Basketball Evolution

Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby LooN3y on Sat May 17, 2014 12:40 pm

CPFlop choked hard, just like he ALWAYS does.

i wasnt surprised, thats why when he was traded to the lakers, i thought it was a good fit, not perfect but good.

CP3 can grind out the reg season, take the bulk of the load of the older kobe. of course kobe will get his during this time, but i feel like itll keep him fresh rather than exhausting him and playing him 35+ mins.

especially since CP3 clearly needs a clutch scorer to compliment him. its just a fact dude choked like this when he was on the hornets, dude choked like this every year since he got to LA.


and lol at the clippers fan trying to actually defend flopping
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Sat May 17, 2014 1:18 pm

choked when he was on the hornets?
he made the hornets overachievers

peja, tyson, david west

i mean, do you really expect that kind of team to go to the conference finals or finals?
the depth of that team was super weak
they did well in the regular season by playing starters heavy minutes. when it comes to playoffs, you have to have contributions from the bench. the hornets relied heavily on the starters to do everything, and that just isn't enough. it's really not much different than the warriors this year. heavy minutes on starters with terrible bench production.

every great team has clutch scorers next to stars - some of the lakers biggest moments came from horry and fisher.
great pgs like tony parker still have solid go to guys. stars are what get you to the playoffs, but to win a championship, you still need depth with contributions from your role players and bench.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sat May 17, 2014 7:06 pm

So....

Peja... was on teams that went to the WC Finals.... but he sucks and isn't worth squat as a teammate and was made by CP3... Doug Christy must have been above Magic then....

West... Scrub without CP3.... So what is Biff without him then?

Chandler.... played his best ball away from CP3 and was a very big part of a championship.... again... away from CP3

Let's see.... that team won just one fewer game than the Lakers one year... yet our team went all the way two the finals. One regular season win away from the WC Champ .... Yeah.... they sucked. :man10: :man10:

Just how good do his teammates have to be? This is the same Howard argument all over again... CP3 is a flawed player.... not fundamentally.... he's great there. Where he's flawed in is his attitude and his personal type of "leadership". If he ever plays the game the way he plays the system/refs he might actually inspire someone to follow him. If you search YouTube on him you find compilations of sick crossovers and flops...... If you do that for Kobe or LeBron or Duncan you find game winners.

His talent isn't in question... it's his overall persona and attitude that is IMHO. Losing didn't even seem to effect him that much in the post game interviews. Compare that with the death stare from Kobe or what Duncan looks like after a crushing defeat.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby John3:16 on Sat May 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Westbrook >>> CP3

Fact.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Sat May 17, 2014 8:46 pm

Rooscooter wrote:So....
Peja... was on teams that went to the WC Finals.... but he sucks and isn't worth squat as a teammate and was made by CP3... Doug Christy must have been above Magic then....

peja was already past his prime by the time he got to the hornets
he went to the WCF in 2002 early in his career
ray allen is on the heat, but he's clearly a role player at this point in his career despite all his previous accolades. like, do you not understand context? or do you think the lakers w karl malone, gary payton, kobe, and shaq is like the greatest lineup ever made just because of their names on paper?

West... Scrub without CP3.... So what is Biff without him then?

Chandler.... played his best ball away from CP3 and was a very big part of a championship.... again... away from CP3

west and chandler aren't enough when you're going against teams like tony parker, tim duncan, manu ginobili whom are still going to the WCF 6 years later and these players are far removed from their primes. you're out of your mind if you think west and chandler and an old peja is good enough to go against the spurs back in 2008. chandler didn't win until he was on a team with DIRK who is levels above west. west has nothing on dirk.

you're out of your mind if you think the hornets weren't over matched. that team was clearly overachieving. regular season records are about not losing the easy games. it doesn't necessarily reflect the ceiling of your performance.

