WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

rape in Den, sounds familiar

Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

JGC, Roos, I agree that the refs didn't COST US the game, but they definitely were bad from the start, and they definitely hurt us. Do we win with fair officiating? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about obviously bad officiating.
I thought it was bad all around, Denver got some bad calls too against them, but it definitely felt like it hurt us the most.

khmrP wrote:rape in Den, sounds familiar

so wrong

Finwë wrote:Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

Back 2 back game ... old team , starters playing too many minutes for a while , altitude ... I don't think it was an effort pb

JGC wrote:Refs had nothing to do with the loss against the Nuggets. They were the more aggressive team and the whistle will always benefit the more aggressive team. They had what, 20 points in the paint in the first quarter alone?

We took way too many jumpers, didn't go inside at all. This team's propensity to fail in capitalizing on our inside advantage is just... frightening.

Our offense was actually fine. Our D killed us.
Also, with Pau playing pretty poorly this season and being unprecedentally (by his standards) ineffective on the block, and Howard not being athletically 100% or really a very effective post up player (plus bricking FTs), I'm not sure posting them up is such a big advantage anymore.. Maybe run a few plays to get them looks close to the basket, but ISO on the block for either of them? No thanks..

Finwë wrote:Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

JGC, Roos, I agree that the refs didn't COST US the game, but they definitely were bad from the start, and they definitely hurt us. Do we win with fair officiating? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about obviously bad officiating.
I thought it was bad all around, Denver got some bad calls too against them, but it definitely felt like it hurt us the most.

Over a season the officiating evens out IMO.... I'm in no way a "conspiracy theorist" or a "Stern Hates us" sky is falling guy.... a quick glance at the differentials shows we shoot 8.2 free throws more than our competition..... or about 2 more than the next closes team which is Houston. We average nearly 30 free throws a game.... or about 8 more than Miami and 2 more than OKC.... the two teams that most think get more favorable treatment than we do....

I'm a firm believer that you make your breaks in a game.... we didn't tonight and I don't think the refs had anything to do with the outcome of this game.... our pathetic defense and putting our great Bigs in poor positions or not getting them the ball was the culprit along with effort and playing as a team....

wcsoldier81 wrote:

Finwë wrote:Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

Back 2 back game ... old team , starters playing too many minutes for a while , altitude ... I don't think it was an effort pb

Disagree.. Those are reasons why effort level may have been affected but do not excuse it IMO.. Not if you are trying to be a contender and every game is more precious because of your lousy start.
Howard looked completely desinterested from the start. Gasol was probably gassed, but he was just too terrible. Kobe, Nash and Meeks were blown by easily. MWP played dumb. Guys didn't rotate, didn't rebound.. Can't win like that.
If there's something you're doing or not doing that you know will prevent you from winning, then it's presence is never excusable. Not if you want to compete.

This was probably the worst defensive outing of the year. At this point of the season, considering our record, that's inexcusable, even if they were tired. You can rest plenty after the game.

Rooscooter wrote:

Finwë wrote:Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

JGC, Roos, I agree that the refs didn't COST US the game, but they definitely were bad from the start, and they definitely hurt us. Do we win with fair officiating? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about obviously bad officiating.
I thought it was bad all around, Denver got some bad calls too against them, but it definitely felt like it hurt us the most.

Over a season the officiating evens out IMO.... I'm in no way a "conspiracy theorist" or a "Stern Hates us" sky is falling guy.... a quick glance at the differentials shows we shoot 8.2 free throws more than our competition..... or about 2 more than the next closes team which is Houston. We average nearly 30 free throws a game.... or about 8 more than Miami and 2 more than OKC.... the two teams that most think get more favorable treatment than we do....

I'm a firm believer that you make your breaks in a game.... we didn't tonight and I don't think the refs had anything to do with the outcome of this game.... our pathetic defense and putting our great Bigs in poor positions or not getting them the ball was the culprit along with effort and playing as a team....

Let me ask you this, during and after watching the game, did you feel the officiating was fair?
If not, IMO it's perfectly understandable to complain. Even if it wasn't the reason we lost. Games should not be called this poorly.

