rebounding but the rest of what he brought was redundant and impacted Howard.

I think a lot of people are comparing the peak of our Big Name players career with their expectations of this team as well. Nash is a shell of what he was 4 years ago. Howard probably won't ever be the player he was in Orlando because disk issues don't really ever go away.... Pau is not nearly the same player he was in 2009 or 10 and even the great Kobe is starting to slow down.

Having them all together would result in a better record right now.... but I'm not sold it would be much better.


I understand your point clearly. However, I just look at it differently. We didn't have ball movement nor player movement. However, we are talking about the difference in a bench player who plays with hustle (Clark/Hill) to a star starters lol (Pau). Attitude has a lot do with what happened early with us for sure. Pau and Dwight complained about touches. MWP didn't care about touches he just launched everything insight and None of them knew how to play with Nash. I look at the "why" we made the turn around as opposed to the names. When Kobe started playing from the block Clark and Nash (and Twan off the bench) specifically showed what movement without the ball can do. The result was all of a sudden better play by the team. Howard early on could not or would not set a screen to save his life which negated the pick and roll. Pau is one of the best passing bigs in the game yet Dwight could never find himself open. Why? He didn't move without the ball. Pau worked great with LO and then with Bynum once Bynum started showing effort.

I actually believe that this whole seasons struggles start with "effort" (#1) and then Injuries (#2). My point over the last few post was just to say we can't just toss away injury as if it did not and does not have a huge impact on our teams chemistry issues.

Well said, I'd like to add that we need to play SMARTER too. Playing smarter is something that takes time, but effort is something that can be applied immediately. Just look at some of our best games this year, where we played all 48 minutes instead of 3 quarters. Also I cannot stress enough how much more effort we need on DEFENSE. That is our biggest problem this year, we have shown we can score pretty easily even without a strict "system" in place, but DEFENSE is the reason we keep hovering around .500. When our combined point total with the other team is lower, we usually win. Injuries and chemistry tie into all of this, but for the most part we can play much much better defense with only a little more effort.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:06 pm

It's not one or the other. Laker problems, in no particular order of importance:

1. Personnel -- old, slow, lack of shooters, lack of shot creators

2. Injuries

3. Coaching/team philosophy -- even in spite of the injuries and our lacking personnel, it is quite frankly blasphemy for a team of this talent on paper - yes even on paper, to perform this poorly. This team does not play intelligently or to its strengths...
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JGC on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:54 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:It cannot be the reason.
Your opinion.


Well, it could (and should) be your opinion too!

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:It could be the reason if, in spite of the injuries, we played the best brand of basketball as a team that we could possibly play with the cards we were dealt, and that still weren't enough. But I don't really think that was the case.

That is your opinion. You choose to simply say A+B=C therefore B+A=C but it doesn't count here. How can we play the best brand of ball as a team when the "team" is constantly changing? If you could plug and play then there would never be a talk of chemistry for any team.


Ahhh, now I see where you may be missing the point. If you don't mind, just re-read what I had originally written. I would feel comfortable saying that injuries are the #1 reason we aren't elite, if, I thought we did the best we possibly could with what we were left with because of the injuries.

Even when you take the injuries in to account, I don't think, with the pieces we had left, that we played anywhere NEAR the level of ball that we should have been playing, once again, even when you take all of the circumstances into account. You may disagree, in fact, you might think we did the absolute best we could with the cards that were dealt to us. But a cursory look at previous posts in here during those losses suggests otherwise. There is nothing to indicate that you (or any of us for that matter) thought we were doing fine and it's just an injury issue.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I'm not saying we couldn't have been better without injuries, sure we could have. So I agree with the argument that injuries played a factor in why we don't have a better record than we do right now. Where my agreement ends, is in the contention that injuries are THE number 1 reason we aren't an elite team.

And what would be the #1 issue for us this season? Energy? Effort? Coaches brain? Star player shooting more than 15 shots a game? Starting center not taking more than 15 shots? You see all that is "opinion" which is fine but it is not my opinion. Injuries have kept the team from being able to get use to playing with each other.


