Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:44 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Yes, DJ has absolutely ZERO ounce of skills. If his life depended on him making a basket with his back to the basket 10 feet away, he is a dead man. But like i said before, if you know what he can and can't do and know how to utilize him properly, he can be a huge factor for you. He's in an ideal situation right now because he plays alongside another big who has a post up game so he can just be the clean up man and not worry about producing offensively. But even given the fact that he has no offensive skills, he is still big factor in this league. He led the entire NBA in rebounding, fg pct, dunks and was 3rd in blocks.

If your big loses sight of DJ down the court, it's an automatic 2 points off the fast break lob. The guy gives you cheap, easy offense sometimes. Really, his coordination and athleticism for a C is up there with almost anyone in history.


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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:46 am

Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote: His "positional" defense to me translates to, "I'm too slow to react to anything i'm stuck Iin the paint."


Not even worth the debate if this is your take on that. Marc Gasol, Asik, healthy Bynum must be below DJ as well on defense.


My point is that he's overrated in all aspects of his game, including his defense. Is he a presence? Of course he is, the guy is 7'2" and 285 lbs. Anytime you are that tall and that big, you have to be considered a "presence". But that doesn't mean the guy is an elite level defender. Just cause a tall guy clogs up the paint don't make you one.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:57 am

lakerfan2 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Yes, DJ has absolutely ZERO ounce of skills. If his life depended on him making a basket with his back to the basket 10 feet away, he is a dead man. But like i said before, if you know what he can and can't do and know how to utilize him properly, he can be a huge factor for you. He's in an ideal situation right now because he plays alongside another big who has a post up game so he can just be the clean up man and not worry about producing offensively. But even given the fact that he has no offensive skills, he is still big factor in this league. He led the entire NBA in rebounding, fg pct, dunks and was 3rd in blocks.

If your big loses sight of DJ down the court, it's an automatic 2 points off the fast break lob. The guy gives you cheap, easy offense sometimes. Really, his coordination and athleticism for a C is up there with almost anyone in history.


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Don't know if serious? The guy you guys call Biff?
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:27 am

Not sure if serious. #getyomemesstr8

Didn't know facing up, and bullying players to the basket or spinning for a dunk constituted in a "post game". But, I shouldn't really be surprised from fairweather bandwagon fans.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:34 am

lakerfan2 wrote:Not sure if serious. #getyomemesstr8

Didn't know facing up, and bullying players to the basket or spinning for a dunk constituted in a "post game". But, I shouldn't really be surprised from fairweather bandwagon fans.


Wow, just wow. You OBVIOUSLY haven't been watching Blake this year. The guy is a very reliable post up game, whether that's back to the basket or facing up. If you still don't think he doesn't have a very good post up game, i'll stop here.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:59 am

:man10: :man10: This thread is pure gold….. basically because a player is more athletic and can dunk in 15 points in blowouts makes him superior to a fundamental player who contributes much more consistently.

….. or to really boil it down…. my guy can block shots into the 5th row and dunk and can pose with the best of them….. he can't…... :man10:
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:16 pm

Griffin has improved a great deal .... the "he only can dunk" crowd has clearly not watched him play for some time ...
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:42 pm

Griffin is certainly more than a dunker now. He's an effective post player, albeit not a very talented player in the post. You'd never mistake him for Hakeem or Kobe that's for sure, but he gets the job done decently.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:45 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:Griffin has improved a great deal .... the "he only can dunk" crowd has clearly not watched him play for some time ...


Never said anything about "only dunking", but his form of "post play" isn't what I would call post play.

It's more bully ball with little footwork or technique involved.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:50 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:Griffin has improved a great deal .... the "he only can dunk" crowd has clearly not watched him play for some time ...


