Andrew Bynum Discussion: Out for the season, 2x knee surgery

MadMax · by **MadMax** on Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:19 am

That's a lot of grey hair for a young fella

KB24 · by **KB24** on Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:50 am

jimbo327 wrote:ugly jersey

yes, has a Clipper touch to it.

Scnottaken · by **Scnottaken** on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:28 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:
nameant wrote:I understand why they believe otherwise. He's a huge upgrade for them. And I agree he had a problem with being unmotivated and disinterested sometimes as the #2 guy, but that's his problem. That is what separates the top tier from the second tier. Yes Nash is older, but we have 3 superstars on this team now, 3 future HOFers. Do you believe any of them will be less motivated playing with each other? Plenty of teams have/have had 2+ franchise players at the same time and have flourished. The Heat just won it all with 2 franchise players, the Celtics had 3 of them that contributed at an equal level during their run, the old Lakers had Kobe and Shaq, Showtime had Magic, Worthy, & Kareem, the Bulls had Jordan and Pippen, and the list goes on.

Actually, most folks would disagree with you here. Guys who are unsatisfied with being the #2 guy and hunger for that #1 option role often make the best leaders provided they're actually good enough to fill that #1 spot. Now if you have a player who isn't as good as he thinks he is, then yes, I'd agree with you. However Andrew is incredibly talented and a force on the floor when he's eager and motivated. Right now it's a bit of a toss up with him as he's had his ups and his downs over the years, but most folks are betting on him being motivated in his new surroundings.

With regards to Nash, he's an aging superstar hunting for a chip, and thus while he's not being relegated to role player status, history will tell us that players in his position are often more willing to defer a bit more than a player in his prime with two rings looking to forge his own legacy elsewhere. Comparing Drew's situation with Steve's is apples to oranges as they both have completely different goals at this point in their respective careers. It's why Boston's Big Three worked in '08 as all three of those guys were into the twilight years of their careers and hunting for their first chip. Conversely it's why Shaq and Kobe couldn't be held together beyond '04. Had one of those guys been ok with being a #2, they'd have dominated the league for a decade. Instead we all know how that turned out.

I think what Nameant is saying is Bynum didn't try when he wasn't the focal point. I guess many here would rather have off-court acting out vs. on-court acting out. Howard vs. Bynum.

V.V.V.V.V. · by **V.V.V.V.V.** on Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm

After posting for months that Dwight is not a franchise player, and that he's a natural #2, I can't say that he's the franchise player we've been looking for. Dwight fits well as the #2 option on a championship team, so he's perfect for the current LA roster. Maybe after he wins a few rings and Kobe retires, he'll be ready for the #1 position on a championship team, but right now he's not ready. He can lead a decent team to the playoffs, but he had his hat handed to him by GASOL in 09. This doesn't mean that he can't be the FACE of the franchise, which is what the Lakers brass wants from him, now and after Kobe's gone. That's different from being THE MAN on the court. And Dwight seems to be ok with that, since he said in the press conference that he thinks the team wants him to anchor the defense down low, not be the leading scorer.

As for Drew, he wanted a shot at being the #1, and now there he is. Be careful what you wish for, Drew. Now you have to perform well every night, and take responsibility for the wins and the losses. Time to grow up.

Center Court · by **Center Court** on Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:34 pm

Drew can't lead a franchise. He can play at the role of one on the floor, maybe. But, he is not a franchise cornerstone.

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
KG
KD

those guys were/are legit players who can carry a franchise.