It's been what I've been saying it's been since the beginning of the season. Flawed roster. Both in terms of skill sets and personalities. There are other issues such as injuries, coaching, etc and those exacerbate (add to) the main problem and that's why we are where we are now. No doubt injury is a problem, but injuries aren't the reason (for example only) that Steve Nash is, for the first time in his career, no longer really a point guard. Injuries aren't the reason we have Mike D'Antoni as the head coach and we run nothing that resembles what the coach actually wants the team to run.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:And a top 4 team in the West isn't elite. Memphis isn't an elite team and neither is Brooklyn. I mean, when Hollinger plugged us in to the 4th seed in the West didn't you scoff at the notion like everyone else?

You are right I would scoff at the idea of us beinga top #4 at the start of the season. Top 4 has HC advantage which is what I was getting at and top for in the West is WCF contender plain and simple.


You really think Memphis has as good a chance as any other team to win the West? Do you think that because you think Memphis is really that good, or because technically speaking, any playoff team will 'contend' for the WCF and is by definition then a contender?

Even if we made it in to the spot (#4) that the mere thought of is worth scoffing at, that still isn't ELITE is it? Is a top 4 seed elite in your mind? Because my whole premise from the very beginning has been that injuries are a big reason as to why we aren't better, but it's not the reason we aren't the best.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I think injuries are a big part of the reason why we're at risk of missing the playoffs, but to suggest it is THE #1 reason we aren't a clear cut contender to win it all sounds like an excuse to me and it's an excuse I'm not buying and others shouldn't either.

Well I think people who dismiss the impact of injuries on a team especially to the level of player that is injured is just trying to hard to appear impartial. I didn't ask you to buy it nor even to agree with me.


I'd be a lot more inclined to believe it wasn't an excuse, if I noticed that a person had only been speaking to injuries during the course of the season. But instead, what I do see is, people (yourself and others and myself included) complaining for nearly 3/4 of the season how bad this team is, and Pau this and Kobe that and Dwight this and Nash that and then, when we're on the cusp of possibly making it, it's like "Cmon guys, twas only injuries!"

Look, we're on a good run and this is how it goes, I get it. When we're on a bad run we suck and when we're on a good run, we were only bad because of some external factor and this time it is injuries.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Finwë on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:40 pm

My take on this issue:
I would agree with Puffy in saying injuries have been our biggest problem, however, I wouldn't say that if we'd been healthy all season long we'd be an "elite" (top 3 in the West) team. I think we'd definitely be in the playoffs, but I don't think we'd be higher than 5th or 4th.
Like Rooscooter and others, I do see some flaws in the roster.

We lack depth, and our role players we rely on are VERY inconsistent (MWP, Jamison, Meeks, Clark, Blake).

We don't have many players who can effectively score 1 on 1 / dribble penetrate / create their own shot.

For each of our 4 potential HOF players, the system that would play to their strenghts and help them perform in the level that's gonna make them get in the HOF is different. They don't "naturally" fit in as much as we'd hoped for.

I don't think MDA is the right coach for the team.
Etc, etc, etc...

It took the team a LONG time to find a way to play where everyone was somewhat comfortable, and I think that would've been the case regardless of injuries.

So, to recap, injuries HAVE been the biggest obstacle the team has tried to overcome, but they aren't difference makers to the level of being the sole reason we aren't an "elite team".
Biggest problem, yes, but still a problem among many others.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JGC on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:50 pm

Finwë wrote:My take on this issue:
I would agree with Puffy in saying injuries have been our biggest problem, however, I wouldn't say that if we'd been healthy all season long we'd be an elite team. I think we'd definitely be in the playoffs, but I don't think we'd be higher than 5th or 4th.
Like Rooscooter and others, I do see some flaws in the roster.
We lack depth, and our role players we rely on are VERY inconsistent (MWP, Jamison, Meeks, Clark, Blake). We don't have many players who can effectively score 1 on 1 / dribble penetrate / create their own shot.
For each of our 4 potential HOF players, the system that would play to their strenghts and help them perform in the level that's gonna make them get in the HOF is different. They don't "naturally" fit in as much as we'd hoped for.
I don't think MDA is the right coach for the team.
Etc, etc, etc...

