Draft Express: Rodriguez Flying up Draft Boards

Postby Sky on Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:46 pm

Banks doesn't make other players better on defense? ohkaaaay.

Does the other side of the floor exist for you? C'mon Game.

Your reply is bunk. If a point can go over the screen and recover the pick and roll defense improves 100X. Slight weakness of ours.
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Postby GCMD on Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:47 pm

One more thing...

Banks' stats mean nothing...he played little in the beginning of the season so those stats aren't representative...he played spot-up duty in MIN...Sasha's J would look just as impressive...


Banks' J is not good...never has been...his form is still off and shaky...he is not consistent with his mechanics and form...he doesn't square up well...


While this is the easiest thing to correct, it's not guaranteed...




And interestingly enough, Banks is more of a fast-break PG himself!!!!

I guess we ignore that little fact because the statement about Phil underutilizing Sergio's potential would be negated???
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Postby GCMD on Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:53 pm

Sky wrote:Banks doesn't make other players better on defense? ohkaaaay.

Does the other side of the floor exist for you? C'mon Game.

Your reply is bunk. If a point can go over the screen and recover the pick and roll defense improves 100X. Slight weakness of ours.



I was talking about offense...playmaking...did you really not catch that???


P&R defense is only as good as both players defending it...I don't care how fast you recover on Nash, if the other guy isn't covered, score the 2 points...


Banks won't stop PGs by himself...period...and what happens when someone else takes someone NOT named Banks off the dribble?

Does Banks help them there?


You're acting like the only players that drive are PGs or someone BANKS can defend...this isn't Ron Artest we're talking about here...


We need a shotblocker...period...

Banks would be good but he won't do anything about our interior (lack of) defense...


You don't win or lose a game (defensively) on one position alone...
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Postby Sky on Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:03 pm

The stats I gave you for ATO are only his games in Minnesota. 54% from 3 in April is only Minnesota in big minutes. Just the Minnesota games he had a fg% of .454. Nice try though.

The current Laker bigs have proven they can show. The missing half of the equation is the point. Get that and they can defend pick and roll for the first time in a decade.

I know you were talking about playmaking. My point was to expand your point of view to include BOTH sides of the court when it comes to making your teammates better.

I fully reject the notion of offense-only thinking, it angers me greatly. So my response is part of my neverending Quixotesque quest to get Laker fans to miraculously value defense as much as offense. Impossible I know, but my mission nonetheless.

A shotblocker? Look at the free agent list. Now consider that Pryzbilla and Nazr go for more than MLE, pretty soon you're looking at Cato. Whose offensive skills are so lacking Phil wouldn't play him. It's a good idea in the abstract, but they can't get it in free agency.
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Postby GCMD on Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:15 pm

Sky wrote:The stats I gave you for ATO are only his games in Minnesota. 54% from 3 in April is only Minnesota in big minutes. Just the Minnesota games he had a fg% of .454. Nice try though.

The current Laker bigs have proven they can show. The missing half of the equation is the point. Get that and they can defend pick and roll for the first time in a decade.

I know you were talking about playmaking. My point was to expand your point of view to include BOTH sides of the court when it comes to making your teammates better.

I fully reject the notion of offense-only thinking, it angers me greatly. So my response is part of my neverending Quixotesque quest to get Laker fans to miraculously value defense as much as offense. Impossible I know, but my mission nonetheless.

A shotblocker? Look at the free agent list. Now consider that Pryzbilla and Nazr go for more than MLE, pretty soon you're looking at Cato. Whose offensive skills are so lacking Phil wouldn't play him. It's a good idea in the abstract, but they can't get it in free agency.


If people listened, we would have had a combination of Granger/Kwame and Diop...

I was told I was on crack about Diop's potential on the defensive side of the court...DAL in the Finals...biggest difference? interior defense...


You say that you want DEFENSE?

I was all over the LO for Artest thing...I guess that doesn't count...
What about me saying that we could use a good defender like DeMarr Johnson to shore up our perimeter D? means nothing...


You aren't the only one who values defense...you are the only on a crusade for Banks and you are the only one who is keeping the hate for D-Fish's "defense" alive...


New rules...they are here to encourage penetration and decrease 3pt attempts...

Your suggestion? Bring in a PG defender!!!


You want one thing...the league wants another...


Personal crusade or not, your views are too pointed without concern for the big picture...