Clearly Drew is no where near any of those guys. Doesn't walk, talk, dress, play, dedicate, care, want, lead, or commit to being that guy like those guys do/did.

bystander · by **bystander** on Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:48 am

dress

KB24 · by **KB24** on Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:13 am

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:After posting for months that Dwight is not a franchise player, and that he's a natural #2, I can't say that he's the franchise player we've been looking for. Dwight fits well as the #2 option on a championship team, so he's perfect for the current LA roster. Maybe after he wins a few rings and Kobe retires, he'll be ready for the #1 position on a championship team, but right now he's not ready. He can lead a decent team to the playoffs, but he had his hat handed to him by GASOL in 09. This doesn't mean that he can't be the FACE of the franchise, which is what the Lakers brass wants from him, now and after Kobe's gone. That's different from being THE MAN on the court. And Dwight seems to be ok with that, since he said in the press conference that he thinks the team wants him to anchor the defense down low, not be the leading scorer.

As for Drew, he wanted a shot at being the #1, and now there he is. Be careful what you wish for, Drew. Now you have to perform well every night, and take responsibility for the wins and the losses. Time to grow up.

He brought the Magic to the finals, that's a big deal for a scrub team. Also Howard was 23 in 2009...it happens. He didn't play terrible in that series, the Lakers were just the much more talented team.

Dwight is a top 5 NBA player and a top 5 player is always a franchise player and someone to build around. I really don't see your logic there.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:42 am

I don't see the logic there either. Dwight is easily a cornerstone type of player. Any time you're the best at your position, it's difficult not to be that player.

And your example of taking scrubs to the Finals doesn't make sense either. LeBron, before Miami, didn't do anything better than Dwight did in Orlando. Would you not consider him a franchise player?

V.V.V.V.V. · by **V.V.V.V.V.** on Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:42 pm

KB24 wrote:
V.V.V.V.V. wrote:After posting for months that Dwight is not a franchise player, and that he's a natural #2, I can't say that he's the franchise player we've been looking for. Dwight fits well as the #2 option on a championship team, so he's perfect for the current LA roster. Maybe after he wins a few rings and Kobe retires, he'll be ready for the #1 position on a championship team, but right now he's not ready. He can lead a decent team to the playoffs, but he had his hat handed to him by GASOL in 09. This doesn't mean that he can't be the FACE of the franchise, which is what the Lakers brass wants from him, now and after Kobe's gone. That's different from being THE MAN on the court. And Dwight seems to be ok with that, since he said in the press conference that he thinks the team wants him to anchor the defense down low, not be the leading scorer.

As for Drew, he wanted a shot at being the #1, and now there he is. Be careful what you wish for, Drew. Now you have to perform well every night, and take responsibility for the wins and the losses. Time to grow up.

He brought the Magic to the finals, that's a big deal for a scrub team. Also Howard was 23 in 2009...it happens. He didn't play terrible in that series, the Lakers were just the much more talented team.

Dwight is a top 5 NBA player and a top 5 player is always a franchise player and someone to build around. I really don't see your logic there.

First off, that 2009 Magic team was not a scrub team. Rashard Lewis was still a great player, Hedo was "most improved" or whatever that season, and Jameer had a breakout season. That was a pretty good team, but Dwight didn't come through for them. A "top 5" player woud seize the moment, be aggressive, and lead his team to victories. Instead, Dwight was schooled by Pau, who is notorious for backing down against an aggressive player. He couldn't assert himself against PAU.

My second point is that Dwight is definitely a marketable player, so he's "franchise" in that sense, but he can't be the #1 option on a championship team. His problem is closing, and part of it's attitude, while the other part is poor free-throw shooting. It has been extensively argued by me and others in the Dwight thread, that he's not quite the man to lead his team to a championship. It's ok, Pau doesn't have it either, neither did Barkley nor Malone, nor Ewing. It takes a fearless MF who can set the tone in a game, or come through in the 4th and win the pivotal game in a series. Kobe has it, MJ had it, LeBron had it this year, Duncan has it too. The ability to lead a team, and come through in the clutch.

I think you can be a top 5 player, and not have that ability to lead when it counts. LeBron has been top 5 for a few years, and he JUST developed it this year. Dwight doesn't have it yet, and he's top 5.

revgen · by **revgen** on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:12 am

^ Don't forget Dwight also had Gortat in 2009. The best backup center in the league at that time and now a starter for Phoenix. That team was not a "scrub team" no matter how much people like to proclaim it.

