WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby Ariza3 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:03 am

theyre just too athletic. only teams that can really beat them (not just a fluke game) is heat, clippers, and spurs (coaching more than players i think).

anyone else, including us, is just luck
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Re: WMC 12/13: .500! Finally flushed it home (30-30)

Postby Forward Three on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:11 am

Rooscooter wrote:Living by low percentage shots is not really living. Great shooting teams shoot 36% from 3..... that's not a way to win anything other regular season games.

We didn't score the final 6 and change..... Kobe didn't score in the 4th I believe.

Defense was beyond bad for almost all night. Our runs were more of OKC missing open shots than us changing the game.

Tough to win a game where your second best player stays on the bus....


x100

That's the truly deflating aspect of this team's "defense", whenever they do go on runs it is almost invariably a result of the opposing team simply missing shots than anything to do with pressuring the ball. Hell, even _stopping the ball in transition_, you know, defense 101, seems like a worse than 50/50 chance with this squad.

You just get this sense, every time OKC(or pretty much any other offensively talented team) has the ball that they will score unless they miss. I mean, we all knew D'antoni wasn't a great defensive coach, we all know Steve Nash isn't a great defensive player, but it's still just stupefying how _fundamentally_ awful our defense is. Like, we used to always talk about how Fisher was one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the game, but at least he played smart and fundamental defense within his ability. This current Lakers squad just... doesn't? There's like no describing it, they just don't. Dwight doesn't. Kobe doesn't. Metta doesn't. I mean, sure maybe in flashes, but overall they really don't play fundamentally strong on the defensive end and it gets even worse when talking about team defense and communication and rotating and help.

and then it is just so maddening because even bad defensive teams can still be effective, they just need to be able to create a stop at the very least and they need to be offensively consistent. The Lakers can't create stops and they are offensively inconsistent.

But I've harped on this so much, what really gets me, more than anything else I think, is that the complete lack of defense almost makes you feel like opposing teams are scoring faster than they even should be able to. Teams get so many opportunistic buckets against LA that they feast on without even having to get into their offense. Lakers give up 8-10 point runs faster than should be possible to score that many points. Every time Dwight splits a pair at the line it seems like the opposition simply gets an opportunity to score 2 in less time than they'd otherwise be able to if the clock hadn't stopped.

There's bad defense and then there is "Our defense is so bad, it actually makes opposing teams _better_", the Lakers veer into the latter.

I would not be at all upset if the entire team was blown up at this point. This team is a complete failure.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby Lakeshow24 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:32 am

Yeah... too young, too athletic, too talented that OKC team really is. The Lakers need a talented young BALLER to aid their roster.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:05 am

The inability of our team D to keep Westbrook as the not very efficient player he usually is , is the main reason we can't compete with OKC ...

He shot the ball at a good % and doesn't turn the ball over against us ... whereas he should stay around the low 40 shooting wise and TO the rock 3-4 times a game ...

The lack of both clear defensive schemes and players who are capable to make multiple efforts/rotations on the defensive end is a huge pb
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby KB24 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:37 am

Its really pretty pathetic that we get CREAMED on the road against any good team.

Looking at the big picture

The Lakers right now stand at 1-12 against playoff teams in the west on the road. Even though they have finally figured out to beat lottery teams...they still royally blow against quality teams. What a nightmare season. It really is the most spectacular flop I have witnessed in the last 10 years. Championship contention was the bare minimum and now we have to sweat for Cleveland to beat the Jazz to stay "in the hunt" for the 8th spot. Dr. Buss probably couldn't take this anymore and I don't blame him.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby abeer3 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:03 am

lol, it was a pasting, but it was a pasting on the road against the second best team in the league. one for which they were obviously highly motivated. everyone had this game chalked up as a loss. the only reason to fly off the handle is if you were one of the deluded few who still thought this year's team was playing for a title. they haven't been since december. they're trying to make the playoffs. teams in that position get spanked by the top seed in their arena.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:57 am

a lot of no contesting, wide open shots again, yet we were still close.

means our offense is clicking, but our defense needs a lot of tuning.

