WMC 12/13: Mercy kill. (0-4)

Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:27 pm

Yes, time and injuries have been an issue. But you're telling me this team with

Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard
Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Ron Artest
Antawn Jamison
Earl Clark

Should have been 8 games under .500 at one point? Injuries do and have mattered, but are no excuse for us being this poor. We've had Dwight Howard and Kobe the entire season. There is no legitimate excuse for playing this poorly.

Other reasons are personnel and coaching. Add injury to the mix and you can understand why we're here. Thank god we dumped MDA's offense and are running whatever the hell we are now. Or we wouldn't even be this good. We are truly missing a team that can get out in transition and run and back in transition, make no mistake.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:50 pm

Our transition defense is just bad. It looked better last night because we were facing an inferior team. My fear is when we play the Hawks & OKC it will be exploited, again. We just don't have the team speed to get back.

Either way, we can combat that by not turning the ball over & controlling tempo; if we do that, we give ourselves a good chance...
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby The Rock on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:54 pm

You dont think chemistry and time together matters, look at the 2004 Team USA squad that has Duncan, Marion, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Iverson...loaded talented squad didnt capture gold. Heck we had a squad just like that in 06 World Championships that had Dwight, CP3 and Bosh along with those guys and still didnt get gold. Just saying you cant just put ton of talent on the court without giving them ample time to work it out
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby karacha on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:56 pm

dwighthowardsdad wrote:Our transition defense is just bad. It looked better last night because we were facing an inferior team. My fear is when we play the Hawks & OKC it will be exploited, again. We just don't have the team speed to get back.

Either way, we can combat that by not turning the ball over & controlling tempo; if we do that, we give ourselves a good chance...


That's the key, right there. Especially the turnovers.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby The Rock on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:59 pm

we've always had TO issues and poor transition defense, guys like Aaron Brooks in 09 and Westbrook in 2010 took full advantage of that. Heck even the Phoenix Series in 2010 went 6 games because of that. We always had these following things to cover up those weaknesses...rebounded better (especially on offense), hit our free throws, Kobe's heroics and great 3 point shooting from Kobe being double teamed
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby karacha on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:07 pm

^

True, we've always had issues with that. But now it's even worse, because we're older and the league is even more athletic in general. Our bigs have been hurt (rebounding), and Kobe is still incredible, but he's probably not as good as he used to be few years ago (heroics).
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby The Rock on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:13 pm

^ and we still have most of the pieces required for that formula we used in 09/10. Hopefully Pau returns healthy (helps with O-REB & FTs) and Clark/Meeks/MWP can start hitting some big time 3s, those guys compete hard though so I believe in them. Im just a little worried about free throws hopefully Dwight doesnt mind being ignored on offense lol rather see the ball most of the time in Nash/Kobe's hands rest of the way.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:36 pm

The Rock wrote:You dont think chemistry and time together matters, look at the 2004 Team USA squad that has Duncan, Marion, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Iverson...loaded talented squad didnt capture gold. Heck we had a squad just like that in 06 World Championships that had Dwight, CP3 and Bosh along with those guys and still didnt get gold. Just saying you cant just put ton of talent on the court without giving them ample time to work it out


Yeah and if we were in contention for the gold, and didn't quite make it, that's one thing.

We're on the brinking of being disqualified. That didn't happen to the teams you mentioned.

I think everyone understands it takes time to be ELITE. We should ALL have known that coming in. With a star-studded team, you shouldn't need time to win more games than you lose though.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:31 pm

Exactly, this team has also played nearly 60 games together....they don't even play half that in the Olympics.

Sure talent doesn't equal instant success, but you can't say solely injuries to Nash and Pau caused us to be 8 games under .500 at one time.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby karacha on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:35 pm

JGC wrote:With a star-studded team, you shouldn't need time to win more games than you lose though.


We've had injuries, and it's hard to build a team, when some of the main players are constantly missing. Nash, Pau, Hill, Dwight. Those are all important players, not to mention the coaching change etc. Anyway, we'll have more wins then losses at the end of the season. No worries.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:46 pm

karacha wrote:
JGC wrote:With a star-studded team, you shouldn't need time to win more games than you lose though.


