2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Who would you draft?

2006 Kobe
43
81%
2012 LeBron
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Iceberg Slim on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:32 am

Kobe, as he proved in 2006, does the opposite. When the going gets tough, he shoots his way out. When he's on, the team wins. When he's off, the team loses. Everything rides on Kobe's accuracy that night. That is not team basketball.


Completely spot-on.

And that is exactly why LeBron dominates the MVP voting and has already won 4 mvps. His impact on the game is so much more profound in many different aspects. He is the definition of "valuable". And I see him winning taking home a few more the next few seasons to end up with 7-8, which would be a record.


Either people don't understand this (philosophically) or don't want to acknowledge it for it's painful truth. This is essentially why (statistically) it's very difficult for James to have a "bad game". He does so much that affects the outcome of games possession by possession. Stat-stuffer defines him. And yes, I see him getting 3-4 MVP's in the next 7 years.

He could easily average 30 ppg if he wanted too but he chooses to play team ball.


I agree. But he plays to his strength. 65/35 scoring to passing. He know's he's the best. And he knows how to dominate. If his jumper and clutch ability consistently stay on elite level for 5-6 years, he can and will go down as one of the top 3 players to ever pick up a basketball.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby gcclaker on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:07 am

Bryant IS a scoring machine. James is not but he could be. Different mentality. I have mad respect for 24 but I would like my pick to be able contribute in ALL areas. Laker homer glasses down...I'd take James. The ONLY issue I would hedge on is that killer instinct which there is a chasm between the two. Now, if these two would play against each other in a time warp? I don't think James would even slow down Bryant.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:12 am

Iceberg,

Regarding CP3. He is going to have to win something to be ranked a top 3 player of all-time. That is obviously rarified air and you have to have multiple rings, mvps and finals mvps to even sniff that area. Right now, he has none of those.

But if you are referring to his talents and skills as a PG, I would agree. I know it sounds crazy but I think he's the most complete PG to have ever played the game. If you look at his overall game, I can't find one weakness. Not one. Call me crazy, but if you gave me the option of taking any PG in history to start a team, I would take him just behind Magic. The guy is just so good and so complete.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:12 am

gcclaker wrote:Bryant IS a scoring machine. James is not but he could be. Different mentality. I have mad respect for 24 but I would like my pick to be able contribute in ALL areas. Laker homer glasses down...I'd take James. The ONLY issue I would hedge on is that killer instinct which there is a chasm between the two. Now, if these two would play against each other in a time warp? I don't think James would even slow down Bryant.

This.

I think 2006 Kobe would destroy LeBron's soul. He was that vicious.

If I'm starting a team? It's LeBron. But if it's the Playoffs, I want Kobe.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:11 am

We will never know how good 2006 Kobe could have been with a good roster around him though ...

I don't think 2008 Kobe/2009 Kobe were as much unstoppable as 2006 Kobe ... he had a much better cast so of course it's tough to judge but the fingers injury were a factor in his long ball shot/Ballhandling ( and the knee surgery in the 06 Summer had an impact on his explosiveness ) ...

I think if you put 2006 Kobe on the 2008 squad we would have had a better shot at beating Boston
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:32 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:We will never know how good 2006 Kobe could have been with a good roster around him though ...

I don't think 2008 Kobe/2009 Kobe were as much unstoppable as 2006 Kobe ... he had a much better cast so of course it's tough to judge but the fingers injury were a factor in his long ball shot/Ballhandling ( and the knee surgery in the 06 Summer had an impact on his explosiveness ) ...

I think if you put 2006 Kobe on the 2008 squad we would have had a better shot at beating Boston


Usually, guys who lead the league in scoring don't play for teams that win it all. Jordan was the exception along with a few others. And there's a reason for it. When one guy carries that much of a burden, the concept of team ball is seriously affected. Early in Jordan's career, he was scoring more efficiently and at a higher ppg than later in his career but he was getting bounced in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs. And that's because he didn't know how to win yet. It takes more than scoring to win at the highest level. You have to be able to elevate the play of your teammates by drawing the double teams and creating easy opportunities for them. It's a balancing act of being selfish and unselfish. The great ones know when to pick their spots. Just cause a guy gets 50 points doesn't mean he gave his team the best chance to win. It all comes down to how he got those points. Sometimes a guy can get 50 within the flow of the offense and sometimes a guy can get 30 at the expense of the offense.