when westbrook gets a pick, he usually pulls up for the jumper. dwight is stuck between guarding the basket and the shot. he needs to contest the shot and the team has to rotate. i'm surprised this team didn't go into a zone, just to try something different.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby khmrP on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:12 am

Ariza3 wrote:theyre just too athletic. only teams that can really beat them (not just a fluke game) is heat, clippers, and spurs (coaching more than players i think).

anyone else, including us, is just luck


they swept the Clippers this season already and Spurs beat them because they play D and their starters a good mix of old/young and yes most important their coach use to be a pretty good on D and now he's even better on O :man10:
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:20 am

It's games like this, where I think you can really see how flawed the roster is. Sure, injuries don't help the matter, but I just do not see how having a healthy Pau Gasol and Jordan Hill would have changed the dynamics of this game.

One of the most glaring things, is that we don't have Steve Nash playing the Steve Nash role at ALL.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:31 am

^^^ We beat OKC with that injured Pau Gasol last game we played against them. So yea injuries do have a role. Kobe/Nash said last night Pau gives them that release point at the free throw line where Pau can shoot or make a pass, when they are getting pressured and the ball taken out of there hands.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby khmrP on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:31 am

JGC wrote:It's games like this, where I think you can really see how flawed the roster is. Sure, injuries don't help the matter, but I just do not see how having a healthy Pau Gasol and Jordan Hill would have changed the dynamics of this game.

One of the most glaring things, is that we don't have Steve Nash playing the Steve Nash role at ALL.


we weren't even winning games against bad teams when Nash got to play his role
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:44 am

Doc Brown wrote:^^^ We beat OKC with that injured Pau Gasol last game we played against them. So yea injuries do have a role. Kobe/Nash said last night Pau gives them that release point at the free throw line where Pau can shoot or make a pass, when they are getting pressured and the ball taken out of there hands.


LOL. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. At what point do you say, this team needs some changes? When we don't beat anybody ever? We got a win at home against them on a night when they were off (Durant/Westbrook shot 33%) and so did Minnesota once. So I guess Minnesota doesn't need any roster improvements either? Come on.

Plus we lost by 17. I'm not sure how Pau is going to single handedly account for a net of 20 team points. Love how Pau is the reason we lose when he plays, but he's the reason we lose when he doesn't play too.

Did you really conclude, after watching that game, that the difference between winning and losing that game was Pau? Really? I don't buy that. I think that's what people want to believe, because believing we're just not that good is harder to stomach.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby frankrj on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:52 am

JGC, some must be Jim Buss supporters on here. Lakers are just adamant believers that to win a championship you need a great center. No, an all-star power forward and a great guard, yes. The game has changed as has the officiating. Ask the Mavs, Heat, Spurs, Thunder, (Clippers). All have or had a great guard and all-star forward along with a better supporting cast to win a championship.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:54 am

That's because true centers don't exist anymore.

Tim Duncan is more of a center than Dwight is.

And yes, we support Jim Buss. We support the Lakers. He brought Dwight and Nash, you're gonna tell me you didn't support that?
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby frankrj on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:56 am

lakerfan2, No, No. I did not support bringing in Dwight. I saw him play many games while living SW Florida for a stint and was unimpressed (always in foul trouble, limited offensively, poor FTs) compared to Bynum. FastFoward to today, and neither one is worth all the press. Nash is too old @ 39 yrs old. He is better than J Kidd but seriously, it is not sustainable like the way the Lakers used to do it with good starting 5 players for 5 to 8 years. Championship or bust mentality is not a good strategy (Jim Buss). They should of strongly pursued a young PG at least instead of paying high price for one who is on the decline.
Team is still slow, old with an over-rated center. All L.A needed was a 2nd true scorer, quick PG, athletic guy and defensive forwards.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby ojdidit123 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:03 am

That's because true centers don't exist anymore.

Tim Duncan is more of a center than Dwight is.

And yes, we support Jim Buss. We support the Lakers. He brought Dwight and Nash, you're gonna tell me you didn't support that?

