Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 12:12 pm

Jobu wrote:Luke Jackson was a consensus lottery pick on almost every draft board in 2004, so you can't really fault the Cavs for drafting him. Heck, some boards had him going as high as 7. He was a contender for the college player of the year his senior year and I think the Wooden award too, so there was a lot of excitement surrounding him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621
http://preps.scout.com/2/269725.html
http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2004mock.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/specials/draft/2004/06/15/mock.draft.1/index.html


They really didn't have many high draft picks the past 7 years and there's been significant turnover at the front office now, so I don't think you can really use the past as a barometer either. There's a new GM, new coach, new scouts, etc.


hindsight is 20-20. thats what i'm using.

i could go on and on about how kwame brown was a consensus and i would have done it. but sometimes, you have to put your foot down and say, F IT we, blew it. and we blew it with luke jackson, big time.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Center Court on Sun May 29, 2011 12:42 pm

look at Williams body of work this past season....Dude has earned the second pick

Hickson
Williams
Irving

not bad
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 pm

eNlight wrote:hindsight is 20-20. thats what i'm using.

i could go on and on about how kwame brown was a consensus and i would have done it. but sometimes, you have to put your foot down and say, F IT we, blew it. and we blew it with luke jackson, big time.


Hindsight is a nice thing, but I still don't think it's fair to say they "blew it...big time." They drafted a guy, that everyone else also thought, was going to be good but turned up out opposite.

Blowing it would have been drafting AJ Nobody from Central Wyoming University College of Farming or really reaching on a guy who was slotted in the mid to late teens, etc.

I think you can easily differentiate between "blowing it" and just missing on a pick. The Cavs missed with Jackson. That's what happens in the draft though. Some guys (heck, most guys) look great in college but just don't pan out in the pros.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 1:58 pm

Hindsight is a nice thing, but I still don't think it's fair to say they "blew it...big time." They drafted a guy, that everyone else also thought, was going to be good but turned up out opposite.


not everyone thought he would be good. general consensus is not "everyone". they didn't blow it "big time", but it does show ferry's stupidity and lack of drafting skills. they didn't blow it "big time" because they got the number 1 pick the previous year and secured lebron james.

Blowing it would have been drafting AJ Nobody from Central Wyoming University College of Farming or really reaching on a guy who was slotted in the mid to late teens, etc.


didn't they draft an AJ nobody ? what has luke jackson turned out to become? i understand he was "supposed to go 7 or top 5", but thats a week argument. just because talent evaluators had him going so and so, doesn't justify that he's a somebody as opposed to a nobody going 15 or higher. gerald greene was supposed to be a top 5 pick, but celtics got him at number 18.

I think you can easily differentiate between "blowing it" and just missing on a pick. The Cavs missed with Jackson. That's what happens in the draft though. Some guys (heck, most guys) look great in college but just don't pan out in the pros.


i will go out and say this, when you see a player look like luke jackson, adam morrison, tyler hasborough, and gordon hayward, jj reddick, it screams HEY SUCCESSFUL COLLEGE WHITE BOY CAREER! not necessarily translates!

TH, GH, JJR have decent careers, but not what the general consensus "labels" them to be.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 6:54 pm

eNlight wrote:not everyone thought he would be good. general consensus is not "everyone". they didn't blow it "big time", but it does show ferry's stupidity and lack of drafting skills. they didn't blow it "big time" because they got the number 1 pick the previous year and secured lebron james.


Ok, you're just picking at semantics now. Everyone is a figure of speech, you don't need to nitpick it. He was in the top 10 of almost every reputable draft board for a reason. I already posted them, but you can continue to look at draft boards prior to the 2004 draft.

Also, Danny Ferry wasn't the GM of the Cleveland Cavaliers until 2005. He had nothing to do with drafting Luke Jackson. Maybe you should do a little research first before calling someone out :man1:


didn't they draft an AJ nobody ? what has luke jackson turned out to become? i understand he was "supposed to go 7 or top 5", but thats a week argument. just because talent evaluators had him going so and so, doesn't justify that he's a somebody as opposed to a nobody going 15 or higher. gerald greene was supposed to be a top 5 pick, but celtics got him at number 18.


No, they didn't draft AJ Nobody. He was a well-respected collegiate athlete who was in the running for college player of the year. A "nobody" is someone who isn't even in the discussion to be drafted in the lottery, or heck, even the first round. I'm not sure how you can label a guy who had a shoot at winning the Wooden Award and CPOY as a "nobody". His play as a college player justified his position on the board. Talent evaluators didn't put him in the top 10 because they liked his haircut, they put him there because they thought he was top 10 talent.