2006 Kobe was not ready to lead a team to a title yet, at least not as "the man". His mindset was too single mindedly focused on scoring. And yes, there is a huge difference between winning a ring as second fiddle and as "the man". As "the man", the defense focuses primarily on what you do. So it's on you to constantly make the right decision of whether to pass or shoot. When to take over and when to sit back. When you are second fiddle, you have the luxury of knowing that the defense has their focus not primarily on you but on another superstar. So you can kind of pick your spots. No, I'm not saying it was all Shaq but simply pointing out that when teams faced the Lakers, their keys to stopping them was Shaq, first and foremost. That was their focus. And when you have that luxury, as the second fiddle, there is less pressure on you. Kobe eventually figured out how to win as "the man" starting around 2008, when he truly matured mentally and the supporting pieces were strong enough. He played the game the right way. Sure he had stretches of his naturally tendency to shoot too much but for the most part, he had matured into a truly all time great by knowing how to win as "the man". He wasn't ready in 2006.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Finwë on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:34 pm

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:I think one big issue in the debate is that some fans care about effectiveness, what they'd call the bottom line. Another camp of fans look at the completeness of the game, the artistry of it.

I'm in the latter camp.

I can appreciate the effectiveness of LeBron, his size and quickness when he drives to the rim. The same way I appreciate the sheer thunder when Shaq dunked. Some guys have ugly games, but their superior physique and strength make them better than everyone else. LeBron, Shaq, Wilt, and even Barkley are in this category. I marvel at their physical dominance of the game.

The guys that really amaze me are the artists, the consummate professionals. They are masters of their craft, and they transcend what the rest of the guys are able to do. Kobe, MJ, KAJ, and Magic are all in this category, are my favorite players of all time (not necessarily in that order).

For me at least, valuing the second category makes it hard for me to put guys in the first category at the top of the game. I can appreciate them, but I can't put them above the artists of the game.

This is my stance too.
I've written a bunch of posts explaining this myself, about viewing the game as more than just stats and efficiency -> viewing it as art, focusing on skills and proficiency, mastering the craft. That's what I value the most about it.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Iceberg Slim on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Iceberg,

Regarding CP3. He is going to have to win something to be ranked a top 3 player of all-time. That is obviously rarified air and you have to have multiple rings, mvps and finals mvps to even sniff that area. Right now, he has none of those.




My apologies. When you spoke of averaging 30+ I thought you were speaking of Lebron, not Chris Paul. All my statements were concerning Bron.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Finwë on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:51 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:We will never know how good 2006 Kobe could have been with a good roster around him though ...

I don't think 2008 Kobe/2009 Kobe were as much unstoppable as 2006 Kobe ... he had a much better cast so of course it's tough to judge but the fingers injury were a factor in his long ball shot/Ballhandling ( and the knee surgery in the 06 Summer had an impact on his explosiveness ) ...

I think if you put 2006 Kobe on the 2008 squad we would have had a better shot at beating Boston


Usually, guys who lead the league in scoring don't play for teams that win it all. Jordan was the exception along with a few others. And there's a reason for it. When one guy carries that much of a burden, the concept of team ball is seriously affected. Early in Jordan's career, he was scoring more efficiently and at a higher ppg than later in his career but he was getting bounced in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs. And that's because he didn't know how to win yet. It takes more than scoring to win at the highest level. You have to be able to elevate the play of your teammates by drawing the double teams and creating easy opportunities for them. It's a balancing act of being selfish and unselfish. The great ones know when to pick their spots. Just cause a guy gets 50 points doesn't mean he gave his team the best chance to win. It all comes down to how he got those points. Sometimes a guy can get 50 within the flow of the offense and sometimes a guy can get 30 at the expense of the offense.

2006 Kobe was not ready to lead a team to a title yet, at least not as "the man". His mindset was too single mindedly focused on scoring. And yes, there is a huge difference between winning a ring as second fiddle and as "the man". As "the man", the defense focuses primarily on what you do. So it's on you to constantly make the right decision of whether to pass or shoot. When to take over and when to sit back. When you are second fiddle, you have the luxury of knowing that the defense has their focus not primarily on you but on another superstar. So you can kind of pick your spots. No, I'm not saying it was all Shaq but simply pointing out that when teams faced the Lakers, their keys to stopping them was Shaq, first and foremost. That was their focus. And when you have that luxury, as the second fiddle, there is less pressure on you. Kobe eventually figured out how to win as "the man" starting around 2008, when he truly matured mentally and the supporting pieces were strong enough. He played the game the right way. Sure he had stretches of his naturally tendency to shoot too much but for the most part, he had matured into a truly all time great by knowing how to win as "the man". He wasn't ready in 2006.