Just how good do his teammates have to be? This is the same Howard argument all over again...
clippers lost because they can't play defense, not because they can't put up points on the scoreboard. keep harping about cp3 when his team dropped over 100 pts on okc regularly. you still think offense is the issue? really? not defensive stops? if you don't recognize defense as the weakest link for the clippers, you are delusional.

stars take you to the playoffs, but stars alone can't win you championships. you seriously cannot be this ignorant about how championship teams are built.

depth and role players help you win championships - the championships that were close had pivotal moments clutched by role players. ray allen's historic corner 3 last year (don't even try to argue that he's AS caliber right now), jason terry going bananas against the heat, haslem and gary payton nailing clutch shots down the line when they beat the mavs...talk about stars all you want but every great superstar like kobe duncan and jordan had guys like kerr, fisher, and horry to help put rings on their fingers.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sat May 17, 2014 8:56 pm

Not ignorant at all..... I just see irrationality where I see it.

This Clippers team is deep, diverse and well coached. They last right exactly where all other Chris Paul teams lose..... even those "overmatched" ones.....

You like Paul.... Fine by me. You'll defend him against any legitimate criticism because he appears to be your favorite player. Great..... good for you.

.... Like I said.... when is a team deep enough.... or diverse enough.... or well coached enough for him? Who does he need to play with?
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Sun May 18, 2014 9:54 am

legitimate criticism?
X player has a team that is 3rd best in his conference and isn't even top 3 in odds to win the championship, yet it is his fault entirely that his team does not advance in the playoffs.

your criticisms will be legitimate when you set reasonable expectations. clippers were 8:1 odds to win the championship before the okc matchup, and you talk about them like they were the favorites or like they were supposed to win. you might as well harp on steph curry as being overrated for getting bounced despite being a much lower seed. dirk is overrated, he got eliminated in the first round am i right? the clippers losing to okc was expected. to say cp3 is overrated is like betting on 8:1 odds then complaining about losing. you have to realize that it's a longshot. the clippers chances of even contending for the championship were slim. you might as well be criticizing dirk for not getting out of the first round this year.

not everybody can win. jordan, shaq, kobe, duncan, parker, and now lebron and KD will be huge reasons of why a lot of great players will be denied championships. the lack of championships doesn't mean these players are less great. championships are about timing and having the right pieces.

i already told you what the clippers need. when they play better defensively, they will have a much better shot at winning.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun May 18, 2014 10:30 am

^^Why do you suppose that Vegas put them at 8:1? Their leader's past history in the playoffs perhaps? ....

The Clippers need new players for CP3 to win.... if he doesn't win then he's still "Great" because not all "Great" players win. Nice circular argument. You can't lose that one..... :man10:

Listen.... the NBA and fans have put CP3 up there with the guys you list as Champions so when he fails over and over agin it's the expectations that are wrong..... Quit saying he's a "Superstar" and this great leader with a heart of a lion and the criticism will go away because what's being criticized isn't the fact that he's a good player it's the expectations that he's one of the greatest in the game currently..... which just isn't the case.... he's entertaining to watch for some and he puts up great stats for the NBA's 3rd largest revenue source... Fantasy Basketball but in the real game he's not a leader.... not a difference maker against other difference makers and not in the same league with the all time greats.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby LooN3y on Mon May 19, 2014 10:55 am

Oh, Come on.

what does not having a deep team like his clippers team have to do with choking?


dude made multiple bad plays in a row in the 08 series against the nuggets, and gave up a game before the series ENDED. in the elimination game it just wasnt the same, sound familiar?


anyways, comparing that hornets team with the spurs and mavs is a joke. first of all nobody thought the mavs were going to take it all in 11, Yes they always hung around the top 5 seeds in the WC for the past years but nobody thought they were gonna take it. of course its the playoffs so you cant count out the possibility but come on.