However, I don't think Dwight needs to be a closer. Shaq wasn't. But if you can't close, you have to wreak havoc in the first 3 quarters like Shaq would do. The opposing team would be in foul trouble in the 4th, so by the time the ball went to Kobe, Kobe could just go right at the opposing bigs, who had to avoid their 5th and 6th fouls.

Dwight's offensive game isn't on Pau's level, and it's not even on Drew's level either. Expecting him to do what Shaq did in his prime in the first 3 quarters is unreasonable, especially considering that Dwight's 27 years old and has yet to show that level of offensive dominance. We're going to have to pick up offensive talent to surround Dwight like Dwight had in 2009 with Hedo, Rashard, and Nelson, but much more reliable and superior.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:58 am

^^unless we really change how we approach the offense I don't see Howard getting more than 11 or 12 shots a game...... Unless Kobe is finally going to relent on the "I eat first" stuff..... Wreaking Havoc would require 15+ shots I'd suppose at least because of his less that good free throw shooting.

Dwight's offense comes primarily from his freak athleticism. He's added a wrinkle or two but he hasn't progressed like Shaq did in developing a diverse arsenal. He has a couple of fairly effective hooks and a ugly little bank shot that can be effective at times. Where he excels is in a broken play situation on lobs and put-backs....

My best guess, without a revamp of our offense, is that Howard duplicates Andrew's offensive production at about 18 to 20 a game.

revgen · by **revgen** on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:07 am

^I'm talking about when Kobe, Nash, and Pau leave and Dwight becomes our "franchise player" at the ripe young age of 30. Nothing Howard has shown in Orlando indicates that he'll ever be a Shaq type player on the offensive end if he sticks around.

I do agree that he depends heavily on athleticism. He's the Dwayne Wade of big men. Wade is already proclaiming to the media that he's hiring a shooting coach due to his obviously fading athleticism at the age of 30 years old. What's Howard going to do when he's 30? Hire a hook shot and footwork coach? He already had one in Ewing when he played in Orlando and his post-up game is still "elementary" according to JVG. Not a good sign. Dwight's defense will also suffer since he doesn't have the size and length of guys like Mutombo, who was the oldest DPOY ever because he was 7'2 and could still use that size even as he got older and lost a step.

We'll need Mitch to pull out his "magic wand" and get Howard some help via free agency if we're going to keep competing as he gets older.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:37 am

^^Post Kobe/Nash/Pau/MWP our team will need more than just one over good/great player. As you said... Howard will be 30 and probably not the player he has been recently. He's never been a mental leader of his teams so we will need a new "heart of the team" type of player to complement him. We'll have money available but we won't have enough to stack the roster like it is now.....

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:11 pm

#DwightHoward thankful to impart my knowledge to a highly-motivated, gifted, athlete with integrity and focus on the prize - a championship!

Kareems thoughts on Bynum from this:
-not really motivated
-not filled with integrity
-not focused on the prize of a championship

Do you guys agree?

gcclaker · by **gcclaker** on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:20 pm

therealdeal wrote:
#DwightHoward thankful to impart my knowledge to a highly-motivated, gifted, athlete with integrity and focus on the prize - a championship!

Kareem's thoughts on Bynum from this:
-not really motivated
-not filled with integrity
-not focused on the prize of a championship

Do you guys agree?

Not quite... I think Bynum learned so much from Abdul-Jabbar that he is just unable to fully unveil it due to the major injuries he suffered. His overall game grew leaps and bounds from the tutelage. I think the first would be more true BUT that is after experiencing success with rings, visibility and notoriety. Complacency is a natural yet unfortunate aftermath of all Bynum achieved at an early stage. Four years with one person is a long time. I didn't think Bynum's game was going to get better with additional time spent together.

