Basketball Evolution

Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:39 am

Here's why guys like Chris Paul are bad for the game.....




Kids copying his crap antics and parents cheering them on..... :hurl:

Paul's new endorsement career should be to still represent insurance companies but instead of the "assist" the theme should be on fraud......
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:02 am

The kid must have studied this video at the 1:56 mark.....

....and proof of the evolution of the game based on Paul's crap is at the very end..... even video games are flopping now....

"If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it" Thomas Sowell
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby halekulani on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:09 am

any great player will do anything to get an edge to win
jordan
magic
bird
80s pistons

chris paul isn't any different. he just wants an edge to win.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby abeer3 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:59 am

it's an interesting argument. personally, I believe in sportsmanship. doing anything within the context of the game to win.

what paul does isn't. at least he's an elite basketball talent, though. guys like harden annoy me more, as they'd be second tier players without all the fakery. cp would still be a superstar.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:20 pm

Excuses for Paul and invoking names like Jordan?!.... yikes. Not sure those two are even in the same zip code much less conversation. Besides that.... put up a highlight of Jordan flopping with 40 seconds left in a tied playoff game (in the video I posted) and I'll be with ya.

The mentality of a guy like Paul to premeditatedly and purposefully put his team's fate in the hands of the officials is what I think separates him from being a true leader. That play against Denver in there where he falls down at the 3 point line when Afflalo closes out after going over the screen is a complete mental collapse in a tie game with 40 seconds left. He immediately started going off on the official and then at his teammates during the timeout when he was challenged by them. Same stuff he's done against SA the last two playoffs as well. His idea of being a close out player is to run into someone and fall down. Those other names NEVER put the game entirely in the hands of the officials as a strategy...... Never. You don't understand who Larry Bird was if for a second you think he'd do anything like Paul. Not in his DNA.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:10 pm

I'm sorry but this thread is just sad and ignorant. Ignorant is the key word here. I have watched about 95% of every Clipper game since Paul got here and 99.99% of the time, he plays the game the right way with no attemps to flop. Same with Blake. Every player flops once in a while, for whatever reason, to try to get a call. It's part of the game. Mj did it. Magic did it. Bird did it. Pretty much every player has done it at some point.

It's just sad to see these videos of Paul because it's based on ignorance. Because if you watched all of his games, you would know that's not the case. Oh well, some people just need to be negative.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:29 pm

I would respectively disagree. Some players try too hard to base their games on foul calls. Wade, Harden, and Paul all come to mind. The problem is that the refs can be fickle, and stop making calls for you during the game, especially a playoff game. Harden saw that in the finals with OKC, where he couldn't buy a call. Wade saw that in the finals against the Mavs the second time, where it didn't work like the first time, and Paul saw it against Memphis a couple years back.

Every good player milks the refs. But when you need a score at the end of a playoff game, they don't look to the refs to bail them out. They rise to the occasion and make the winning play.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:32 pm

I will admit that flopping is a bigger part of the game than ever before but that's the fault of the league and the soft rules it has continued to implement. Given the fact that the refs pretty much call anything a foul, there are incentives for players to flop to get the two free throws. If the league was more neutral in calling fouls and let some plays go, players would be flopping less. The flopping is a product of league rules.

And I would add that no one flops as much as Harden. I mean I have seen maybe 10 Rockets games this year and have seen him flop multiple times. It's truely a part of his game.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:45 pm

So it's the leagues fault Chris Paul jumps in front of Cousins and jumps around like he's been shot.... And my post is ignorant.... Riiiiiight.

You have already exposed yourself as a Clippers Fan and someone who will argue anything to support Paul.

The point in time when your best player decides to fall on the floor with 40 seconds left in a freaking playoff game instead of trying to win the game against his opponents is the where I make a judgement aside from stats, sick crossovers and that cute little face and call him what he is.... a premeditated cheater. If I had played with a guy who would jeopardize my team's chances with that crap there would be unrest in the locker room....