Nope we shouldn't have traded for Dwight we should've traded Bynum for Melo back when we had the chance. Instead we waited and fell for the trap and now we are stuck with Dwight who has done his best this year to solidify his place as the most overhyped and overrated player of the modern era "an athletic kwame brown" was a good way another poster on here classified him. Nash I'm neutral about because as old and worthless as he can be at least he's a better shooter than Sessions and we needed the floor spacing.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:21 am

We lost this game for two reasons:
1. They're better than we are.
2. Their bench came in and did what needed to be done.

I thought we were ONE consistent scoring option away from winning that game. We needed Gasol in the 2nd quarter. Martin came in off the bench and hit what 2-3 three pointers in our faces? We can't win that way.

I don't know if Gasol is the answer looking towards the future, but certainly we need another scoring option off the bench. Someone who can create for themselves.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:40 am

frankrj wrote:lakerfan2, No, No. I did not support bringing in Dwight. I saw him play many games while living SW Florida for a stint and was unimpressed (always in foul trouble, limited offensively, poor FTs) compared to Bynum. FastFoward to today, and neither one is worth all the press. Nash is too old @ 39 yrs old. He is better than J Kidd but seriously, it is not sustainable like the way the Lakers used to do it with good starting 5 players for 5 to 8 years. Championship or bust mentality is not a good strategy (Jim Buss). They should of strongly pursued a young PG at least instead of paying high price for one who is on the decline.
Team is still slow, old with an over-rated center. All L.A needed was a 2nd true scorer, quick PG, athletic guy and defensive forwards.


Well, there wasn't really a choice was there? It was between a center who was oft injured, was acting out, and was also looking to lead his own team (Bynum) vs a center who had drama, was not polished offensively, but had 3 DPOY and was fairly dominant (Howard).

Jim Buss DID try getting CP3, you know how that ended up. This team is severely over the cap and were in no position to pick and choose who they should trade for.

You heard Kobe, he says he has 1-2 years left. That may or may not be true. Mitch and Jim want to take advantage of the time we have left with Kobe. Championship or bust is a must.

Nash was still a leader in assists, and Dwight's still an impact player.

You really discount what our front office has done for this team, with some questionable decisions (mainly Mike Brown), but this season has been primarily affected by injury. There's no question about it.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:01 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
frankrj wrote:lakerfan2, No, No. I did not support bringing in Dwight. I saw him play many games while living SW Florida for a stint and was unimpressed (always in foul trouble, limited offensively, poor FTs) compared to Bynum. FastFoward to today, and neither one is worth all the press. Nash is too old @ 39 yrs old. He is better than J Kidd but seriously, it is not sustainable like the way the Lakers used to do it with good starting 5 players for 5 to 8 years. Championship or bust mentality is not a good strategy (Jim Buss). They should of strongly pursued a young PG at least instead of paying high price for one who is on the decline.
Team is still slow, old with an over-rated center. All L.A needed was a 2nd true scorer, quick PG, athletic guy and defensive forwards.


Well, there wasn't really a choice was there? It was between a center who was oft injured, was acting out, and was also looking to lead his own team (Bynum) vs a center who had drama, was not polished offensively, but had 3 DPOY and was fairly dominant (Howard).

Jim Buss DID try getting CP3, you know how that ended up. This team is severely over the cap and were in no position to pick and choose who they should trade for.

You heard Kobe, he says he has 1-2 years left. That may or may not be true. Mitch and Jim want to take advantage of the time we have left with Kobe. Championship or bust is a must.

Nash was still a leader in assists, and Dwight's still an impact player.

You really discount what our front office has done for this team, with some questionable decisions (mainly Mike Brown), but this season has been primarily affected by injury. There's no question about it.


Agree with a lot of this. Although, I am not sure if it is championship or bust. Why? We can rebuild after next season.

It doesn't make sense to me to forgo the opportunity to start over, possibly with Dwight as a big piece, to go all-in for just one season. Apparently it takes a full season to develop chemistry anyway and any injuries would derail any possibility of being good so the margin of error is too small.