We've had injuries, and it's hard to build a team, when some of the main players are constantly missing. Nash, Pau, Hill, Dwight. Those are all important players, not to mention the coaching change etc. Anyway, we'll have more wins then losses at the end of the season. No worries.

there isn't any point Karacha. To some it shouldn't matter if we had a starting 5 of Morris, Duhon, Ebanks, Sacre and Kobe. That team should win because injuries don't matter.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:59 pm

Simple question, should a team with Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Ron Artest, Earl Clark, Antawn Jamison, and Meeks have been 8 games under .500?

Not to mention with intermittent appearances from Nash & Pau. We are 17-16 since Nash's return, although Pau/Dwight were missing during that stretch. So yes, injuries do matter, but ask yourself the question above.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:48 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
karacha wrote:
JGC wrote:With a star-studded team, you shouldn't need time to win more games than you lose though.


We've had injuries, and it's hard to build a team, when some of the main players are constantly missing. Nash, Pau, Hill, Dwight. Those are all important players, not to mention the coaching change etc. Anyway, we'll have more wins then losses at the end of the season. No worries.

there isn't any point Karacha. To some it shouldn't matter if we had a starting 5 of Morris, Duhon, Ebanks, Sacre and Kobe. That team should win because injuries don't matter.


No, injuries DO matter. They just don't matter as much to our record as some think they do.

I mean, some think that a starting 5 of Nash, Kobe, MWP, Clark/Pau, Dwight can't go .500 because Blake hurt his tummy!

Kobe and Dwight have played 89% of all games this season together. If that dynamic duo alone cannot win more games than they lose because they didn't have Steve Nash and Pau Gasol around them often enough due to injuries, then the injuries aren't THE problem.

The injuries only matter in so far as it's a primary reason we're not in the playoffs. But they have little to do with why we're not one of the best 3 teams in the NBA as we should have been.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JLaker17 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:10 pm

Its really hard to judge this team, considering how little time they've been together and the fact the whole team has been killed by injuries. One thing that won't change with health and time is Denver being a horrible match up for us.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:33 pm

JGC wrote:
No, injuries DO matter. They just don't matter as much to our record as some think they do.

I mean, some think that a starting 5 of Nash, Kobe, MWP, Clark/Pau, Dwight can't go .500 because Blake hurt his tummy!

Kobe and Dwight have played 89% of all games this season together. If that dynamic duo alone cannot win more games than they lose because they didn't have Steve Nash and Pau Gasol around them often enough due to injuries, then the injuries aren't THE problem.

The injuries only matter in so far as it's a primary reason we're not in the playoffs. But they have little to do with why we're not one of the best 3 teams in the NBA as we should have been.

Ah you back at your usual just talking again.

1. Blake hurting his tummy at the same time Nash was already hurt took our 3rd string PG and made him a starter. I know you you forget that little tidbit but hey as long as you can play like you are the smartest kid in your room that is all that matter.

2.Kobe and Dwight have played. Yet, Dwight is playing through not one but two injuries but again why is that important. Dwight is finally playing like he isn't hurting and we have turned it around.

3. Again, you have your opinion that injuries are an excuse. Congrats to you. I disagree. Maybe, you can finally understand that your point is not mine. The injuries are the reason we haven't been able to play into a cohessive unit and thusly play to our potential which should be tops in the west.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:01 am

Dwight not being 100% has hurt this team a lot. I don't understand how the FO mismanaged this problem so badly this year. They knew that Dwight wouldn't be even at 70 - 80%, and yet they did nothing to fix a) the underachieving/injured Pau problem, and b) the replacement of Hill after the hip injury. They got lucky with the emergence of Clark, but for the most part they let this front court fester in mediocrity all season.

To some degree they did it with Nash too. He's been healing from that nasty fracture all season, which has clearly impeded his play (just compare last season's speed to this season's), and Blake was out with his injury, and they let scrubs fill in. And then Kobe took it upon himself to be facilitator, which hopefully won't bite us in the butt down the road this season, if/when he starts wearing down from overuse.

We've had too many injuries this season to overcome, and if you think about it, NOTHING has been done all year to help with the deficiencies. That's why we're battling at .500.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:19 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:
No, injuries DO matter. They just don't matter as much to our record as some think they do.