I don't see Harden and Wade the same way. Yes they both play to the officials a lot but I've not seen either of them basically fall on the ground in a tie game rather than try and make a basket ball move. There is a difference in mentality here that is my point. Harden will jump into someone as will Wade... but they are still trying to make a shot or a pass. Paul does it, as you can see, with no other intention than to draw a foul.
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it" Thomas Sowell
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:53 pm

Rooscooter wrote:So it's the leagues fault Chris Paul jumps in front of Cousins and jumps around like he's been shot.... And my post is ignorant.... Riiiiiight.

You have already exposed yourself as a Clippers Fan and someone who will argue anything to support Paul.

The point in time when your best player decides to fall on the floor with 40 seconds left in a freaking playoff game instead of trying to win the game against his opponents is the where I make a judgement aside from stats, sick crossovers and that cute little face and call him what he is.... a premeditated cheater. If I had played with a guy who would jeopardize my team's chances with that crap there would be unrest in the locker room....

I don't see Harden and Wade the same way. Yes they both play to the officials a lot but I've not seen either of them basically fall on the ground in a tie game rather than try and make a basket ball move. There is a difference in mentality here that is my point. Harden will jump into someone as will Wade... but they are still trying to make a shot or a pass. Paul does it, as you can see, with no other intention than to draw a foul.


Just because I am a fan of a particular team doesn't mean I can't be objective in my assessment of the players on this team.

And you are talking about one play. One play. Geez man, admit it. Most of your hate for the guy stems from watching these youtube vids made by other Paul haters. Anyone can make a video of any star and their collection of flop attempts. I can make a video of Lebron and try to show that he's a bad player by showing a collection of all of his bad plays. Like I said, if you have actually watched him play every night, you would not think the way you did because you know it's not true.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:04 pm

^^Your ignorant assumption is that I don't watch Paul and you do. I've seen him live 4 times this year.... watched part or most of the Clipper games as well. I watch a lot of players in this league play on a nightly basis.

Too just pass this off as a single play and a "hate" I supposedly have for Paul is just about the most ignorant thing in this thread save your insinuation that the league is making him do it.

If you have watched the Clipper as much as you say you have you are now a liar as well. To say that you have watched them 95% of the time and that 99.99% of the time he doesn't flop is a flat out untruth. You know it too.

Paul's flopping is a large part of his game. Objective analysis shows that. The final plays of his season the last 2 years show it.... that play in Denver shows it..... the crap with Cousins shows it..... the play where he jumps under Joe Johnson while he's shooting a layup shows it (and it very dangerous as well)..... There are about 20 mixes of Paul flopping on the internet..... each with very little overlap btw. It's hard to find that many different Kobe dunks on youtube...... so the idea that its a few plays is also ignorant.

Finally, you said the entire premiss of this thread is ignorant. Let's see. You once smugly told me that the NBA in the 90's was sooooooo much better than the earlier eras based on the kids being able to see good basketball and be inspired to copy the Pros..... lets forget that your timeline was a decade too short but thats for another thread. Your premiss was so strong in your opinion that you made very strong statements about it. OK.... I show a flop by a 10 year old..... parents cheering. Who influenced him?.... oh yeah.... the League!
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it" Thomas Sowell
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby laakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:13 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Too just pass this off as a single play and a "hate" I supposedly have for Paul is just about the most ignorant thing in this thread save your insinuation that the league is making him do it.

OK.... I show a flop by a 10 year old..... parents cheering. Who influenced him?.... oh yeah.... the League!


You're contradicting yourself, and that's because Paul's flopping isn't just his personality, it is also the league letting him do that. He was ALSO influenced by the league, just as the 10-year-old is. The softer foul calls make it so that a player like Paul can flop. If the refs never called Paul's flops in favor of him, he would never flop because he earns no benefit from it. Sure, Paul's flopping is bad for the game, but it's the game that allows him to do that. So it goes in both directions.

