Bynum Discussion

Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:39 pm

Mr_Hollywood_Line wrote:
revgen wrote:2nd of all, Phil didn't put LO and Pau on the floor in crunch time because he trusted them more than Bynum. He put them on the floor because they open up driving lanes for Kobe.


You're essentially making my point for me here. When the offense is structured around Kobe, then the job of opening up the aforementioned lanes is, by definition, "the heavy lifting" - particularly late in close games.

revgen wrote:If Jackson trusted Pau and LO as much as you say, Kobe wouldn't be the one with the ball in crunchtime.


This argument is invalid insofar as we're comparing Bynum to LO and Pau - not comparing LO and Pau to Kobe.

revgen wrote:Pau and LO are both playmakers, yet all of the plays are run through Kobe. They simply fit in better as drive and dish players Kobe can play off of. Even JVG said so during the ABC telecasts. He was appalled that Jackson would take out Bynum, their best shot-blocker, during crunchtime. Mike Breen told JVG that Phil said that he believed Pau and Odom were better defensively, which JVG scoffed at and pointed out that the LO and Pau simply make it easier for Kobe to drive by opening up the lanes.


Once again, you're making my point for me, i.e., demonstrating how Pau and LO were more essential or indispensable to the Lakers' success in crunch time (given that Kobe was option #1.)


1) Heavy lifting is when more pressure is put upon a player. Kobe was the one doing the "heavy lifting" during crunchtime, not LO or Pau.

2) You made the claim that Jackson trusted LO + Pau more than Bynum. As in, he trusted their decision-making. If that's true, then he would have given them more or equal responsibility in the 4th quarter. Not less. Both Pau and LO carried more responsibility in quarters 1, 2, and 3 than they ever did in the 4th quarter where they stood around and got out of Kobe's way. Trust has absolutely nothing to do with Pau+LO playing in the 4th quarter over Bynum.

3) Being "essential" and "indispensable" is not the same as "heavy lifting". A starter motor is necessary and indispensable, since you can't start the car without it, yet it's the engine that does the heavy lifting.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Mr_Hollywood_Line on Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:33 pm

revgen wrote:
1) Heavy lifting is when more pressure is put upon a player. Kobe was the one doing the "heavy lifting" during crunchtime, not LO or Pau.


Not sure why you keep trying to bring Kobe into the discussion when we're talking about the differences between Bynum and Pau/LO.

revgen wrote:2) You made the claim that Jackson trusted LO + Pau more than Bynum. As in, he trusted their decision-making. If that's true, then he would have given them more or equal responsibility in the 4th quarter. Not less. Both Pau and LO carried more responsibility in quarters 1, 2, and 3 than they ever did in the 4th quarter where they stood around and got out of Kobe's way. Trust has absolutely nothing to do with Pau+LO playing in the 4th quarter over Bynum.


Given Pau's experience, basketball IQ, and general maturity level, I think it goes without saying that PJ trusted Pau's decision making skills over Bynum's. There's a reason why Kobe has said we won back-to-back titles running the offense through Pau (talking about 2009 and 2010 Pau, obviously.)

revgen wrote:3) Being "essential" and "indispensable" is not the same as "heavy lifting". A starter motor is necessary and indispensable, since you can't start the car without it, yet it's the engine that does the heavy lifting.


By your own analogy, Kobe is the "engine" according to your argument. And, once again, we're not talking about Kobe here.

In any case, I originally defined "heavy lifting" as doing the work involved in crunch time, close games, situations where the game was on the line, etc. You know - pressure situations.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:17 pm

Mr_Hollywood_Line wrote:
revgen wrote:
1) Heavy lifting is when more pressure is put upon a player. Kobe was the one doing the "heavy lifting" during crunchtime, not LO or Pau.


Not sure why you keep trying to bring Kobe into the discussion when we're talking about the differences between Bynum and Pau/LO.

revgen wrote:2) You made the claim that Jackson trusted LO + Pau more than Bynum. As in, he trusted their decision-making. If that's true, then he would have given them more or equal responsibility in the 4th quarter. Not less. Both Pau and LO carried more responsibility in quarters 1, 2, and 3 than they ever did in the 4th quarter where they stood around and got out of Kobe's way. Trust has absolutely nothing to do with Pau+LO playing in the 4th quarter over Bynum.