Regarding our FTs this season.. Howard is leading the league at that and many here believe the refs hurt him with a few unfair no-calls every game. I watch every game and agree. Opponents just hack him because they know he can't really make FTs.
That alone helps our FT total, but also it puts us in the "bonus" more frequently. Even if we don't post up nearly us much, we still take a lot of points in the paint, were a lot of fouls occur, so that helps too. Kobe's been particulary agressive this season trying to get to the line, and he's shooting many FTs. Even so, most of us watching games still think he's robbed a couple of times each game (particulary that game against the warriors). For example on his drive to end the 1st quarter (or was it the 2nd?). That happens to him more than to any other "superstar" in the league, trust me, I watch too much basketball. No calls on drives are notoriously more frequent for Kobe.

I'm not saying we're being robbed by refs every game, but we've had some games with just terrible officiating and most of it hurting us. The Warriors game just a couple of days ago is a fine example. Tonight's game as well.. That hasn't happened nearly as much to any other "contender", not the Clippers, not the Heat, not the Thunder, not the Spurs, not the Knicks (game against Chicago was the only time IMO)...

Our record is NOT due to officiating, 95% of our struggles have been exclusively interior. But there has been baaad officiating that hurt us in relatively several, and I don't mind people complaining about it.

its our defense that was the problem tonight. i really dont think ever it'll be our offense. we give up that many points were prob not gunna win though...many teams can say that too.

pnr d was beyond embarrassing. dwight was tired or something bc he didnt make any effort there. transition d was bad too. silly turnovers and also not running back. inbounding the ball they just threw it down the court and got a wide open look.

that said we also didnt get any calls while they did for everything so i think if we got the calls then we prob still would have won even without dwight.

really hate the officiating for us. its so biased and blatantly against us every night.

Finwe :
Rotations ( which are usually not good, tonight it was worse) rebounding ... it demands energy. Denver is a young and athletic team , we're old and slow

I think only Kobe and Metta have currently the stamina to play heavy minutes in back 2 back ... Nash, Pau and current D12 have not .

I think the team is still on the right track , I wouldn't put too much weight on this loss

every team likes to get their season high in points against us

this team needs to be vocal on defense, more communication. being vocal helps guys increase their energy and focus.

horrendous rotations

you'd think dan tony would play jamison and give the others a rest on a back to back but of course not! just another decision which proves how badly they messed up by hiring this idiot. defense just flat out pathetic and embarassing

WMC:
Farid out hustling Gasol/Howard and Brewer having a career night.

Finwë wrote:

JGC wrote:Refs had nothing to do with the loss against the Nuggets. They were the more aggressive team and the whistle will always benefit the more aggressive team. They had what, 20 points in the paint in the first quarter alone?

We took way too many jumpers, didn't go inside at all. This team's propensity to fail in capitalizing on our inside advantage is just... frightening.

Our offense was actually fine. Our D killed us.
Also, with Pau playing pretty poorly this season and being unprecedentally (by his standards) ineffective on the block, and Howard not being athletically 100% or really a very effective post up player (plus bricking FTs), I'm not sure posting them up is such a big advantage anymore.. Maybe run a few plays to get them looks close to the basket, but ISO on the block for either of them? No thanks..

Yeah I didn't think our offense was fine. Felt we took way too many 3s and long jumpers. We put up a lot of points but I didn't like the way were doing things on the offensive end. I firmly believe this team is an offensive minded team who will be inspired to play defense when things are clicking offensively. Like, in the Knicks game we didn't put up as many points but I felt like our offense actually 'felt' better.

I'm not necessarily talking about having D12 post up as you said. His post game is horrendous and difficult to watch. I'm talking about getting these guys some easy looks the way that Denver was able to against us. I mean, they got Koufos as many looks as Dwight in substantially less time.

I think that's what I find most frustrating about this team. Other teams have 'less' than we do and seem to find ways to get 'more'. In other words, we play most nights like a collection of talented individuals, whereas many of the teams we play against are playing at a level that is higher than the sum of their parts.

Finwë wrote:Let me ask you this, during and after watching the game, did you feel the officiating was fair?
If not, IMO it's perfectly understandable to complain. Even if it wasn't the reason we lost. Games should not be called this poorly.

The calls went against us tonight for the most part but they usually go in favor of the aggressive team AND the home teams in this league. If we matched their effort and intensity we most likely win..... and we probably get a few more calls in the process.

The worst call in the game went in our favor anyway...... the "carry" call on Miller was bunk if you compare it to what Nash did a few minutes later.....

what'd we give up in the first half? 57? to think, if we would have held them to another 57 in the 2nd half, we would be in overtime right now!