To say that Chris Paul is bad for the game is ignorant. He's a huge talent and I'm sure a ton of kids are learning great things from him. It's a combination of one SMALL, and I repeat SMALL aspect of his game and some rules that are in place in the NBA that are detrimental.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby abeer3 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:18 pm

Rooscooter wrote:I don't see Harden and Wade the same way. Yes they both play to the officials a lot but I've not seen either of them basically fall on the ground in a tie game rather than try and make a basket ball move. There is a difference in mentality here that is my point. Harden will jump into someone as will Wade... but they are still trying to make a shot or a pass. Paul does it, as you can see, with no other intention than to draw a foul.


ehhhhh, then you're not watching? harden looks for fouls first almost every time he goes to the basket. it's pathetic--and an indictment of the league--that he's considered a star. in terms of evolution of basketball, harden's a regression. no off hand, no midrange game to speak of, no defense, but I'm supposed to think he's awesome. again, at least paul can do some really impressive things without the refs. harden does very little without them, same with wade.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:21 pm

laakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Too just pass this off as a single play and a "hate" I supposedly have for Paul is just about the most ignorant thing in this thread save your insinuation that the league is making him do it.

OK.... I show a flop by a 10 year old..... parents cheering. Who influenced him?.... oh yeah.... the League!


You're contradicting yourself, and that's because Paul's flopping isn't just his personality, it is also the league letting him do that. He was ALSO influenced by the league, just as the 10-year-old is. The softer foul calls make it so that a player like Paul can flop. If the refs never called Paul's flops in favor of him, he would never flop because he earns no benefit from it. Sure, Paul's flopping is bad for the game, but it's the game that allows him to do that. So it goes in both directions.

To say that Chris Paul is bad for the game is ignorant. He's a huge talent and I'm sure a ton of kids are learning great things from him. It's a combination of one SMALL, and I repeat SMALL aspect of his game and some rules that are in place in the NBA that are detrimental.


You're jumping in on a post to someone else about a back and forth we had a few weeks ago..... trust me... it's relevant in that context.

As for Paul... if you want to think that the league somehow puts into his mind that the best way to win a close game is to fall on the floor 2 feet from the nearest player then so be it.... jumping under a person shooting a layup is all because of "soft fouls" and that feigning like you were punched by Cousins is Stern's fault then I can't do much to convince anyone who would believe that.

.... the NCAA must be in on the conspiracy as well...... search Paul Flopping in College....
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it" Thomas Sowell
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:43 pm

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:I don't see Harden and Wade the same way. Yes they both play to the officials a lot but I've not seen either of them basically fall on the ground in a tie game rather than try and make a basket ball move. There is a difference in mentality here that is my point. Harden will jump into someone as will Wade... but they are still trying to make a shot or a pass. Paul does it, as you can see, with no other intention than to draw a foul.


ehhhhh, then you're not watching? harden looks for fouls first almost every time he goes to the basket. it's pathetic--and an indictment of the league--that he's considered a star. in terms of evolution of basketball, harden's a regression. no off hand, no midrange game to speak of, no defense, but I'm supposed to think he's awesome. again, at least paul can do some really impressive things without the refs. harden does very little without them, same with wade.


You missed the rest of what I said. At leas Harden attempts a shot when he does it. That doesn't mean he isn't looking for a cheap call. What it means is that he's looking for it AND a shot. Paul, oftentimes, doesn't. He just falls down or fakes being hit.... or throws his arms up. I agree that Harden is not great or even as good as Paul but I'm not talking about talent, stats or highlights or any of that stuff..... what I'm talking about is the flat out attempts to have the game decided by the officials.

I'm not really sure how anyone can defend Paul and say he doesn't do it. It's like an argument with a kid now.... oh...oh... he did it... so it's OK or it everyones fault.....

I can separate Paul's talent from his mental approach to the game. He's a very good PG. With that said I thank Stern every night that he isn't a Laker because of his mental approach to the game.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby abeer3 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:02 pm

oh, I'm not defending paul. I just think he has game beyond the refs. harden and wade...less so.

and I strongly disagree on thanking stern. that veto set the lakers back a decade, for several reasons. probably one of the biggest impact basketball events in my lifetime.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:17 pm

abeer3 wrote:oh, I'm not defending paul. I just think he has game beyond the refs. harden and wade...less so.

and I strongly disagree on thanking stern. that veto set the lakers back a decade, for several reasons. probably one of the biggest impact basketball events in my lifetime.