He is becoming scary good right before our eyes. Most have him 3rd in the MVP voting behind the big 2. What he did when Paul was out for 20+ games was unreal. He has taken his game to another level. He is deadly as a face up post up player because his quickness can shake any PF. But he is also becoming very deadly with his back to the basket. His FT shooting has improved big time. His outside shot from 18-20 is much more consistent. His handles for a PF is very impressive. He actually initiates the offense sometimes after he gets the board. Instead of just passing to a guard, he will take it up the court himself and if he sees the D isn't set, he'll go coast to coast. You see him doing this on a regular basis now. And he faces doubles teams in the post on a regular basis. He is now a reliable post up player. There is no doubt about it. Teams fear him in the post now, which would've been laughable even just last year.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:04 pm

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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:51 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote: His "positional" defense to me translates to, "I'm too slow to react to anything i'm stuck Iin the paint."


Not even worth the debate if this is your take on that. Marc Gasol, Asik, healthy Bynum must be below DJ as well on defense.


My point is that he's overrated in all aspects of his game, including his defense. Is he a presence? Of course he is, the guy is 7'2" and 285 lbs. Anytime you are that tall and that big, you have to be considered a "presence". But that doesn't mean the guy is an elite level defender. Just cause a tall guy clogs up the paint don't make you one.


Opponent PER

DJ - 19.6
Hibbert - 13.1

Opponent PPG On/Off

DJ - On 106.1, Off - 106
Hibbert - On 99.7, Off - 102.3

Yep. Just tall and clogs the lane.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:31 pm

Deandre is still just a weak side shot blocker, with not much offense. A poor man's Ben Wallace. But he fits well on the Clippers, a poor man's championship team. :man11:
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:40 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote: His "positional" defense to me translates to, "I'm too slow to react to anything i'm stuck Iin the paint."


Not even worth the debate if this is your take on that. Marc Gasol, Asik, healthy Bynum must be below DJ as well on defense.


My point is that he's overrated in all aspects of his game, including his defense. Is he a presence? Of course he is, the guy is 7'2" and 285 lbs. Anytime you are that tall and that big, you have to be considered a "presence". But that doesn't mean the guy is an elite level defender. Just cause a tall guy clogs up the paint don't make you one.


Opponent PER

DJ - 19.6
Hibbert - 13.1

Opponent PPG On/Off

DJ - On 106.1, Off - 106
Hibbert - On 99.7, Off - 102.3

Yep. Just tall and clogs the lane.


That's not fair Doc…… hitting a stat freak with……. stats….. :man10:
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:41 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:Griffin has improved a great deal .... the "he only can dunk" crowd has clearly not watched him play for some time ...


If that was shot my direction keep in mind that I was referring to the OP's original question…… not the Biff fork in the thread…..
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby v1n5anity on Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:47 pm

When it comes to talent and ability to contribute to a winning team consistently, there's no doubt Hibbert is the guy.

However, the problem with him is his obvious mental (confidence) issues, his inability to establish post position, and his relatively weak rebounding ability. I've always said that Hibbert is not a great post player and doesn't really finish well around the rim against guys his size. He takes hook shots from weird angles and can't dominate offensively against most teams. The reason why he has been successful against Miami is because of the size advantage.

All in all, if I'm trying to win a championship and had to choose between these two, there's no doubt I'm taking Hibbert, but he has some major flaws.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:20 pm

^^Well said……
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:47 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote: His "positional" defense to me translates to, "I'm too slow to react to anything i'm stuck Iin the paint."


Not even worth the debate if this is your take on that. Marc Gasol, Asik, healthy Bynum must be below DJ as well on defense.


My point is that he's overrated in all aspects of his game, including his defense. Is he a presence? Of course he is, the guy is 7'2" and 285 lbs. Anytime you are that tall and that big, you have to be considered a "presence". But that doesn't mean the guy is an elite level defender. Just cause a tall guy clogs up the paint don't make you one.


Opponent PER

DJ - 19.6
Hibbert - 13.1

Opponent PPG On/Off

DJ - On 106.1, Off - 106
Hibbert - On 99.7, Off - 102.3

Yep. Just tall and clogs the lane.


Touche. I never said DJ was a dominant defender. Just that he is a factor. But single stats can be misleading. For instance, the Clips led the league in scoring while Indy likes to play a slower pace, so it's not surprising the Clips gave up a few more points. The Clips did have the 2nd best point differential only behind SA. And I think that is a big indicator of how good of a team you really is.