Same goes with the spurs, people were already crossing san antonio out by the time we won in 09. saying they were too old, duncans about to retire, giniboli is glass ( he was marred by quite a few injuries at that time) but of course that wasnt the case, but nobody thought they were gonna be consistent contenders in the future. like the like the mavs, they always hung around but were never favorites to were win AT THAT TIME.


hell if Nash took his crappy suns team to the WCF, everyone was expecting CPFlop to make some noise, but he never did.


the man gives up, and his hornets teams weren't any worse than nash's suns teams that made it to the WCF.


and according to lets go lakers, CP3 is the best PG of all time, seems like hes coming up short in the playoffs for an all time best PG.


people saying clippers had a slim chance of winning the championship? lol im not saying particularly you halekulani,


but it sounds a lot like lebron stans after he couldnt win in cleveland "oh he didnt have a team" "he didnt have enough help"

but what was said during the season and post seasons before it all ended? "theyre the best team in basketball" "theyre favorites" "theyre a deep team" "Contenders"

it just feels like a similar scenario

edit: sorry for the horrible structure, i was in a hurry
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Mon May 19, 2014 11:24 am

^^Structure sucked……

….. content made up for it and then some……. :man1:
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby lakerfan2 on Mon May 19, 2014 12:22 pm

The Clippers couldn't be designed any better around CP3.

You have a ball dominant point guard who have great target big men in a pick and roll and finish. You have legitimate three point threats around the perimeter to space the floor. You have a supporting bench with a 6th man to carry the load while you rest.

Yet...the team is still not talented enough.

Tell me, what more does this team need? A Lebron? A Howard?

You put a Lebron/Durant type player on this team you get the Thunder. Two perimeter heavy players with not enough ball to go around. CP3 would be relinquished to a spot up shooter (See: Steve Nash on the Lakers).

I don't get a sense of confidence from him. I don't get a sense of poise from him. He'll make clutch shots, he'll make dazzling plays, but he's not one to play in the moment and focus in on the real goal, instead, he's flopping around and complaining to the refs. As the supposed "leader" of his team, his terrible attitude is his downfall. Sure he's friendly, he's a great guy, but that doesn't win games. Complaining to the refs, flailing around, that's gone around the Clippers like an STD.

When you don't have structure and balance from your leader when the team needs it most, your TEAM isn't going anywhere.

Lillard - he has the heart of a winner. He doesn't back down. He doesn't complain. He goes about his game and fights through adversity. He gets better. His game maturity level is so much further than Chris Paul's, it's laughable. His teammates benefit off his confidence despite him needing to "assist" anyone. His play elevates his teammates play. I can't say that about CP3 at all.

I'm saying it again, if I had to choose to start a team around Lillard or Paul, I'd choose Lillard all day.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 19, 2014 1:01 pm

You want to know what the perfect team would have been for Paul?

Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Defensive Athletic SF
PF With Shooting Ability
Dwight Howard If He Accepted His Role

Chris (and Dwight) needs a guy like Kobe who can be make the big shot and can score from the perimeter at will. Without that guy, the responsibility falls on Chris and that's not his strong suit. He's a passer, not a scorer. Dwight is a rebounder and shot blocker, not a scorer. I'll always hate Stern for killing this potential team (even though Dwight himself might have killed it), but that formula was really great for all 3 guys.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Mon May 19, 2014 1:09 pm

No way Paul and Kobe co-exist well…. Paul is nearly worthless off the ball and Kobe is diminished considerably as well.

If Howard didn't think he was getting the ball enough with Nash/Kobe why would it be better with Paul?

This is the same argument made when Nash came here……… ball dominant 6' tall PG's have value when the ball is in their hands….. not as spot up shooters in the corner or trying to set a screen off the ball.

Now…. replace Paul with Rondo and you've got a PG who can play a role off the ball and who's success isn't predicated on having the ball in his hands so much.