Given Pau's experience, basketball IQ, and general maturity level, I think it goes without saying that PJ trusted Pau's decision making skills over Bynum's. There's a reason why Kobe has said we won back-to-back titles running the offense through Pau (talking about 2009 and 2010 Pau, obviously.)

revgen wrote:3) Being "essential" and "indispensable" is not the same as "heavy lifting". A starter motor is necessary and indispensable, since you can't start the car without it, yet it's the engine that does the heavy lifting.


By your own analogy, Kobe is the "engine" according to your argument. And, once again, we're not talking about Kobe here.

In any case, I originally defined "heavy lifting" as doing the work involved in crunch time, close games, situations where the game was on the line, etc. You know - pressure situations.


1) Because there is no difference between Bynum and Pau/LO when it comes to heavy lifting in the 4th quarter. Kobe did the heavy lifting.

2) We never ran the offense through Pau in the 4th quarter, so I'm not sure what your point is.

3) Pau and LO never "did the work" during crunchtime and pressure situations. Kobe did. They stood around and got out of his way.

Phil didn't take Bynum out in the 4th quarters because he trusted LO and Pau. He took Bynum out because he trusted Kobe over all of them. The best fit for Kobe is to have a front-line who can get out of the way and space the floor for him. Pau and LO are the best floor spacers, so they automatically get the nod. It's no different than D'Antoni not playing Jordan Hill because Hill doesn't space the floor. It doesn't have anything to do with Shawn Williams being a better player.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby trodgers on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:01 pm

Bynum has 10 points, 4 boards, 3 blocks tonight. He's my second favorite NBA player and my most favorite suiting up at present. Glad to see it.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:26 pm

^Best game so far for him this season. He has a long way to go, but he's starting to shake the rust off, albeit slowly.

The Cavs are very young and often make silly mistakes, but they have a lot of talent. It will be interesting to see how they grow.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Sirron on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:33 pm

Hope he stays healthy for his own sake. I'll never watch one of his games unless he's playing the Lakers, but I still hope the best for him and most ex Lakers unless they are puds.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:58 pm

Good for Bynum...if he's healthy, that Cleveland team gets much better.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby gcclaker on Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:58 pm

Small blurb on SI which about Bynum experiencing sharp pains and has to adjust his game?

07:19 AM ET 11.05 | Two of the most famous knees in Cleveland are barking, if only a little. Andrew Bynum offered his most candid comments yet about the state of his knees before the Cavaliers faced the Minnesota Timberwolves on Monday night at The Q. Preparing to play his third game of the season, Bynum acknowledged that he had experienced "little, sharp pains" and said he wasn't sure his explosiveness would return. He's still working on his conditioning and timing. At the same time, he said he was looking forward to increased minutes and playing in both halves. Of the pain, he said, "Nothing too bad." Asked about having to change his game if his explosiveness doesn't return, he said he would rely on footwork and skills instead of athleticism.

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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:28 pm

He's always going to have pain for the rest of his career. Patrick Ewing played at a HOF level with bad knees. What Bynum and the Cleveland doctors are trying to prevent is inflammation and swelling, which kept him off the court in Philly.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:50 pm

trodgers wrote:Bynum has 10 points, 4 boards, 3 blocks tonight. He's my second favorite NBA player and my most favorite suiting up at present. Glad to see it.


As many know here... I've always appreciated his dedication to come back from injury and his massive growth as a player playing the hardest position on the floor. He developed quite an entitlement attitude toward the end.

If everyone can put aside the way he left here and look at what the gangly 17 year old became by working hard it's actually a pretty good story. Especially when you compare it to a guy that has all of the tools from birth and basically wastes it in Howard. One 10th of what Bynum did to get better in Howard's DNA and he would be unstoppable....
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby XXIV on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:38 pm

I think we all appreciate what Bynum has done for this franchise over the years. He was there for us on just one leg during the finals and continued to rehab and work his way back after multiple surgeries. However, like you mentioned that attitude he developed really annoyed all of us and it caused some tension.

With that said, I do hope he's able to return to playing significant time in Cleveland and help them towards making the playoffs. He's one of the few true centers left that actually have the size and skill to actually dominate the position.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:23 am

Rooscooter wrote:
trodgers wrote:Bynum has 10 points, 4 boards, 3 blocks tonight. He's my second favorite NBA player and my most favorite suiting up at present. Glad to see it.