It took the team a LONG time to find a way to play where everyone was somewhat comfortable, and I think that would've been the case regardless of injuries.

So, to recap, injuries HAVE been the biggest obstacle the team has tried to overcome, but they aren't difference makers to the level of being the sole reason we aren't an "elite team".
Biggest problem, yes, but still a problem among many others.


This. Without all of the multiple embedded quotes and such =)
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:59 pm

If Pau comes back and dominates off the bench I think he becomes the x-factor for our team because right now our bench is just too unreliable, they need that all-star quality leader (like Odom was).

We can win games without Pau in the RS but in the playoffs we'll need him in order to even have a chance of upsetting a higher seed.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:08 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:If Pau comes back and dominates off the bench I think he becomes the x-factor for our team because right now our bench is just too unreliable, they need that all-star quality leader (like Odom was).

We can win games without Pau in the RS but in the playoffs we'll need him in order to even have a chance of upsetting a higher seed.


^^ I absolutely agree, although I think even our chances of winning enough RS games to get us in would be a lot higher right now if we had him. I'm missing Pau.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:16 pm

What do you guys base the belief that Pau is still capable of "Dominating" anything anymore? Real question.... his deterioration has been acute and with his age and lack of strength seems irreversible.

At best he gets us some rebounding and a few points in relief of Howard..... but with a ruptured foot I'm not sure we will see anything even as good as we did THIS year from him if he comes back just in time for a playoff run that seem pretty optimistic at this point.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby JGC on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:26 pm

^ Roos... It's what I call "Hypothetical Asset" effect. Whenever a player gets hurt, his perceived on-court value goes up and often surpasses his actual on-court value.

When these guys are playing, their values are at their lowest. When they're hurt, they become that missing piece.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:28 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
I actually believe that this whole seasons struggles start with "effort" (#1) and then Injuries (#2). My point over the last few post was just to say we can't just toss away injury as if it did not and does not have a huge impact on our teams chemistry issues.


I can see this but I'm still of the mind that our "HOFers" are that because of what hey have done..... not what they can do now and certainly not what they will do in the near future.

Expectations were based on what we've all seen these guys do in the past with little regard for the limitations age, injury and game's logged as done to those abilities. That may have a lot to do with what you perceive as a lack of effort when in fact it's old, tired legs. Kobe not getting back on defense is difficult for me to believe as a lack of effort.... it's a lack of the body doing what the mind wants it to....

I'm saying that even in the best of circumstances this season we were only playing with one or maybe 1.5 HOF talent who is still playing at that level...... The rest have had fantastic pasts..... but they are no longer that player.... and in the case of Pau and Nash.... not that close anymore unfortunately.

Howard's injury was known before we traded for him so I discount his disk injury as a factor because there is no situation where that is different.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:30 pm

JGC wrote:^ Roos... It's what I call "Hypothetical Asset" effect. Whenever a player gets hurt, his perceived on-court value goes up and often surpasses his actual on-court value.

When these guys are playing, their values are at their lowest. When they're hurt, they become that missing piece.


I don't totally disagree with this..... strange.... :man10:

The "Super team" we all believed was here was actually our mental projections of these players best years transposed on the reality of todays version of them.

.... or the "Reality Distortion Field" known as "The Wagon"..... :man10:
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Re: WMC 12/13: Missed free throws, no Trans D = no .500 (28-30)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:07 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:^ Roos... It's what I call "Hypothetical Asset" effect. Whenever a player gets hurt, his perceived on-court value goes up and often surpasses his actual on-court value.

When these guys are playing, their values are at their lowest. When they're hurt, they become that missing piece.


I don't totally disagree with this..... strange.... :man10:

The "Super team" we all believed was here was actually our mental projections of these players best years transposed on the reality of todays version of them.