You're looking at the trees and missing the forest...
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Postby Sky on Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:54 pm

If we don't have defense at 1 that can go over screens and recover we'll get shredded at a very high % in pick and roll and anything else the player can do is irrelevant. How's that for the big picture?

The league isn't moving to making defense at 1 unnecessary. The rules reward speed. Very important distinction.

Shotblocking is not a cure all. Neither is defense at 1. But make no mistake we need both.

Some fans value offensive skills at 1 as an absolute that cannot be touched. Only if a player clears that bar can ANYTHING else they do even be considered. Wolf at LG as the primary example. They refuse to value individual defense at 1. Or like you they point to the rules. The rules help penetrators, but what about pick and roll? Individual defensive skill at 1 is vital to pick and roll defense. Points are helpless in the new rules against penetration, skill doesn't matter? Banks was 5th in the league in % of fg's against inside. 22%. Individual defense matters. Including at 1.

This predates Fisher. I've been a Laker fan since 1971. Jerry West was the last Laker 1 that could defend anything. It's been thirty years and at this point I'm absolutely furious. This idiocy has to stop right now. If fans still refuse to value defense at 1 after these playoffs then I'm just left speechless. Have the last word.
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Postby GCMD on Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:31 pm

Discussion is moot...he's not attainable and Banks is a much easier target...


This is not you against the Laker Nation...it's your crusade vs. reality...the reality is there AREN'T very many defensive PGs in the league...not more than 2 or 3 at any ONE time...


LAL could get one but he will be just as one dimensional as any other player we could attain with the resources we have available...

And to compare Banks to one of the GREATEST guards of all time is sacrilege!!!!! I can't believe you had the motsy to go there!



I won't bother you anymore because like you said, this is pent-up frustration coming out...whether you accept it or not, what you want and what we can get is 2 different things...doesn't matter how much you try to convince yourself that Banks is the real deal...

Defense at the 1 is a good thing...but if it was the reason we lost in the 1st rnd, it would have been the reason PHO SHOULD have lost...

Oh wait! Our starting PG has a very low basketball IQ and he couldn't take advantage of that obvious matchup!!!

And Why is it that PHO won the Pacific divsion? Isn't Steve nash WIDELY regarded as Head matador of PGs???


I'm NOT ignoring what you are saying...I'm saying that it won't have as big of an impact as you think it will...MOST GOOD teams have at least 3 players that can both initiate the offense and penetrate off the dribble...

Shoring up the 1 while not protecting the basket is like putting on clean underwear without taking a bath...you're still gonna stink...
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Postby sister golden hair on Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:32 pm

Sky wrote:If we don't have defense at 1 that can go over screens and recover we'll get shredded at a very high % in pick and roll and anything else the player can do is irrelevant. How's that for the big picture?

The league isn't moving to making defense at 1 unnecessary. The rules reward speed. Very important distinction.

Shotblocking is not a cure all. Neither is defense at 1. But make no mistake we need both.

Some fans value offensive skills at 1 as an absolute that cannot be touched. Only if a player clears that bar can ANYTHING else they do even be considered. Wolf at LG as the primary example. They refuse to value individual defense at 1. Or like you they point to the rules. The rules help penetrators, but what about pick and roll? Individual defensive skill at 1 is vital to pick and roll defense. Points are helpless in the new rules against penetration, skill doesn't matter? Banks was 5th in the league in % of fg's against inside. 22%. Individual defense matters. Including at 1.

This predates Fisher. I've been a Laker fan since 1971. Jerry West was the last Laker 1 that could defend anything. It's been thirty years and at this point I'm absolutely furious. This idiocy has to stop right now. If fans still refuse to value defense at 1 after these playoffs then I'm just left speechless. Have the last word.


Youtr argument is sound. We don't disagree in principal. Given the parameters (limits) of PJ's offensive and defensive philosophies, Rodriguez is NOT the ideal choice, no question. But my retort to that would be when has Phil ever had a PG who could slice through a defense like this kid can? When did he even get within sniffing distance of one? Rodriguez brings a whole 'nother dimension to the Tri which could make it deadly -- harkening back to the West/Goodrich combo, or even Nixon/Magic where you had two guards who could take turns slicing up the defense. Jerry West wanted to draft Jason Williams badly the year that Sacto drafted him. Yeah, Wiliams turned out to be a poor leader, but still West saw the skill level and felt the clay was there to make something special. I think this kid is waaaay better than Williams because he appears to be an actual leader. So, I guess I'm saying: when you have a shot at a unique talent, you take your shot. I realize there are other intriguing talents (even in this weak draft, e,g, Vinicius), buit not one who can get your team freaking lay-ups, and can drive oppoising PGs crazy. The retort to that is: well, he's still young and probably two years away. Hey, T.Parker was pretty damn good his first year in the L, and this kid looks comparable.