Given how far we are from being able to compete, I'm fine with taking some chances on players next season, but only if they do not have contracts that extend beyond.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:19 pm

^^ JGC

Which is why many miss the brilliance of what Mitch and Buss did. Look at all of our players contracts. Say Dwight resigns, he and Nash will be the ONLY ones on contract for the 2014-2015 season.

1. Getting us out of the tax threshold.
2. Giving us room for another max player.
3. We should have the full MLE available after being out of the tax threshold.

That's ALL on top of the current roster we have. On paper, this roster is solid. Unfortunately almost every player we have has had an injury of some sort, literally. Brown was really the piece that needed to go and this team needed a revamp. MDA isn't a magician. He can't fix a team like that in half of a season, not to mention his main starting lineup has only played 150 or so minutes together.

This season has just been bad luck really. If we make the playoffs, a lot of teams would rather skip us than play us.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:29 pm

JGC wrote:Sure, injuries don't help the matter, but I just do not see how having a healthy Pau Gasol and Jordan Hill would have changed the dynamics of this game.

That is hilarious.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby frankrj on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Dam guys I gotta take time out to catch up with these new acronyms. Age of SMS I guess.
I know we will have cap space big time after 2014 and sportstalk swirls of getting LBJ so they really want to keep Howard now. Kobe is joking to me on 2 yrs left. His legs don't look too far off from those 1st 3-peat years. And his dedication to compete is second to none so he will play after 2 years unless he something major comes up. He'll probably restructure his salary if the team is championship caliber.
Looks like the front line is gonna be good. Howard (or no Howard), Clark, Hill. To me, I think just a few more good role quick "younger" wing players are needed. The value for trading Pau has diminished considerably.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Before D'Antoni was hired, most of the casual fans knew Howard was limited and came back early from surgery. Nash was about to be 39 and both Kobe and Gasol were not really the fastbreaking athlete types.

You had big frontline and your premiere player was a triangle guy. Even when Rudy3 came in, Kobe wanted more order and actually asked to re-install the triangle, but this time, he would play the Shaq-post role.

Knowing all this, our FO still went with the gimmick and look where it has gotten us. Kobe is playing the Nash role, while Nash is playing what role exactly? No touches for the post player you are trying to make your future and in the process ignoring his desire to play for the triangle, but instead going with the guy that thinks post play is the most inefficient way to play ball.

You can hit 2 homeruns during the summer, but if the skipper doesn't know how to use his clubhouse and manage the many egos present within it, then its safe to say that the FO took 1 step forward and 2 steps back with the decisions they made. Why?

Cause they ego-trippin. And now they've fallen HARD and it will take a change up top, to get back up...
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:37 pm

frankrj wrote:Dam guys I gotta take time out to catch up with these new acronyms. Age of SMS I guess.
I know we will have cap space big time after 2014 and sportstalk swirls of getting LBJ so they really want to keep Howard now. Kobe is joking to me on 2 yrs left. His legs don't look too far off from those 1st 3-peat years. And his dedication to compete is second to none so he will play after 2 years unless he something major comes up. He'll probably restructure his salary if the team is championship caliber.
Looks like the front line is gonna be good. Howard (or no Howard), Clark, Hill. To me, I think just a few more good role quick "younger" wing players are needed. The value for trading Pau has diminished considerably.


It's not really about injury or pain for Kobe, it's just time. He's been in the NBA for more than half of his life now. He probably just wants to settle and have a relationship with his daughters, go Italy and play at 50% will making 200%. :man1:

Ideally, we could trade Pau for Love, and although that might take things out of consideration of the 2014-15 plan, we'd still have some breathing room. Dwight, Love, Nash would be a fine core to build around.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Out gunned in OKC (30-31)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:38 pm

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Sure, injuries don't help the matter, but I just do not see how having a healthy Pau Gasol and Jordan Hill would have changed the dynamics of this game.

That is hilarious.


Ahhh, the old blame game thing. Fun times. It's that one where we'd win every game we lose if that one guy who was hurt was playing (or playing at 100%).

That's a fun game because we NEVER lose!
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