Keeping with the Cavs, Christian Eyenga was a "nobody". Hardly anyone had even heard his name before David Stern stuttered through it and he was on *maybe* a few draft boards that night. Granted Eyenga was taken 30th, no one expected him to go in the 1st round, let alone the 2nd.


i will go out and say this, when you see a player look like luke jackson, adam morrison, tyler hasborough, and gordon hayward, jj reddick, it screams HEY SUCCESSFUL COLLEGE WHITE BOY CAREER! not necessarily translates!
[/quote]

Ok. I'm not sure what race has to do with it - maybe you have an issue with white players? There are players of every race that have good college careers that don't translate to the NBA.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 6:57 pm

LOL, the nba is about race, why was luke jackson regarded as the next larry bird? same with morrison. why can't they be the next ray allen?
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 7:00 pm

I'm not sure what player comparisons has to do with this discussion.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 7:06 pm

No, they didn't draft AJ Nobody. He was a well-respected collegiate athlete who was in the running for college player of the year. A "nobody" is someone who isn't even in the discussion to be drafted in the lottery, or heck, even the first round. I'm not sure how you can label a guy who had a shoot at winning the Wooden Award and CPOY as a "nobody". His play as a college player justified his position on the board. Talent evaluators didn't put him in the top 10 because they liked his haircut, they put him there because they thought he was top 10 talent.


i can respect this argument. but what i tried to say through pun/joke, is that white players with distinguished honors generally don't transition into the nba very well. take it as how it is, i'm not here being a racist, but more as a simplifier and trend setter.

Keeping with the Cavs, Christian Eyenga was a "nobody". Hardly anyone had even heard his name before David Stern stuttered through it and he was on *maybe* a few draft boards that night. Granted Eyenga was taken 30th, no one expected him to go in the 1st round, let alone the 2nd.


and how has that worked out? :man10: christian eyenga to the rescue! :jam2:
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Helljumper on Sun May 29, 2011 7:08 pm

This Jobu guy HAS to be someone in Cavs' management to randomly and so vehemently defend the Cavs' horrible decisions with his first posts. :man10:
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 7:10 pm

and how has that worked out? :man10: christian eyenga to the rescue! :jam2:


He's only played one NBA season, and at a very limited role at that. You can't really judge a player until 2-3 years of solid playing. I think the Cavs drafted him as a "project" player -- extremely athletic, but not a lot of refined skills. They're hoping working with NBA coaches and other players will help turn that raw athleticism into NBA talent. It could work, or it couldn't.

Also, I'd have to look it up, but I remember reading that $$$ played a role as well. The Cavs had a bloated payroll so it benefited them to draft a player who was going to stay overseas and play for another year or so, which is what Eyenga did.

And again, he was drafted 30th, not 10th. I'd rather see a team gamble late in the round than early.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 7:14 pm

Helljumper wrote:This Jobu guy HAS to be someone in Cavs' management to randomly and so vehemently defend the Cavs' horrible decisions with his first posts. :man10:



Yep, it was a horrible decision to draft a guy that was slotted to go in the top 10 *rolls eyes*

Hindsight is fun, but you have to take it with a grain of salt sometimes.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 7:16 pm

Helljumper wrote:This Jobu guy HAS to be someone in Cavs' management to randomly and so vehemently defend the Cavs' horrible decisions with his first posts. :man10:



:man10:
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 7:18 pm

Jobu wrote:
Helljumper wrote:This Jobu guy HAS to be someone in Cavs' management to randomly and so vehemently defend the Cavs' horrible decisions with his first posts. :man10:



Yep, it was a horrible decision to draft a guy that was slotted to go in the top 10 *rolls eyes*

Hindsight is fun, but you have to take it with a grain of salt sometimes.


it was a HORRIBLE decision. he wasn't supposed to go 10, he was SUPPOSED to go 30. thats what their FO was getting paid to do, not listen to some college hoops analyst and not listen to some small town basketball executives. they were supposed to be wizards at drafting, and they messed up.

everyone messes up, but luke jackson was horrible, and the cavs are able to dodge a bullet there because they had the 1st pick the year before and no one even knows whom LJ is. they know LBJ, but not LJ.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 7:21 pm

LOL what? Luke Jackson was supposed to go 30? Funny, I didn't see that anywhere. eNlighten us, won't you?

This should be funny.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby LAKEROC on Sun May 29, 2011 7:22 pm

I am usually very good with my draft predictions of players. I have made many right calls over the years, but the one player I admit to screwing up on and I would have probably drafted is Kwame Brown. His talent level was incredible, and he reminded me of KG in many ways in high school. I also watched interviews with him, and figured this guy seemed very mature for his age, and seemed like he got it. I appreciated his thoughtful answers, and I also like how the guy was in top shape physically, with only 6% body fat. I thought, people don't look like that, who aren't working hard. I was a tremendous fan of his at Glynn Academy, and from what I saw at the ABCD camp. I thought he was a can't miss prospect. I will admit, I screwed up on that one big time.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Sun May 29, 2011 7:26 pm

That's what the draft is though - hits and misses. You can't win them all and it's a gamble. Some guys look great in college and just don't pan out, but there's no way to know that on draft night. You spin the wheel and hope you made the right decision.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Sun May 29, 2011 8:03 pm

Jobu wrote:LOL what? Luke Jackson was supposed to go 30? Funny, I didn't see that anywhere. eNlighten us, won't you?