As many know here... I've always appreciated his dedication to come back from injury and his massive growth as a player playing the hardest position on the floor. He developed quite an entitlement attitude toward the end.

If everyone can put aside the way he left here and look at what the gangly 17 year old became by working hard it's actually a pretty good story. Especially when you compare it to a guy that has all of the tools from birth and basically wastes it in Howard. One 10th of what Bynum did to get better in Howard's DNA and he would be unstoppable....


It's like Shaq split into two players in 2005: Bynum and Dwight.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Juronimo on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 pm

Check this article on drew on espn

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9942913/andrew-bynum-cleveland-cavaliers-pondering-career

Check this quote:

"Retirement was a thought, it was a serious thought. It still is," Bynum said after the Cavs practice Thursday at Temple University. "It's tough to enjoy the game because of how limited I am physically. I'm working through that. Every now and again I do (think about retirement)…It's still career threatening. I'm a shell of myself on the court right now. I'm just struggling mentally."


Wow, I feel for him.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:42 pm

I'm amazed that he looks as good as he does despite the limitations. He still draws double-teams when he catches the ball and he's even blocking 1.3 shots a game in 13 minutes per game. That's more blocked shots than Varajao even though Varajao is averaging 31 mpg.

That's how weak the center position is in the NBA. In the 90's, I doubt Bynum would even be hired by a team in his current condition.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:00 pm

Varejao isn't a shotblocker though. I don't know if that's a fair comparison.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:20 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Varejao isn't a shotblocker though. I don't know if that's a fair comparison.


I think it is. Varajao is a starting center in today's NBA. He originally came into the NBA as a PF next to Ilgauskas, which Mike Brown eventually wants to do again if Bynum can get healthy again.

The difference between Bynum and Varajo illustrates how weak the center position is in today's game. So many teams, especially in the east, have PF's playing center to fill in a position that lacks in talent.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby therealdeal on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:49 am

Bynum can't get healthy. It's not his fault, it happens sometimes to big men. It's a similar result as Brandon Roy having no cartilage in his knees even if Bynum doesn't have the same physical problem.

He's admitted it himself that this is something that is CONSTANTLY career threatening. That's just too much to have to have to think about during games and be as effective as he needs to be...

Sad. I feel for the guy. I know he's a little aloof and a little bit of a jerk, but he's still just a kid. Those things happen when you're that age. I think reality is striking home now and it's a serious concern. Not just in basketball but in his life. Those knees are going to hurt forever.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:15 am

Man this sucks. I hate injuries like these because the athletes can be physically fit, ready to go but their knees continue to hinder them.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby LTLakerFan on Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:40 pm

I saw just a little bit of him on ESPN highlights last night and he looked slow and lumbering still. Not good. And he and Oden were supposed to go at it as great big men for a decade in the West. I'm glad he had the experience he had with the Lakers and the 2 rings to look back on as well as should be set for life with money if he's not stupid with it.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby 432J on Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:09 pm

really terrible news about drew

but even if he does call it quits he goes out with 2 rings under his belt and as one of the best big men in the game for the past 6-7 years. not to mention a huge part of our back to back titles
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby Sirron on Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:38 pm

No reason to mock 76'er fans response as weak. I see he still hasn't learned a some basic behaviors. They paid you umpteen millions, and you didn't even suit up. They boo, and his response is "It was weak"? Wowsers. :man10:
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:00 pm

Frankly, the boos were weak. The Philly fans were smiling the whole time they were booing. Kwame Brown was booed worse in Staples Center.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby LTLakerFan on Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:03 pm

DNP yesterday. This doesn't look good at all for him. All this time and it still hurts too much to play. My appreciation for him in the good days and for the hard effort he put in to improve his game and come back from the injuries and contribute as much as he could is now outweighing the annoyance at him getting the big head and doing questionable stuff off and sometimes on the court at the end with us.

Remember the "Bynum will never be special" thread? A couple of families of crows had to be eaten by the OP on that one. His potential was clearly visible at the time that thread was launched.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby revgen on Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:53 pm

^Yesterday's game was a b2b game. The Cavs are holding him out on on the backend of b2b games as a matter of policy, regardless of how his knees are feeling. This policy is set by the team doctors. They are bringing him along slowly and monitoring how his knees respond.
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Re: Bynum Discussion: signs with Cavs (p. 298)

Postby LTLakerFan on Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:53 pm

Ahh….OK thanks
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