^it's like saying that Obama's not really that successful, even though he went to Harvard, was on faculty at the University of Chicago, and became president of the USA.

KJ MonK wrote:

Rooscooter wrote::man3: Did I miss New Years?.....
.

i realized that if I said "2012 LeBron" that'd be equivalent to 2005 Kobe (who was 3rd team all-NBA), we always use the latter year (unlike football) so I was just trying to be more exact lol

No problem.... I was just being a smart a**.... however I've missed New Years day many times..... but never New Year's Eve......

V1n5anity wrote:Had an argument like this before. My friend said LeBron is the better defender, rebounder, passer, finisher, shoots a higher FG%. Kobe is only a better scorer and a better clutch player (as is Carmelo when compared to LeBron).

What's a good reply to that?

Better defender now maybe, not in Kobe's prime he was a terrific perimeter defender. He wasn't as big as LeBron is either which makes it more impressive.

Of course LeBron is a better rebounder, he's bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Kobe ever was. Let's compare Dikembe Mutumbo's rebounding to Carlos Boozer while we're at it. One is bigger, taller, and more athletic than the other. Of course he'll have an advantage.

LeBron is a more willing passer than Kobe, I wouldn't call it better. Kobe's mindset is different. He wants to shoot first, second, sometimes third, and probably the fourth time too. LeBron wants to pass first, pass second, shoot the third, and the fourth is a toss. Different players, different mindsets. That doesn't mean he's a BETTER passer than Kobe. Kobe CAN make brilliant passes, he just doesn't do it very often.

Finishing and shooting a higher FG% is almost a given. Kobe's smaller and plays a wing position. LeBron gets the vast majority of his points from attacking with his giant frame. Kobe gets most of his points from the field. If you compare most guards to most forwards, the forwards will have a higher FG%. Of course he's able to finish easier around the rim, he's bigger and stronger physically. But if you're looking at prime Kobe, he was still more than capable of finishing at the rim or the line.

therealdeal wrote:

V1n5anity wrote:Had an argument like this before. My friend said LeBron is the better defender, rebounder, passer, finisher, shoots a higher FG%. Kobe is only a better scorer and a better clutch player (as is Carmelo when compared to LeBron).

What's a good reply to that?

Better defender now maybe, not in Kobe's prime he was a terrific perimeter defender. He wasn't as big as LeBron is either which makes it more impressive.

Of course LeBron is a better rebounder, he's bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Kobe ever was. Let's compare Dikembe Mutumbo's rebounding to Carlos Boozer while we're at it. One is bigger, taller, and more athletic than the other. Of course he'll have an advantage.

LeBron is a more willing passer than Kobe, I wouldn't call it better. Kobe's mindset is different. He wants to shoot first, second, sometimes third, and probably the fourth time too. LeBron wants to pass first, pass second, shoot the third, and the fourth is a toss. Different players, different mindsets. That doesn't mean he's a BETTER passer than Kobe. Kobe CAN make brilliant passes, he just doesn't do it very often.

Finishing and shooting a higher FG% is almost a given. Kobe's smaller and plays a wing position. LeBron gets the vast majority of his points from attacking with his giant frame. Kobe gets most of his points from the field. If you compare most guards to most forwards, the forwards will have a higher FG%. Of course he's able to finish easier around the rim, he's bigger and stronger physically. But if you're looking at prime Kobe, he was still more than capable of finishing at the rim or the line.

It doesn't matter what the reasons are for one player being better at another at something, the result is what matters.

LeBron is a better defender now than Kobe ever was. Kobe really only had a few elite defensive years back in the early 2000s and then some good ones from 06-09 but never really anything on LeBron's level. LeBron can basically defend 1-5 so his versatility makes him way more valuable defensively.

Yes Kobe is a really amazing playmaker, but he doesn't have the court vision LeBron has. LeBron's is almost Magic'esque. He can also pass out of the post really well because of his height.

And again LeBron is more efficient than Kobe at the end of the day, regardless of how the points come. LeBron's jump shot went to hell in the Finals and he was still able to average like 28 points on good efficiency.