Well..... watching Paul lead us to playoff disappointment or missing the playoffs entirely.... to me it if isn't a championship or a team I can feel good about cheering for it's little different. The Paul nixed trade just sped up the inevitable IMO. Howard and Paul don't magically change the facts about their character just because they play together or in a Laker Uni.... doesn't work that way.
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby laakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:02 pm

Roo, you're completely missing the point. YES, Chris Paul flops, consciously. YES, the NBA has also implemented rules making it easier for players to flop, consciously. These things go hand-in-hand. We can only blame Paul for flopping, we can't blame him for getting away with it.

That's why I think it's unfair to place all the blame on Paul for seeing things like a 10 year old flopping like that. It's the combination of many things.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:31 pm

laakers wrote:Roo, you're completely missing the point. YES, Chris Paul flops, consciously. YES, the NBA has also implemented rules making it easier for players to flop, consciously. These things go hand-in-hand. We can only blame Paul for flopping, we can't blame him for getting away with it.

That's why I think it's unfair to place all the blame on Paul for seeing things like a 10 year old flopping like that. It's the combination of many things.


The league made flopping a point of emphasis last year.... everyone but the "stars" got fined or reprimanded for it. That is the only way I believe the league is in this.

Flops were always there but there was typically contact and then an act. Paul has taken it to a level where he creates the contact by design....not as a result of the normal course of play.

I can see where letting guys get away with the first type can maybe get worse but what Paul does has nothing to do with that IMO. He's taken it to a new level.

Take a look at the play with Cousins.... tell me that you've seen another player EVER do something like that. This year's injury was an attempted flop in fact.

I'm not sure how you guys can look beyond that and still see a guy you'd want on our team or even admire..... regardless of talent.
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby laakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:42 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
The league made flopping a point of emphasis last year.... everyone but the "stars" got fined or reprimanded for it. That is the only way I believe the league is in this.


That may be true, but last year wasn't the first year flopping has been around, you know that better than I do. Flopping is detrimental to the game, and has been around for years - a "point of emphasis" doesn't do much.

Flops were always there but there was typically contact and then an act. Paul has taken it to a level where he creates the contact by design....not as a result of the normal course of play.

Take a look at the play with Cousins.... tell me that you've seen another player EVER do something like that.


Agreed.

I can see where letting guys get away with the first type can maybe get worse but what Paul does has nothing to do with that IMO. He's taken it to a new level.


The thing is, guys first started to get away with the first type, and then people like Paul occasionally take it to the next level. Paul is simply a result of what he saw growing up, and he took it to a new level. It's definitely negatively affected the game.

But like I said, a "point of emphasis" in the NBA isn't what has to be done. It's deeper than that, it's the evolution of basketball! He was just trying to get an edge, and kind of messed up... morally? I don't know, but fixing this is gonna have to go deep.

I'm not sure how you guys can look beyond that and still see a guy you'd want on our team or even admire..... regardless of talent.


And that's the sad part, if he never is successful because of things like this, what a waste of talent :\

But I guess that's how basketball/the NBA is designed... Only the best of the best succeed? Survival of the fittest, :man10:
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:43 pm

CP3 has changed the entire culture of the Clips. As everyone knows, they were THE worst franchise in sports history before his arrival. Once he got here, there was a snowball effect in that it immediately gave this franchise credibility and made it much more appealing for other vets to sign here, something that would've been unheard of before his arrival. Stern screwed the Lakers over, nothing more, nothing less. He would've been so beloved here as a Laker. Why? Because the guy actually has game and can actually play the game at a level that only a handful can approach. His play would've mesmerized Lakers fans every night at Staples.

As for the flopping stuff, if it makes you sleep beteer at night tinking that he is some flopping machine, all power to ya.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:48 pm

abeer3 wrote:oh, I'm not defending paul. I just think he has game beyond the refs. harden and wade...less so.

and I strongly disagree on thanking stern. that veto set the lakers back a decade, for several reasons. probably one of the biggest impact basketball events in my lifetime.