This should be funny.


whats so funny? he was supposed to go 30, instead, the cavs picked him up at 10. i'm talking about actuality, not speculation wise on the board. FO don't go by general consensus and what nbadraft.net tells them to do. i understand you can't understand this, and that general consensus is general consensus. if anything, general consensus is used for strategy and smokescreens.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby LAKEROC on Mon May 30, 2011 11:14 am

Cleveland, if they do this, should go Kyrie Irving and Enes Kanter. Put Kanter at the 4, Irving at point. You will also have Varajao who can play the 5, or the 4. Odds are, they will still make the lottery next year. Use next year's pick on Harrison Barnes( Irving's best friend). Barnes is a high quality kid, who I think will be president of the players association one day...just watch. It would be wonderful to get Austin Rivers as well in that draft. Use JJ Hickson's expiring at the deadline to get a high draft pick. Use that one on Austin Rivers.

Irving, Rivers, Barnes, Kanter, Varajao- That is an excellent starting 5.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby SmoothOperator on Mon May 30, 2011 4:20 pm

So right now, who's the better pick at #2 to build around a franchise? Like I said in a earlier post, I don't watch much college ball so this question is for my own enlightenment...

Disregarding a team's "Need", who would be the better overall pick based on talent and intangibles? Kanter or Williams?
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby JSM on Mon May 30, 2011 5:06 pm

^ Best two players in this draft are Irving and Williams, in that order. There's a drop off in terms of talent after that. Fit, maybe another story.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Jobu on Mon May 30, 2011 8:14 pm

eNlight wrote:whats so funny? he was supposed to go 30, instead, the cavs picked him up at 10. i'm talking about actuality, not speculation wise on the board. FO don't go by general consensus and what nbadraft.net tells them to do. i understand you can't understand this, and that general consensus is general consensus. if anything, general consensus is used for strategy and smokescreens.



Man, that's a whole lot of words to pretty much say nothing. Again, hindsight is a nice thing to have, but sometimes you need to set it aside. I understand you can't understand this. With the information that was available in June 2004 Luke Jackson wen't right about where he should have. He wasn't a "nobody", he wasn't a surprise, etc.

And who said the front office was paying attention to draft boards from journalists? They do their own due diligence - you know, because it's their jobs. Just like it's the jobs of NBA journalists to put together their own draft boards. Jackson was a draft pick that didn't work out, and there will continue to be players like this ever year the draft exists.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby eNlight on Mon May 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Man, that's a whole lot of words to pretty much say nothing. Again, hindsight is a nice thing to have, but sometimes you need to set it aside. I understand you can't understand this. With the information that was available in June 2004 Luke Jackson wen't right about where he should have. He wasn't a "nobody", he wasn't a surprise, etc.


no, he was a nobody. you can't understand it, you won't let it go.

And who said the front office was paying attention to draft boards from journalists? They do their own due diligence - you know, because it's their jobs. Just like it's the jobs of NBA journalists to put together their own draft boards. Jackson was a draft pick that didn't work out, and there will continue to be players like this ever year the draft exists.


you're trying to make it out that the FO was paying attention to draft boards. he was "supposed" to go a certain number, indicates that you're trying to sell the point that the FO was going by general consensus. good job shooting yourself in the foot. it was the NBA journalists, speculators, and probably even gamblers to put luke jackson in the top 10, and guess what? the cavs FO thought luke jackson was great enough to go 10 so they took him at 10! good job!
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby LAKEROC on Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:08 am

Kanter intrigues me in Cleveland. I would draft him over Williams, but not above Kyrie Irving
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby LAKEROC on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:27 pm

The thing I like about Kanter is that he is a post player, and not a 7 footer that wants to hang out and shoot 3's. I personally feel Utah is going back and forth between him and Brandon Knight at #3. Personally I think they should take Knight here at #3 and Dontas Montajunas with #12. However, if they go Kanter at #3, I would bet the house they go Fredette at #12. That's my prediction.

Here is hoping the Cavs get Enes Kanter and Kyrie Irving. They deserve it. Hoping next year they land Harrison Barnes. Irving-Barnes and Kanter are an excellent way to retool the franchise.
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Re: Cavs, Minny and Detroit discussing big trade

Postby Whatthef? on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:36 pm

Why wouldn't Minn. want D. Williams? This kid is going to be a great small forward for somebody.
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