Weezy wrote:Kobe was an amazing defender in his prime and earlier years when he wanted to be. Just go back and look at a game like game 7 of the 2000 WCF to see an example, he guarded like 5 different Blazers that game, Stoudemire, Pippen, Wells, maybe a few others I forget. I disagree that LeBron now is a better defender than Kobe ever was, just because of how many positions he can guard. NBA ball was tougher back then, defense was more physical, there were tons of crafty veterans playing on fantastic teams, and Kobe was great at defense. I honestly think the talent pool is weaker now and LeBron plays and defends a lot of crap players and weak teams. Nothing against him, you play who you play, but that's how I feel.

As far as offense goes I also take prime Kobe. Guy was unstoppable, could score from absolutely anywhere on the floor, hit 3's from the parking lot, footwork in the post was amazing, added the bank shot, had the fadeaway on automatic, could still slash to the hoop, just incredible. LeBron has power, and he has improved shooting, not much else, his athleticism has been most of his scoring for most of his career. So yes, both great players, but prime Kobe was on another level.

The reason I agree that LeBron is a better defender than Kobe ever was is because of help defense. On-ball D was pretty similar between the two players and one could definitely argue Kobe was better at that...but it's close. When you look at help D, there's really no contest, LeBron blows Kobe out of the water.

Also, @realdeal, I agree with JoelMyers, it doesn't matter WHAT makes LeBron better at sometimes, the fact is he is better at it (rebounding/defence/passing).

Also, LeBron is a better passer than Kobe for 3 reasons. 1) He's a more willing passer and 2) he's a more accurate passer and 3) he has better court vision. It doesn't matter if Kobe is less willing or he CAN be a good passer...the fact still remains that he's not as good as a passer.

You asked for the arguments and I gave them.

For it to not matter... okay.

He's a better physical specimen than Kobe Bryant, so I guess he's better? Kobe in his prime is still better LeBron James. I will defend that until the day that I die.

I guess because Wilt was more athletic than Kareem, he's better. It doesn't matter if one or the other is more talented because Wilt was bigger and stronger and that allowed him to do more things. Nevermind Kareem is the better winner and scorer right?

LeBron is the better rebounder and passer. So is Larry Bird. Larry Bird > Kobe Bryant.

therealdeal wrote:You asked for the arguments and I gave them.

For it to not matter... okay.

It's not that they don't matter, but everything you said I HAVE said in arguments against LeBron fans. They will always say the same thing that it doesn't matter what makes LeBron better at something, all that matters is the end result that LeBron is better. Again, I'm asking for arguments I can use to stump them. I believe 06 Kobe > 13 LeBron, but I get in arguments all the time and need some material.

He's a better physical specimen than Kobe Bryant, so I guess he's better? Kobe in his prime is still better LeBron James. I will defend that until the day that I die.

I guess because Wilt was more athletic than Kareem, he's better. It doesn't matter if one or the other is more talented because Wilt was bigger and stronger and that allowed him to do more things. Nevermind Kareem is the better winner and scorer right?

LeBron is the better rebounder and passer. So is Larry Bird. Larry Bird > Kobe Bryant.

Well LeBron isn't just a better rebounder and passer, he's also a better defender. If Larry was a better defender than Kobe, then most would say Larry > Kobe.

If someone you're arguing against says that your argument doesn't matter, they're doing an awful job arguing.

Person 1: "I like the thousand island dressing more than ranch because-"
Person 2: "It doesn't matter."

That's just a poor argument. Next time they say it doesn't matter, then you say "okay well the fact that he's a better rebounder doesn't matter then because he's a SF/PF and not a SG".

Sidenote: relative to his position, Kobe is an EXCELLENT rebounder.

I still maintain that Kobe in his prime defensively could hold his own against any 1-3 in the league. All things relative, that is more impressive to me than a man who's physically bigger and stronger and can defend 1-4. LeBron cannot guard Dwight Howard or Andrew Bynum (the only real Centers left), so let's not pretend he's a 1-5 guy.

Again, we're comparing two different positions in basketball. Let's just say Chris Paul is better than prime Kobe Bryant too because he's got much better passing and court vision. Or Dirk Nowitzki is better than Kobe Bryant because he's taller.

Same thing.

Just tell your friends if prime Kobe and Lebron were to go 1 on 1 who would win and remind them that Kobe was guarding the likes of T-Mac in his prime who is longer than Lebron. They are asking for the better player right? When my friends tell me they are better than me i challenge them to 1 on 1 games if they win then they are better if i win then ****. If they talk about Lebron being the better "Team" player than ask them who has more rings as a "Team" Lebron at 27 or Kobe at 27? Then if they talk about all the better "stats" just tell them i rather have a better team player and a better player then a stats hog.