Rondo in a role where he has to score consistently is a mistake but beside a guy like Kobe and with a clown like Howard he would get the best out of both.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 19, 2014 1:13 pm

Again, it's an ideal world scenario. Especially the Howard aspect. He proved that he's too much of a loser to accept the reality of his situation. A better fit probably would have just been DeAndre Jordan or some other such rim protector with no brain. Maybe a Tyson Chandler would be the best fit.

As for Paul and Kobe, I disagree. I think they'd coexist just fine. Kobe's never had trouble in All-Star games with him or on the Olympic team with ball dominant guards. The two respect each other so they'd find ways to make it work. Paul would average less points I'm sure and Kobe would average less assists.

Paul/Kobe/Defenders and Rim protectors would be a top team in the West for sure.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Mon May 19, 2014 1:22 pm

Rooscooter wrote:The Clippers need new players for CP3 to win.... if he doesn't win then he's still "Great" because not all "Great" players win. Nice circular argument. You can't lose that one..... :man10:


about as circular as saying you can't win a ring if your pg is the best player on the team/pg is ball dominant then expecting cp3 to do exactly the opposite.

we would both agree that it is a terrible plan to have your pg as the best player on the team and rely on him to do everything/aka be ball dominant. and you applaud yourself for stretches where you see the other clipper players step up in pivotal moments. and if the supporting cast could continue to do that, and clips end up winning a ring, cp3 would have played the exact role that you envisioned a championship pg to play. he would be among top pgs such as billups and parker. unfortunately, it's a catch 22. he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. if he tries and fails, he's unclutch. and like when lebron received so much criticism, if the best player on the team doesn't have the ball in his hands, his drive will be attacked as a lack of killer instinct or disappearing in clutch moments.

at the end of the day, the clippers didn't have that cast to push them to the next level. clippers defense was weak going in, and this series showed it.

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the topic isn't about paul choking
the topic is about paul as a franchise player. there's no point to respond to like anything you wrote since nobody is denying that he broke down at the end of game 5.

bron's cleveland teams were favorites to win? ROFL. 12:1 series odds vs the spurs.


magic tragic johnson
lebron getting swept in 2007
shaq getting beat so bad by hakeem he cried
spurs losing last year, basically one of the biggest chokes of all time.
tony parker going 9-35 in the last two games
dirk losing after a 2-0 lead to the heat and dwhistle

this is just another adversity. i can only hope that paul wins a championship to see how quickly the script flips.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby gcclaker on Mon May 19, 2014 1:35 pm

The Clipper defense as of the present should be decent or above average at best with Barnes, Jordan and Paul being the standouts. Griffin is still learning. And Rivers has been lauded as defensive minded coach.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Mon May 19, 2014 1:37 pm

clippers defense is about as championship caliber as the trailblazers. i didn't have either team going to the WCF bc neither team could play defense, and it showed.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Mon May 19, 2014 1:41 pm

lakerfan2 wrote: His [Lillard] play elevates his teammates play. I can't say that about CP3 at all.

at all

at. all.

paul offers nothing AT ALL for his teammates?
you can't be serious. i mean, even if you're being facetious, you inherently know there's no way that you could actually defend that.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby lakerfan2 on Mon May 19, 2014 1:53 pm

Given the context of that paragraph, I was stating mentally improving his team.

Chris Paul is a fantastic player. He sets everyone up in the right places, he makes great plays.

But in terms of a leader, I don't think he has it. He didn't do it with New Orleans, I don't see him getting the best out of Blake, who could honestly be a lot better. I don't see CP3 instilling confidence in Blake. I don't see CP3 going to Blake down the stretch. Big time players go down and make a play and will their team to victory. No words needed.

Instead, he's complaining on calls. Flopping, trash talking, and whatever. That's what you want from a leader. I don't care how good he is, that sort of MENTALITY isn't going to cut it.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon May 19, 2014 8:04 pm

The people bashing Paul have every right to do so given his historical choke job in game 5. The amazing basketball he played up until that point was rendered irrelevant in those 50 seconds of game 5 in most people's eyes. They won't remember his 8/9 from 3 point land in game 1 or a stretch where he had 36 assists and 2 turnovers or his great play on both ends. Most people will only remember those 50 seconds. And Paul has no one to blame but himself because he simply choked.