I mean, some think that a starting 5 of Nash, Kobe, MWP, Clark/Pau, Dwight can't go .500 because Blake hurt his tummy!

Kobe and Dwight have played 89% of all games this season together. If that dynamic duo alone cannot win more games than they lose because they didn't have Steve Nash and Pau Gasol around them often enough due to injuries, then the injuries aren't THE problem.

The injuries only matter in so far as it's a primary reason we're not in the playoffs. But they have little to do with why we're not one of the best 3 teams in the NBA as we should have been.

Ah you back at your usual just talking again.

1. Blake hurting his tummy at the same time Nash was already hurt took our 3rd string PG and made him a starter. I know you you forget that little tidbit but hey as long as you can play like you are the smartest kid in your room that is all that matter.

2.Kobe and Dwight have played. Yet, Dwight is playing through not one but two injuries but again why is that important. Dwight is finally playing like he isn't hurting and we have turned it around.

3. Again, you have your opinion that injuries are an excuse. Congrats to you. I disagree. Maybe, you can finally understand that your point is not mine. The injuries are the reason we haven't been able to play into a cohessive unit and thusly play to our potential which should be tops in the west.


Let's just get to the bottom of this instead of beating around the bush.

Is your assessment of this roster that, if healthy, it would be an elite team in the NBA? And by elite I mean, top 3?

If yes, then I can see why you would blame injuries. You have to understand that I do not share the perspective that this is an elite team that can only be slowed by injuries.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby kobebryant248 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:13 am

Chillbongo wrote:Exactly, this team has also played nearly 60 games together....they don't even play half that in the Olympics.

Sure talent doesn't equal instant success, but you can't say solely injuries to Nash and Pau caused us to be 8 games under .500 at one time.



no not true.nash was out for numerous games for example . he was out in the preseason as well for some games and then he missed the start of the season mostly if you know that he went out with an injury in the second half in just his second rs game with the lakers. d12 was out with some injuries, gasol out , hill out and steve blake missed many games. so to say they played so many games together is just flat out not right and not true.if you come up with arguments then please with arguments they are right and true. :bang:

by the way you can say that injuries played a big factor that lakers have a tough time this season. take away durant from okc or lebron from miami and you will see that these teams would mightly struggle :mad1:
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:20 am

kobebryant248 wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:Exactly, this team has also played nearly 60 games together....they don't even play half that in the Olympics.

Sure talent doesn't equal instant success, but you can't say solely injuries to Nash and Pau caused us to be 8 games under .500 at one time.



no not true.nash was out for numerous games for example . he was out in the preseason as well for some games and then he missed the start of the season mostly if you know that he went out with an injury in the second half in just his second rs game with the lakers. d12 was out with some injuries, gasol out , hill out and steve blake missed many games. so to say they played so many games together is just flat out not right and not true.if you come up with arguments then please with arguments they are right and true. :bang:

by the way you can say that injuries played a big factor that lakers have a tough time this season. take away durant from okc or lebron from miami and you will see that these teams would mightly struggle :mad1:


Injuries have played a big factor. But you can't possible believe they are why we're sub .500 through 72% of the season. I mean, if you believe that, then you have to think that Kobe is a shell of his former self.

Kobe led a team featuring Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to 45 wins and a playoff berth (both were new to the team and Kwame didn't start but half the season). You have to believe that having Dwight Howard 89% of the time you play, Nash & Howard about 60% of the time you play, would be better than having Kwame Brown and Smush Parker 100% of the time you play right?

Kobe is having a great year and he has new pieces, even with the injuries, that are better than the new pieces he had in 2005-2006 but he/we isn't having as much success now as he did then. I think it's because our pieces just don't fit that well ultimately.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby kobebryant248 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:39 am

JGC wrote:
kobebryant248 wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:Exactly, this team has also played nearly 60 games together....they don't even play half that in the Olympics.