Chris Palmer, who's done nothing but inhale LeBron's jock strap for the past years, said that prime Kobe (defensively) was a better perimeter defender than LeBron AND MJ. People forget how amazing Kobe's defensive ability was in his defensive prime. Complete lockdown defender. LeBron's defensive advantage is purely his size and speed, while Kobe has waay better defensive fundamentals, not to mention in his prime he was a far better 1 on 1 defender than LeBron, who's strength has always been help defense, even if he's improved his man D.
Same goes for rebounding, it's just random size, but as realdeal pointed out, for a guy in his position Kobe's a very good rebounder, and that has to do less with freakish athleticism and more with fundamentals and IQ.

I've had this argument many times before (particulary with you once V1n5anity), there are many criterias for "better". Are we talking perceived statistical production? Are we talking skills? Are we talking achievements? Because as the criteria changes so do the arguments, vastly. Prime Kobe, SKILL-wise (which is my personal preference as a criteria to determine who's "better") trumps current LeBron. He just does. Before you answer, you should go back at that discussion we were having in some thread about LeBron vs others skill-wise, I posted a pretty lengthy explanation of what skills in sports mean unlike what you suggested.

I view LeBron as the jack of many trades (not all, because there are very obvious flaws in his game), but if you're going to have a team around someone, then you've gotta go with Kobe. What he does, he does better than anyone, and that's score. Sure, LeBron can pass, but that's what a PG's for. He may rebound better, but when you've got a Dwight Howard on your team, he's not going to get many chances. In a well constructed, balanced team, his many trades are going to be diminished due to others who have focused on one part of the game. I mean, as with the case of many other things, there comes a point of diminishing returns. Besides, there's no guarantee that LeBron is going to remain elite for 6 more years.

V1n5anity wrote:Had an argument like this before. My friend said LeBron is the better defender, rebounder, passer, finisher, shoots a higher FG%. Kobe is only a better scorer and a better clutch player (as is Carmelo when compared to LeBron).

What's a good reply to that?

Lebron is not a better individual defender than prime Kobe. He's a better rebounder (he should be, he's 6'9) and a better passer. And Kobe, despite being smaller, is a better postup player than Lebron, which is frankly embarrassing considering Lebron's physical size and stature.

Part of being a star is being to respond in pressure situations. Lebron, until last season, didn't do a great job of being reliable under pressure. Nothing against Lebron, but if I want rebounding and passing, I'll pickup some PG's and some bigs to do that. Give me a guy who can put the ball in the basket from anywhere on the floor and do it under pressure.

I only pick MJ in 1989 over Kobe in 2006. MJ was 35-8-8 and shot 53.8 pct. It wasn't even an MVP year, Magic won that year. However, 35-8-8 and 53% from the field from a guard is nasty ridiculous.

Hakeem in 1994, Shaq in 2000, Wilt in 1962 are years that come to mind also as far as amazing single seasons. But comparing centers and perimeter players isn't realistic. Different games, different scenarios.

Rooscooter wrote::man3: Did I miss New Years?.....

Smart A** comments aside.... LeBron is like no one that's ever played IMHO.... there really isn't much he can't do on the court. He's a stat machine and has added to his game in recent years. As far as a skilled basketball talent he's the best I've ever seen on an all around basis.

However...... his mental approach/make-up is where he falls way short of a Kobe Bryant. Kobe doesn't believe that there is anything he can't do..... ever. That makes an incredible talent like Kobe into one of the top 3 players/winners I've ever seen play.

Agree.... Kobe was great that year but also jacked alot of shots up.

Scnottaken wrote: then you've gotta go with Kobe. What he does, he does better than anyone, and that's score. Sure, LeBron can pass, but that's what a PG's for. He may rebound better, but when you've got a Dwight Howard on your team, he's not going to get many chances.

I originally had the thought that LeBron was easier to construct a team around because he covers so many bases with his size and skill set, you can literally pick any position 2nd to go with him... but that was a great point
lebron doesnt do any one thing better than any1 in history that can't be gameplanned against or slowed down with age
i just trust kobe more than lebron at the end of the day
in an all-time draft, you're have a better chance replacing what lebron does with other players that do it just as well than what Kobe does (cause you won't get jordan)
but yea it looks like the question basically should be "Will 2018 LeBron be as effective as 2012 Kobe?" since it's who you want on your team