Finwë wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:

Finwë wrote:Effort on the defensive end. From the start just gave Denver whatever they wanted and then some. Slow or inexistant rotations, no rebounding, not going after 50/50 balls, dumb fouls, just TERRIBLE defensive outing. Maybe the worst of the year, and that's saying something.

JGC, Roos, I agree that the refs didn't COST US the game, but they definitely were bad from the start, and they definitely hurt us. Do we win with fair officiating? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about obviously bad officiating.
I thought it was bad all around, Denver got some bad calls too against them, but it definitely felt like it hurt us the most.

Over a season the officiating evens out IMO.... I'm in no way a "conspiracy theorist" or a "Stern Hates us" sky is falling guy.... a quick glance at the differentials shows we shoot 8.2 free throws more than our competition..... or about 2 more than the next closes team which is Houston. We average nearly 30 free throws a game.... or about 8 more than Miami and 2 more than OKC.... the two teams that most think get more favorable treatment than we do....

I'm a firm believer that you make your breaks in a game.... we didn't tonight and I don't think the refs had anything to do with the outcome of this game.... our pathetic defense and putting our great Bigs in poor positions or not getting them the ball was the culprit along with effort and playing as a team....

Let me ask you this, during and after watching the game, did you feel the officiating was fair?
If not, IMO it's perfectly understandable to complain. Even if it wasn't the reason we lost. Games should not be called this poorly.

Regarding our FTs this season.. Howard is leading the league at that and many here believe the refs hurt him with a few unfair no-calls every game. I watch every game and agree. Opponents just hack him because they know he can't really make FTs.
That alone helps our FT total, but also it puts us in the "bonus" more frequently. Even if we don't post up nearly us much, we still take a lot of points in the paint, were a lot of fouls occur, so that helps too. Kobe's been particulary agressive this season trying to get to the line, and he's shooting many FTs. Even so, most of us watching games still think he's robbed a couple of times each game (particulary that game against the warriors). For example on his drive to end the 1st quarter (or was it the 2nd?). That happens to him more than to any other "superstar" in the league, trust me, I watch too much basketball. No calls on drives are notoriously more frequent for Kobe.

I'm not saying we're being robbed by refs every game, but we've had some games with just terrible officiating and most of it hurting us. The Warriors game just a couple of days ago is a fine example. Tonight's game as well.. That hasn't happened nearly as much to any other "contender", not the Clippers, not the Heat, not the Thunder, not the Spurs, not the Knicks (game against Chicago was the only time IMO)...

Our record is NOT due to officiating, 95% of our struggles have been exclusively interior. But there has been baaad officiating that hurt us in relatively several, and I don't mind people complaining about it.

Finwe, I know you probably watch a lot of other non-Laker games. When you do, do you see great officiating on most nights? Because I don't. I see bad officiating in almost every game I have ever seen.

You might not think this has happened to any other contender, but the fans of those teams do. And if you ask them whether they think the Lakers have gotten the wrong end of the ref stick, they will tell you not more so than any other team I'm sure.

The bottom line is sure, complain about the officiating, there were moments where it was bad. People can complain about Kobe going hero ball even though it only really happened it short spurts. Or, we can bag on a single substitution or two and whine about substitution patterns. But in the end, if it didn't have an impact on the outcome of the game, then what's the point? It's not like it was so egregious that it prevented us from being able to compete. Plus, it was a Denver home game, and they were more aggressive from the tip (so no trying to say they were aggressive because the refs didn't allow us to defend).

Offensive rebounds...Pau/Dwight just let them have everything.

JGC wrote:

Finwë wrote:

JGC wrote:Refs had nothing to do with the loss against the Nuggets. They were the more aggressive team and the whistle will always benefit the more aggressive team. They had what, 20 points in the paint in the first quarter alone?

We took way too many jumpers, didn't go inside at all. This team's propensity to fail in capitalizing on our inside advantage is just... frightening.

Our offense was actually fine. Our D killed us.
Also, with Pau playing pretty poorly this season and being unprecedentally (by his standards) ineffective on the block, and Howard not being athletically 100% or really a very effective post up player (plus bricking FTs), I'm not sure posting them up is such a big advantage anymore.. Maybe run a few plays to get them looks close to the basket, but ISO on the block for either of them? No thanks..