Sure talent doesn't equal instant success, but you can't say solely injuries to Nash and Pau caused us to be 8 games under .500 at one time.



no not true.nash was out for numerous games for example . he was out in the preseason as well for some games and then he missed the start of the season mostly if you know that he went out with an injury in the second half in just his second rs game with the lakers. d12 was out with some injuries, gasol out , hill out and steve blake missed many games. so to say they played so many games together is just flat out not right and not true.if you come up with arguments then please with arguments they are right and true. :bang:

by the way you can say that injuries played a big factor that lakers have a tough time this season. take away durant from okc or lebron from miami and you will see that these teams would mightly struggle :mad1:


Injuries have played a big factor. But you can't possible believe they are why we're sub .500 through 72% of the season. I mean, if you believe that, then you have to think that Kobe is a shell of his former self.

Kobe led a team featuring Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to 45 wins and a playoff berth (both were new to the team and Kwame didn't start but half the season). You have to believe that having Dwight Howard 89% of the time you play, Nash & Howard about 60% of the time you play, would be better than having Kwame Brown and Smush Parker 100% of the time you play right?

Kobe is having a great year and he has new pieces, even with the injuries, that are better than the new pieces he had in 2005-2006 but he/we isn't having as much success now as he did then. I think it's because our pieces just don't fit that well ultimately.


i didn t said that the injuries are the main reason why lakers have a tough season so far but it s for sure a reason why lakers struggling .for example how could you build chemistry when everytime in this season importnant players are injured . or d12 isn t even close to 100 percent ,so lakers have many issues like defense espicially transistion defense but injuries are all so a big factor .
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:59 pm

JGC wrote:Let's just get to the bottom of this instead of beating around the bush.

Is your assessment of this roster that, if healthy, it would be an elite team in the NBA? And by elite I mean, top 3?

If yes, then I can see why you would blame injuries. You have to understand that I do not share the perspective that this is an elite team that can only be slowed by injuries.


There has not been any beating around the bush. I have stood with my opinion from the very start. It is you who have chosen to go around in circle for the sake of trying to sound superior to others. Yes, I believe this team as constructed would be elite by now had it not been for the injuries.

A team with DFisher, Kobe, Ron, Pau and Bynum won it all.
A team with Nash, Kobe, Ron, Pau and Dwight is equally as lethal. The 6th man? Lo before and Twan now.

I already know your view that this team is only good when Kobe shoots 14.5 times a game, has 13 assist and makes sure Dwight gets 24 touches a game. For you the team sucks as constructed, is too old to compete and is just plain not capable even if they had been healthy from the start. Again, I see your view. It isn't mine.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:06 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:Let's just get to the bottom of this instead of beating around the bush.

Is your assessment of this roster that, if healthy, it would be an elite team in the NBA? And by elite I mean, top 3?

If yes, then I can see why you would blame injuries. You have to understand that I do not share the perspective that this is an elite team that can only be slowed by injuries.


There has not been any beating around the bush. I have stood with my opinion from the very start. It is you who have chosen to go around in circle for the sake of trying to sound superior to others. Yes, I believe this team as constructed would be elite by now had it not been for the injuries.

A team with DFisher, Kobe, Ron, Pau and Bynum won it all.
A team with Nash, Kobe, Ron, Pau and Dwight is equally as lethal. The 6th man? Lo before and Twan now.

I already know your view that this team is only good when Kobe shoots 14.5 times a game, has 13 assist and makes sure Dwight gets 24 touches a game. For you the team sucks as constructed, is too old to compete and is just plain not capable even if they had been healthy from the start. Again, I see your view. It isn't mine.


Going around in circles? I've maintained the same argument throughout from the very beginning of (and even prior to) the regular season.