But his career is still in progress. He will be 30 next year which means he's got about 3-4 prime years left. And the Clips do have a good thing going right now. They are close. They need to upgrade the SF position and get another solid big. Assuming Doc upgrades the team and Paul has a top shelf team for the next few years and continues to get bounced early, it will be hard to defend him. His greatness and impact can't be questioned but he's got to have some serious playoff runs or his legacy will suffer.

So what I'm saying is you can't judge the guy until it's all said and done because he's got a lot of basketball left. Only when it's all said and done can you judge him.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby John3:16 on Mon May 19, 2014 10:34 pm

^^^ we judge every other active player. Why can't we judge CP3?
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Doc Brown on Tue May 20, 2014 8:26 am

When you are the greatest PG since Magic and are considered to be one of the greatest players of all time (He is not), your career is defined by what you do when the game is on the line and it's win or go home.

That just comes with the territory. Lebron most recently has been killed for it and rose to the challenge and until CP3 does the same, he's just another playoff choker that puts up stats.

That's the truth.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue May 20, 2014 12:44 pm

Doc Brown wrote:When you are the greatest PG since Magic and are considered to be one of the greatest players of all time (He is not), your career is defined by what you do when the game is on the line and it's win or go home.

That just comes with the territory. Lebron most recently has been killed for it and rose to the challenge and until CP3 does the same, he's just another playoff choker that puts up stats.

That's the truth.


Like I said, if he continues to exit in the 2nd round despite having an elite team for the next 5 years, then his legacy will suffer. And all of the criticism against him will hold a lot of weight.

KG didn't win his ring until he was 33. Dirk didn't get his ring until he was 33. Both were seen as playoff failures and chokers, especially Dirk, prior to winning it all. Kobe didn't get his as "the man" until he was 31. Jordan didn't win his first ring until he was 28 and won his last ring at 35. Paul just turned 29 and will be 30 next year. He's got 3-4 prime years left with the possibility of more. And he's got a stacked team. We have to see what he does in the next 5 years to properly evaluate his legacy.

And let me clarify, evaluating a player's skillset is completely different from evaluating someone's legacy. The former can be done at any point in time while the latter requires the player's career to be completed. You guys are talking about his legacy and that's not fair because his prime years are coming up. Only when it's complete can we properly judge his legacy.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue May 20, 2014 12:54 pm

And I know this will sort of come across as an excuse but Paul happened to play in the wrong conference. And outside from this year, he really never had a team that was expected to do much. Yeah, in 2008, when he was 2nd in the MVP voting and his team had the 2nd best record behind the Lakers, you can say they should've done more but did anyone actually expect them to beat the Lakers or Spurs in a 7 game series? They overachieved and CP3 was the main reason.

This was the first year were he actually had a team that could've competed with almost anyone. Prior to this year, I don't see how people can be so harsh on his playoff failures given the obvious situations. The WC was ultra tough and he never really had an elite team. Going up against Popovich and PJ in the playoffs? Who did he really have? Chandler? West? Those guys are good pieces, not the #2 man on a championship team. I would say those guys can be the 3rd piece in the championship team, not the #2 guys.

Again, I know it comes across as an excuse but basketball is the easiest sport to predict in terms of who wins it all. Even before the season starts, we already know the 4-5 teams that will win a ring and everyone else has no chance. Sure, there are exceptions like 2006 Heat or 2011 Mavs but this holds true most of the time. Paul never had an elite team that was supposed to seriously compete outside of this year. And for the next few years, I think he will have an elite team so if he falters, there will be no excuse.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Doc Brown on Tue May 20, 2014 1:19 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote: Kobe didn't get his as "the man" until he was 31.



I stopped reading here.....

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