Lol. "He wasn't ready". There was no chance... His team was just terrible. He could've played with a much more team-inclined, pass-inclined mentality and the outcome probably isn't any better (it's probably even worse). One player can only do so much; the talent around him matters, greatly. If you've played basketball, this is obvious. I've played in teams with all my best friends, everyone sharing the ball and playing together -- and we got killed. And I've played with guys that I didn't even like, who were selfish at many occations (and so was I in some) and we won, because they were just better players than my friends.. It's not that complicated.
I'm not saying that playing together and sharing the ball has no effect in success; it does, it's very important. But it clearly takes a backseat to the importance of surrounding talent.

I have absolutely no doubt that if the Pau trade (and other moves that made the 08-'10 team) happen 2 years early, Kobe wouldn't have had any problem leading that team to the top of the mountain. Absolutely no doubt. He wanted to win above all, and he'd done it before: he knew what it took. Let's not fall for the whole media-fed idea that Kobe "learned to be a leader" in 08... He had a much better team, with much better chances of success, and he played accordingly.
If I was as talented as he was, and Luke Walton and Chris Mihm and Smush Parker were on my team, then yeah, I would've gone for the records too. There's no way I'm winning anyway, so at least lemme show people what I can do with this thing. But if my team is good, and I feel we can win, then I'm playing for nothing else than that, winning. That's Kobe's mentality IMO.

What you're basically suggesting is that, if everything remains the same and you swap the 08-09 Kobe with the 06 Kobe, they don't win? Because 06 Kobe wouldn't pass as much and wouldn't be able to lead? Thats BS IMO. It's all about circumstances. If 06 Kobe had a competitive roster with him, he'd probably be sitting on more than titles by now. Let's not get carried away with this idea that Kobe magically grew into a different player over a couple of years, and downplay the role that surrounding TALENT has. C'mon now.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Johnnyboy on Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:43 pm

Ray Allen changed the future of how people perceive Lebron. If he misses that, its a different story. Also, talk about the easiest road to a ring (competition wise). The bucks? LOL The bulls minus rose/deng/hinrich and an injured noah. The Young pacers with no Granger to shore up the bench, still goes 7. They go 7 games with an old washed up Spurs team with an injured parker. Manu gave them the game several times and still managed to almost choke. Who has had an easier road to a ring (quality of opponents) in the last 20 years? The lakers swept the playoffs years back, but not because of lack of quality teams, but because they were DOMINANT. Lebron won't in miami unless the entire league gets hurt again.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:40 pm

^ Very true. We forget the truth amidst all the media-created lies.

It wasn't Kobe that matured into a champion in 2009, it was his team.

The same can be said about LeBron to some degree.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:05 am

The " Kobe matures" argument is just a narrative ... his team was just much better in 08 than in 2006 ...
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Scnottaken on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I guess being a basketball purist, Kobe's game has always rubbed me the wrong way. If you have played the game and appreciate the game in its purist form, you know that Kobe has not been playing the game the right way . . ..

So you're saying LeBron's ref assisted, bull in a china shop attempt at a game is better than footwork, pure form and actual skill?
I want to hear "Beat LA" chants at a Clipper vs Laker game
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby shaq_hater on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:13 am

kobe over bron.
then again, 2013 lebron has 4 mvps, 2 rings, 2 finals mvps. whereas 2006 kobe, has 3 rings, and smush parker.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Finwë on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:48 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:The " Kobe matures" argument is just a narrative ... his team was just much better in 08 than in 2006 ...

exactly
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Johnnyboy on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:21 pm

Kobe in his prime was beating the spurs in their prime. Lebron in his prime went 7 games with a washed up spurs team with an injured parker.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Congo Cash on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:14 pm

People just don't realize just how bad the Lakers were in 2006 (or how good Miami is)...

Bryant
Odom
Parker
Mihm
Cook
Brown
George
Walton
Profit
Vucajic
Turiaf
Jackson
Bynum
Wafer
Medvedenko
Green
Mckie

If I haven't watched the Lakers that year and you told me they almost beat the Suns in the PO, I would have laughed for 3 hours straight...
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Iceberg Slim on Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:35 am

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:^ Very true. We forget the truth amidst all the media-created lies.

It wasn't Kobe that matured into a champion in 2009, it was his team.