Integrity and focus? Bynum exhibited those dragging an ailing knee through two championship the last one being brutal. He also cheered his teammates while being subbed out during critical moments in both runs. I think his time as a Laker had run its course though he loved the organization and teammates. Bynum just wanted HIS time as the main feature and not being just on a bill.

V.V.V.V.V. · by **V.V.V.V.V.** on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:44 pm

therealdeal wrote:
#DwightHoward thankful to impart my knowledge to a highly-motivated, gifted, athlete with integrity and focus on the prize - a championship!

Kareems thoughts on Bynum from this:
-not really motivated
-not filled with integrity
-not focused on the prize of a championship

Do you guys agree?

I agree that it sounds like an underhanded jab at Bynum. But I'd also agree that Bynum did the best he could with the Lakers, at least during the championship runs. It seemed to me that he checked out because of his lack of respect for Mike Brown, and was happy to go to another team with a) a decent coach and b) him as the first option.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:17 am

I think that Kareem is probably a little bitter that Bynum thought he didn't need him anymore. I think that's a major reason why he jabbed at Bynum.

As for Bynum leaving, I think it was just time. Bynum definitely seemed uninterested in the game at times and I think he was just ready to move on. I think he gave it his all every season he played up until 2011/2012, and even in that season we got him at about 90% most of the time.

dj vitus · by **dj vitus** on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:34 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^Post Kobe/Nash/Pau/MWP our team will need more than just one over good/great player. As you said... Howard will be 30 and probably not the player he has been recently. He's never been a mental leader of his teams so we will need a new "heart of the team" type of player to complement him. We'll have money available but we won't have enough to stack the roster like it is now.....

Easy. Rondo/KLove 2015. :jam2:

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm

dj vitus wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Post Kobe/Nash/Pau/MWP our team will need more than just one over good/great player. As you said... Howard will be 30 and probably not the player he has been recently. He's never been a mental leader of his teams so we will need a new "heart of the team" type of player to complement him. We'll have money available but we won't have enough to stack the roster like it is now.....

Easy. Rondo/KLove 2015.

I'd take Rondo for sure..... I've always thought he's the most effective two-way point guard in the game.... Love isn't going anywhere I'm afraid.... Could we sign two "max" deals with Howard's inevitable Max deal?....

dj vitus · by **dj vitus** on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:24 pm

^^ Max deals are just so rare. More likely scenario would be giving a max to Rondo, then having Kahn give in to KLove's trade demands after getting KO'd in the 1st round for three straight years.

KLove takes his 2016 player option, comes to us in a s&t, and we send them a hot pile of draft picks and expirings. 2012 off-season all over again. Me like.

bystander · by **bystander** on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:17 am

LOL the first thing i thought after reading KAJ was how he was throwing Drew under the bus. No question. I think it's pretty fair to say KAJ doesn't forgive easily and he has a very high self-esteem.

V.V.V.V.V. · by **V.V.V.V.V.** on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:13 pm

I feel for the Cap. He's arguably the greatest center ever and relative scrubs like Bynum and the Kandiman tune him out.

thkthebest · by **thkthebest** on Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:26 am

You guys would throw the max contract at Rondo? :man3:

Rondo's going to be 29 going on 30 that season. I'm sure there are better options than throwing the max contract on 29/30 year old Rondo. It's not even the spacing problem. The Rondo/Dwight pnr would be pretty bad. The Lakers would be atrocious in FT% (probably last in the league) with Rondo (the worst FT shooting guard) and Dwight (the worst FT shooting center) to lead the way. Turnovers would be another issue too.

At least, Love would make sense. Maybe Mitch can pull something off there.

Congo Cash · by **Congo Cash** on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:33 am

Rondo doesn't deserve a max contract until he learns to shoot a freethrow, let alone a jumpshot...

Kou · by **Kou** on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:23 pm

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:I feel for the Cap. He's arguably the greatest player ever and relative scrubs like Bynum and the Kandiman tune him out.

Fixed.

Andrew Bynum Discussion: Out for the season, 2x knee surgery

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