Yeah I didn't think our offense was fine. Felt we took way too many 3s and long jumpers. We put up a lot of points but I didn't like the way were doing things on the offensive end. I firmly believe this team is an offensive minded team who will be inspired to play defense when things are clicking offensively. Like, in the Knicks game we didn't put up as many points but I felt like our offense actually 'felt' better.

I'm not necessarily talking about having D12 post up as you said. His post game is horrendous and difficult to watch. I'm talking about getting these guys some easy looks the way that Denver was able to against us. I mean, they got Koufos as many looks as Dwight in substantially less time.

I think that's what I find most frustrating about this team. Other teams have 'less' than we do and seem to find ways to get 'more'. In other words, we play most nights like a collection of talented individuals, whereas many of the teams we play against are playing at a level that is higher than the sum of their parts.

Most of the easy looks Denver got against us were completely our fault. They ran pick and roll, just like we did, but we didn't defend it AT ALL, so they got easy looks. They also completely outhustled our bigs and got a lot of shots near the basket thanks to offensive rebounds.
They don't call plays for Faried, yet he puts up points because he fights for rebounds. That's a GREAT way to get easy/good looks. Howard should know that by now.

We ARE trying to get the bigs easy looks. He are running a lot of P&R with either or both (horns) all the time hoping to get them the ball in a good spot. Good teams find ways to take that away, so Nash looks somewhere else. We do have some fast triggers in our roster (MWP, Meeks, Kobe at times), and we do take many 3s, but overall we've been shooting them very well (I think we're 7th in the league). MWP and Meeks were notoriously cold tonight, they took the same type of shots they've been taking, just missed them.

I felt the offense was run pretty smoothly, we did score a lot of points and shot a decent % from the field. Nash was great at orchestrating it (except for very few stretches). I do concede that when we had a unit of Duhon-Kobe-Meeks-MWP-Hill the offense looked atrocious, but that's kinda expected, no guys capable of creating their own shots other than Kobe in that offense..

Pig Miller wrote:what'd we give up in the first half? 57? to think, if we would have held them to another 57 in the 2nd half, we would be in overtime right now!

Touche.
Just sad.

Rooscooter wrote:

Finwë wrote:Let me ask you this, during and after watching the game, did you feel the officiating was fair?
If not, IMO it's perfectly understandable to complain. Even if it wasn't the reason we lost. Games should not be called this poorly.

The calls went against us tonight for the most part but they usually go in favor of the aggressive team AND the home teams in this league. If we matched their effort and intensity we most likely win..... and we probably get a few more calls in the process.

The worst call in the game went in our favor anyway...... the "carry" call on Miller was bunk if you compare it to what Nash did a few minutes later.....

I completely agree about intensity and agressiveness. Just saying referees should have been better.

Yeah, but that's still only 1 call. How many touch fouls did the refs give Denver? Was it similar when our guys were driving? Nah.

JGC wrote:
Finwe, I know you probably watch a lot of other non-Laker games. When you do, do you see great officiating on most nights? Because I don't. I see bad officiating in almost every game I have ever seen.

You might not think this has happened to any other contender, but the fans of those teams do. And if you ask them whether they think the Lakers have gotten the wrong end of the ref stick, they will tell you not more so than any other team I'm sure.

The bottom line is sure, complain about the officiating, there were moments where it was bad. People can complain about Kobe going hero ball even though it only really happened it short spurts. Or, we can bag on a single substitution or two and whine about substitution patterns. But in the end, if it didn't have an impact on the outcome of the game, then what's the point? It's not like it was so egregious that it prevented us from being able to compete. Plus, it was a Denver home game, and they were more aggressive from the tip (so no trying to say they were aggressive because the refs didn't allow us to defend).

There is poor officiating in most games, sometimes notoriously so, but I do not think it happens to the teams I listed the same as it's happened to us so far (and to other teams that are lower in the standings).
It DID have an impact on the game. Maybe we don't win, but fair calls could've meant a much different game in many areas. I still think we lose because of our effort in the defensive end, but it's probably a much closer game if it's called correctly. And then who knows, maybe the fact that it's closer finally wakes up our guys and they try a little harder, maybe their players don't make as many shots because they have lesser momentum.. I don't know, all I'm saying is "let me find out what happens". Be fair, and let me find out.

I'm not one to blame refs, but seriously come on. horrible. that girl, faried, should have taken out of the game with foul trouble. I lost count of how many push offs she was getting away with. and btw she's a great actress. sure we got away with a couple of calls, but not nearly as much denver had. It was so obvious

over it. on to the next battle