- You were the one that scoffed (as if your opinion were superior to others) at the thought of being a 4th seed whereas I said we need to be mindful of injuries and building chemistry. (Let me know if you want links, thanks).
- Scroll through the gameday threads. I read through them during games more than I post but you don't ever say anything about injuries. Lots of comments about chemistry and complaints about players or what they should be doing. Have you ever commented in the gameday thread, during a game we were losing, that the reason we were losing is because of injuries? I seriously doubt it and if you have, it's a rarity more than a common occurrence which is a little suspect since it's supposed to be the #1 reason for our struggles. But you talk a lot about chemistry! Hmmm. (You also hand out a ton of personal attacks and never seem to get called for it. Maybe a post count thing, I don't know). (Let me know if you want links though, thanks).
- Then you flip flop later and say without injuries we'd be a top 4 seed in the West even though just a few months ago you thought that idea was a complete joke. (Let me know if you want links, thanks).
- Now you're saying we'd be a top 3 team in the league without injuries. It just keeps getting better. Maybe in a few days, we'd have won the championship if it weren't for injuries and then it'll be that we'd be a dynasty next? Kidding, but come on, please don't accuse me of going around in circles. If anything, I'm too stubborn in my conclusions and don't waver enough.
- And now you're just bringing up stuff that has no relevance to the discussion (the first sign, folks), nor is there any truth to it. Kobe only shooting 14.5 times per game? When did I say that? Post a link please (as always, I doubt you will post one or admit I never said it). You know how I can be reasonably certain that I never said that? Because I maintain a consistent belief. It's not rocket science I can tell you that, heh.

I don't for a second question WHY you want to believe that the Lakers would be elite if not for injuries. I totally get it, honestly, I do. And I think the reason you provided is an acceptable one as well. I mean sure, if Fisher/Kobe/MWP/Pau/Bynum can do it, why can't Nash/Kobe/MWP/Pau/D12 right?

Well, Kobe, Smush and Kwame won 45 games. And that's with both Kwame and Smush being new to the team just like Howard and Nash. There is a great, great chance we will not get to 45 games. You can't possibly tell me that having Kwame 100% of the time (albeit in and out of the starting lineup) is better than having Dwight 89% of the time. You can't possibly tell me that having Smush 100% of the time is better than having Nash 60% of the time. Though, in a way, I guess you are telling me that. Kind of.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby King of Clutch on Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:37 pm

coaching, health, and chemistry are all reasons for our poor record. Not health alone. If we had a phil jackson coaching our team, we would've won a lot of the games we lost. On a lot of nights we just gave up leads we shouldn't have, and faltered late in the game. Chemistry is just tricky. So yes, I do agree that health is the MAIN reason for our record. But not the ONLY reason for our record. Lets stop thinking with the mindset of pinning it on one thing. Clearly there has been multiple setbacks with this team this year.
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby JGC on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 pm

King of Clutch wrote:coaching, health, and chemistry are all reasons for our poor record. Not health alone. If we had a phil jackson coaching our team, we would've won a lot of the games we lost. On a lot of nights we just gave up leads we shouldn't have, and faltered late in the game. Chemistry is just tricky. So yes, I do agree that health is the MAIN reason for our record. But not the ONLY reason for our record. Lets stop thinking with the mindset of pinning it on one thing. Clearly there has been multiple setbacks with this team this year.


You're right, it isn't just one thing. I think me, puffy, everyone agrees we have more than one problem. I mean, with chemistry and injuries we would be better. Likewise, with health and no chemistry we would be better too. To me though, the roster needs a lot of changes. I still believe that a team of Kobe and Dwight SHOULD be good enough to win most nights. Heck, just having Kobe should be enough to be at .500 IMO shouldn't it?
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Re: WMC 12/13: Bounced Back Beatdown (29-30)

Postby lakersin4 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:56 pm

JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:coaching, health, and chemistry are all reasons for our poor record. Not health alone. If we had a phil jackson coaching our team, we would've won a lot of the games we lost. On a lot of nights we just gave up leads we shouldn't have, and faltered late in the game. Chemistry is just tricky. So yes, I do agree that health is the MAIN reason for our record. But not the ONLY reason for our record. Lets stop thinking with the mindset of pinning it on one thing. Clearly there has been multiple setbacks with this team this year.


You're right, it isn't just one thing. I think me, puffy, everyone agrees we have more than one problem. I mean, with chemistry and injuries we would be better. Likewise, with health and no chemistry we would be better too. To me though, the roster needs a lot of changes. I still believe that a team of Kobe and Dwight SHOULD be good enough to win most nights. Heck, just having Kobe should be enough to be at .500 IMO shouldn't it?

I don't think we need that many changes. We need to swap Pau with a 2nd tier SF that plays both sides (Granger/Deng/Batum). We need a couple young athletic guards off the bench to replace Blake & Duhon. We need a solid backup C. The only major talent upgrade we need is the starting SF.
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