.... or the "Reality Distortion Field" known as "The Wagon"..... :man10:


Must be the vodka... :man12:
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:32 pm

Fun win tonight. Sure a victory was kind of expected against Minny. But a blowout? Nice!! :bow:

Man, it feels good to get wins again.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby The Rock on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:45 pm

What a world of difference having some time off in between games make. At no point in time I thought we were gonna lose this game tonight. We struggled so much in NOV, DEC and JAN because lack of continuity with players going in and out of the lineup and we rerarely had more than a day off in between games to work on stuff. The team is showing progress which is huge. We got a boatload of games in early APR vs playoff teams at home, hope Pau is back by then and we get it together. Im excited once again. You gotta put the teams away you're better than, lets see how we do vs ATL Sunday
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:02 am

^^ Yeah, Atlanta is going to be a bigger challenge for sure. Hopefully we finish this home stand strong and get that win to be back at .500.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby scheven on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:18 am

If we can't beat Atlanta at home at this point then we don't deserve to make the playoffs anyway
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:19 am

scheven wrote:If we can't beat Atlanta at home at this point then we don't deserve to make the playoffs anyway

Atlanta is playing fantastic basketball right now.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby lakersyunowin on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:24 am

horford has been playing out of his damn mind recently. it's gonna be a tough one.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby scheven on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:35 am

therealdeal wrote:
scheven wrote:If we can't beat Atlanta at home at this point then we don't deserve to make the playoffs anyway

Atlanta is playing fantastic basketball right now.

And so are we. If the season started today we would at least be 5th seed, which is probably equivalent to the Leastern Conference's 3rd seed. We're also playing them at home with 2 days rest. I'm not saying it should be an easy win but these are the types of games that we HAVE to win.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby King of Clutch on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:43 am

What are you guys talking about? Over the last 5 games, jamison has been THE bench anchor. Averaging just over 15points and 5 rebounds on 50% from the field and 50% from beyond the arc. The bench was THE reason why we came back against the clips after they were blowing us out. They held their own against denver too. Blake has continued to get better, and Pau would only add to that. Now I think pau should start when he comes back, because initially I wanted him off the bench for bench production. But since they're showing signs of holding their own, pau should stay a starter. Just adjust rotations to lessen the time him and howard are on the floor together. Because he still would get killed in PnRs playing the power forward role.

Now him starting doesn't mean the bench should play alone in their entirety. When you have 4 quality players, you should have no problems rotations wise on having at least ONE of those players in the games at ALL times. If D'antoni finds a way to magically make all 4 players be on the bench at any point in time, i'm gonna flip some tables!
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:58 am

scheven wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
scheven wrote:If we can't beat Atlanta at home at this point then we don't deserve to make the playoffs anyway

Atlanta is playing fantastic basketball right now.

And so are we. If the season started today we would at least be 5th seed, which is probably equivalent to the Leastern Conference's 3rd seed. We're also playing them at home with 2 days rest. I'm not saying it should be an easy win but these are the types of games that we HAVE to win.

Well I guess it just sounds like you're underrating them right now. The way you said it makes it sound as if they're equivalent to the Timberwolves and if we can't beat them then we stink.

All I'm saying is we could very well lose this game. :man10:

But I guess we're both right.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby The Rock on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:03 pm

The Lakers are just one game below .500 after their Thursday night win over the Minnesota Timberwolves.

Veteran point guard Steve Nash said he believes the Lakers have finally started to come together.

"We've kind of turned a corner and we're making improvements instead of continually taking steps back," said Nash. "I think that improvement was a long time coming but it's only the beginning."

The Lakers need to win at a high level to climb up from ninth place.

"We're putting ourselves in a position where we could climb into the playoffs," said Nash. "I really feel we're a long ways off where we could be, but we're getting better."

What was missing? What changed from the stretch where the Lakers seemed to regularly flounder?

"Time," said Nash. "We needed time together."

Even with forward/center Pau Gasol out with a foot injury, the Lakers have continued their slow climb in the standings.


They'll be tested over the next two games with the Atlanta Hawks visiting on Sunday and a trip to Oklahoma City and the Thunder the following Tuesday.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:22 pm

So Nash believes it took time to get them working well toghether. Hmm.. I heard that somewhere before.
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