We also like to buy into our own beliefs at times too. You should read 11 rings. Phil Jackson might change your mind about this.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Weezy on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:44 pm

Phil Jackson giving himself top credit for Kobe becoming a leader in his own book, shocker. :man12: Just playin, Kobe did mature and realize he could trust his (much improved) team in '08, and Phil deserves credit for sure, but he also was a beast, a winner, and a leader on a team of grown men already at 21 when we rolled the West in the playoffs and Kobe destroyed some of the best teams of the era. I have to believe that if we could almost beat that Suns team with a complete joke of a roster, if Kobe had consistently good rosters his whole career he would have remained in title contention every season. He and LeBron are alike in that way, you give them a halfway decent team and they'll take you deep in the playoffs at the very least. 2001 Kobe, 2006 like, 2009 Kobe, pretty much the same skilled, amazing player, going to be a contender with a good team around him, IMO of course.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:11 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:
V.V.V.V.V. wrote:^ Very true. We forget the truth amidst all the media-created lies.

It wasn't Kobe that matured into a champion in 2009, it was his team.



We also like to buy into our own beliefs at times too. You should read 11 rings. Phil Jackson might change your mind about this.


Point taken. I've been meaning to get a copy of that book.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby slimjim on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:13 pm

It's easier to build around Lebron compared to Kobe.
just like it's easier to build around Magic compared to Jordan.

Now that's not saying lebron>kobe or magic>jordan.

It just is what it is.

One mold is the PF sized pass first player with exceptional PG skills.
The other mold is a shoot first SG with an excellent all round game.

If I were starting a franchise and could have my pick at a lebron/magic type or a kobe/jordan type? give me the lebron/magic type.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby strategos on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:40 am

Weezy wrote:Phil Jackson giving himself top credit for Kobe becoming a leader in his own book, shocker. :man12: Just playin, Kobe did mature and realize he could trust his (much improved) team in '08, and Phil deserves credit for sure, but he also was a beast, a winner, and a leader on a team of grown men already at 21 when we rolled the West in the playoffs and Kobe destroyed some of the best teams of the era. I have to believe that if we could almost beat that Suns team with a complete joke of a roster, if Kobe had consistently good rosters his whole career he would have remained in title contention every season. He and LeBron are alike in that way, you give them a halfway decent team and they'll take you deep in the playoffs at the very least. 2001 Kobe, 2006 like, 2009 Kobe, pretty much the same skilled, amazing player, going to be a contender with a good team around him, IMO of course.


Could not agree more.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:57 am

plus Kobe led his team to the Finals 4 months after we acquired the player who will make us a legit contender in Pau ... quickest maturation ever !
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby baller4life on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:20 am

I think people tend to quickly forget things that they dont like. Back in 06 everybody knew that all the Lakers need was consistent 2nd option and they will be contender because Kobe was just something else back then. I mean he outscored By himself Mavs team that went to the finals that year.
What happenend was the Gasol trade, but keep in mind that he didnt have a single playoff win before Kobe and Lakers. After that 3 straight trips to the finals.
IMO with Kobe Bryant in his prime you dont need superstacked team to win. I mean LeBron is quickly making his way up in the history rankings but lets just not ignore the fact that he joined a former finals mvp who happenend to be a top 5-10 player in the league along with Bosh a top 10 "big" in the league and some of the greatest shooters in the history.
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Re: 2006 Kobe or 2013 LeBron: Who would you pick?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:06 am

I really don't know what the Kobe defenders are trying to say. Are you actually DENYING that Kobe didn't play selfish ball at times when his supporting cast was subpar? I certainly hope not. Because he clearly did and Phil Jackson completely confirmed this.

Or are you simply excusing his ball hogging ways because the team was bad and they didn't have much to work with? If that's the case, it simply proves my point that Kobe was trying to get his when he knew the team had no chance to win and only decided to play team ball when he knew the team was good enough to compete. Translation, he finally matured. And that is a stark contrast from a guy like LeBron or Magic or CP3, guys who, no matter how bad the team, would always try to play basketball the right way. I.e. team game, move the ball, move yourselves, and try to create the easiest basket possible.

Now, if the supporting cast was top notch right after Shaq left, would Kobe have matured quicker? Maybe, maybe not. But Kobe has proven time and time again that when he thinks the teams isn't good enough, he tries to do too much and again, Phil completely confirmed this theory. Like the 04 and 08 finals.

At his peak, I would put Kobe right up there with MJ as the most devastating and complete offensive force ever. He was just that good. But this isn't about his talents. This is about how he played the game. And he didn't play the game the right way during those down years. You can excuse it all you want but it is what it is. That's all i'm saying.
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