Wade is one of the most skilled 2 guards I have ever seen. His game is so smooth. Nothing he does is herky jerky. Just smooth. His ability to break down a D is amazing. He flops but he's not even in the same ball park as Harden. Harden's whole game is about getting to the basket and trying to draw contact. Don't get me wrong, the guy is very skilled player and has the rare ability to break down a defense and consistently get to the rack but a big part of his game is also trying to draw contact in tje process. He purposely looks to draw contact.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby trodgers on Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:56 am

I think Harden is the most egregious from what I've seen. Paul is really bad, worse than Wade, but Harden takes the cake.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:20 am

^^Harden is probably the best (worst) at trying to draw fouls on the way to the hoop. My point is that he does that within the flow of the game and will the ball in his hands making a "basketball move".

Paul's crap has nothing to do with "basketball moves" as he'll run under guys, fall to the floor or pull the crap like the example above with Cousins that are not attempts to make a shot, a pass or screen…. they are for the express purpose of tricking the officials. They have nothing to do with basketball.

Another difference I see in Harden and Paul is that Harden or Wade, with the game on the line, will attempt to draw a foul to aid their cause but do it trying to actually make a shot. Paul will just throw himself into people with the only option for his team being a foul or not a foul. Oftentimes there is no shot available to him.

2 years ago in the SA series LA was in a back and forth game for the last 4 possessions. He used 3 of those possession for LA to basically drive into the middle of the paint and throw himself into Tim Duncan with his arms flailing away. There was no real attempt at a shot made. He got one call and 2 no calls….. thankfully LA lost on that crap and the Refs didn't buy the theatrics. This is why I don't' believe Paul is a leader or a "super star" as I define it (playoff leader and pressure player). He's a talented, undersized PG who puts up impressive stats and makes highlight plays. Fun to watch at times but not a player I'd want anywhere near the Lakers.

I'm still not sure how people can get guys like Harden and Wade in the same conversation with Paul on flopping. It all needs to stop but the stuff Paul does is different from the others in that he isn't selling contact as a foul rather he's actually putting effort in looking for people to flop against all the time…. with or without the ball. While I understand seeing Harden's antics as bad I have yet to see him put an arm into some one and then jump back yelling like Paul does on a nightly basis.
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Re: Basketball Evolution

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:35 am

Rooscooter wrote:^^Harden is probably the best (worst) at trying to draw fouls on the way to the hoop. My point is that he does that within the flow of the game and will the ball in his hands making a "basketball move".

Paul's crap has nothing to do with "basketball moves" as he'll run under guys, fall to the floor or pull the crap like the example above with Cousins that are not attempts to make a shot, a pass or screen…. they are for the express purpose of tricking the officials. They have nothing to do with basketball.

Another difference I see in Harden and Paul is that Harden or Wade, with the game on the line, will attempt to draw a foul to aid their cause but do it trying to actually make a shot. Paul will just throw himself into people with the only option for his team being a foul or not a foul. Oftentimes there is no shot available to him.

2 years ago in the SA series LA was in a back and forth game for the last 4 possessions. He used 3 of those possession for LA to basically drive into the middle of the paint and throw himself into Tim Duncan with his arms flailing away. There was no real attempt at a shot made. He got one call and 2 no calls….. thankfully LA lost on that crap and the Refs didn't buy the theatrics. This is why I don't' believe Paul is a leader or a "super star" as I define it (playoff leader and pressure player). He's a talented, undersized PG who puts up impressive stats and makes highlight plays. Fun to watch at times but not a player I'd want anywhere near the Lakers.

I'm still not sure how people can get guys like Harden and Wade in the same conversation with Paul on flopping. It all needs to stop but the stuff Paul does is different from the others in that he isn't selling contact as a foul rather he's actually putting effort in looking for people to flop against all the time…. with or without the ball. While I understand seeing Harden's antics as bad I have yet to see him put an arm into some one and then jump back yelling like Paul does on a nightly basis.


Like i said, you don't watch him play. If you did, you wouldn't be saying what you said. All you are doing is bringing up a few examples of his flops. And they might be pretty out there so you cling to those few instances. Anyone who has watched almost every Clipper game (like i have) since he's been here would know that he plays the game the right way 99.99% of the time. I'm sorry but what you are saying is based PURELY on ignorance and nothing more.
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