Beyond that, however, and to more directly address your point about D: I agree that this team needs beter defense. No question. But name one PG in the league who can actually [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] down a mighty-mite PG given the rules on the perimeter? Even Jason Kidd gets burnt by the likes of Nash and Parker, no? PG on defense are really out on an Island, and I can't think of one who can shut someone down by his lonesome.

WHo in the league shuts Nash down? Dallas did it somewhat by using a long athlete like Howard, but let's face it, Nash was also running on fumes at that point. There was not enough petrol in the tank. So, maybe the idea is to find a longer perimeter athlete who can be be deployed defensively against the gnats -- footspeed is less essential than the ability to close off passing angles, and the ability to recover, close out, and make opposing PGs alter shots. Are there athletes of this caliber who can be picked up from the FA lists or from the draft? You say Mitch won't draft a PG and will not use the MLE on someone like Banks in the same year. I'm not sure why the MLE slot is so precious given the fact that he has gotten NOTHING out of it for two years running. It's been a total waste. If he can't get Banks, could he use it to obtain another defensive-minded perimeter player? (Or could he trade for one -- maybe Smith from ATL, who, BTW, also provides shotblocking?)

As for interior swatters, who is out there that could help? What about Keon Clarke -- (I know, I know, loves the bud), but he was long and could swat. maybe he could be a PJ reclamation project (they both love/loved the bud). Would keeping Mihm be that bad of an option? He can swat -- maybe not at elite levels, but he does provide a presence.

I'm asking if there are alternate scenarios where the defense can be improved, say, by improving the interior shotblocking and by creating a better presnece on the perimeter WITHOUT completely refusing to consider acquiring a talent like Rodriguez?

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Postby Sky on Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:03 pm

The Lakers tried contacting Keon two years ago and couldn't even get him to return calls. That ship has sailed, Keon flaked. Their best hope for acquiring swats is actually in this draft. Simmons, Sene, et al.

The one under the radar option I forgot to bring up before is Maceo Baston, a free agent for Maccabi Tel Aviv. Baston left a window to come back to the States this summer. No buyout issues he's a free agent. 6-9 former Big 10 defensive player of the year at Michigan. Had 5 swats in the Euroleague semis - in the first half. Has hops and great length. Has developed a midrange game in Europe, had no range at all in his last NBA gig (Chicago iirc). Had 15 rebounds in the finals. He can play.

But here's the catch. He's 30 and wants 2-3M per or he'll stay overseas.

The other Maccabi FA is Nicola Vujcic, 6-11 younger 4/5. Can hit elbow, had a triple double in the playoffs, great passer. Had 2 swats in a playoff game. Wants 3-4, more if the market will pay it, reportedly a popular NBA target.

As for a defensive swingman they're intereted in Miles and Jeffries. Kupchak is smoking the pipe on Josh Smith but without Bynum that can't happen. Speaking of which Bynum is probably their idea of having swats covered, which leads to doing nothing else.

Sergio has skills, but if Jackson refuses to use them it's wasted. Phil hasn't had a true point before but then he's also purposely avoided them. Payton could be considered a pure point I suppose, but his game was too far gone. That experience probably colors Jackson's perspective.

If I could trust them to add Banks then sure deal up for Rodriguez. But I don't trust them any further than I can throw them. I can very easily see no shotblockers added and they draft Sergio and that's it at 1. That would be far more likely with these fools then adding swats and Banks. So if all they did at 1 was deal up for Sergio, and they don't add swats or D at 3, this team is going to be roasted alive. Sergio is not an option unless they sign Banks and/or add funnel shotblockers. If they deal up for him they won't do the other two imo and we'll get incinerated yet again.

Game - I wasn't looking to compare Banks with West. Just saying that we've had a nonstop parade of matadors at the position ever since Logo. Banks isn't West by any stretch in any phase of the game but he would break the 30-year curse.
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