Like I said, the guy is a presence. He has to be due to his height/size, almost by default. But I don't consider him an elite defender. Not with his terrible and slow footwork and inability to cover ground. He is a presence nonetheless.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:57 pm

v1n5anity wrote:When it comes to talent and ability to contribute to a winning team consistently, there's no doubt Hibbert is the guy.

However, the problem with him is his obvious mental (confidence) issues, his inability to establish post position, and his relatively weak rebounding ability. I've always said that Hibbert is not a great post player and doesn't really finish well around the rim against guys his size. He takes hook shots from weird angles and can't dominate offensively against most teams. The reason why he has been successful against Miami is because of the size advantage.

All in all, if I'm trying to win a championship and had to choose between these two, there's no doubt I'm taking Hibbert, but he has some major flaws.


I don't know. The guy has been terrible for months. He isn't injured or anything, just unable to perform. I don't think it should be a slam dunk that Hibbert is superior over DJ. It depends on what team you have. I think both guys are in ideal situations right now. Hibbert is in a slow paced, grind it out team while DJ is on a fast paced, up and down team that likes to run. I think switching Hibbert to the Clips would actually hurt them because he would slow everything down. The piece doesn't fit. And the same for DJ in Indy. He has absolutely no post game and would offer nothing in their half court game.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:49 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:Image



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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:56 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Griffin has improved a great deal .... the "he only can dunk" crowd has clearly not watched him play for some time ...


If that was shot my direction keep in mind that I was referring to the OP's original question…… not the Biff fork in the thread…..

no it wasn't directed at you as you didn't talk about Griffin in this thread
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby therealdeal on Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:11 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Touche. I never said DJ was a dominant defender. Just that he is a factor. But single stats can be misleading. For instance, the Clips led the league in scoring while Indy likes to play a slower pace, so it's not surprising the Clips gave up a few more points. The Clips did have the 2nd best point differential only behind SA. And I think that is a big indicator of how good of a team you really is.

Like I said, the guy is a presence. He has to be due to his height/size, almost by default. But I don't consider him an elite defender. Not with his terrible and slow footwork and inability to cover ground. He is a presence nonetheless.

You realize it's not about the Clippers or the Pacers scoring more or less, right?

It's about the differential of them on the court. If you made the point production the same for both teams it looks like this:

Opponent PPG On/Off

DJ- On 106.1, Off- 106
Hibbert- On 106.1, Off- 108.7

Hibbert is more important to his team's defense than Jordan. Jordan is a worse defender by that metric. The only metric in which Jordan is a comparable or better defender is in the total blocks output which is a bit of a misleading stat. Howard and Ibaka are good shot blockers, but they're not necessarily the great defenders that say Gasol and Hibbert are. Bill Russell blocked a lot of shots, but he also lead his defense like few others in the game have done. He's a great defender. Jordan is just a flashy athlete with a ton of physical talent and not much going on between his ears.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:51 pm

Hibbert. 4 pts, 2 reb, 0 blks
DJ 14 pts, 22 reb, 5 blks

Hell yes I take DJ over Hibbert and it's not even close. It's about where they are at RIGHT NOW and where they are headed. DJ is just tapping into his potential and will sustain this level of play or get better. I honestly think Hibbert is overrated. He had the series of his life against Miami last year and people thought that was the real Hibbert. It's not. The real Hibbert is slow as a turtle and the game is too fast for him. Scola is playing so much better than Hibbert right now. And people say DJ has no skills and is nothing but an athletic freak. And I counter, bingo, you are 100% correct. But guess what, in basketball, if you have a guy 6'11" and that freakishly athletic, he can impact the game in so many ways. You don't lead the league in rebounding by accident. It's his time.
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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:52 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Touche. I never said DJ was a dominant defender. Just that he is a factor. But single stats can be misleading. For instance, the Clips led the league in scoring while Indy likes to play a slower pace, so it's not surprising the Clips gave up a few more points. The Clips did have the 2nd best point differential only behind SA. And I think that is a big indicator of how good of a team you really is.

Like I said, the guy is a presence. He has to be due to his height/size, almost by default. But I don't consider him an elite defender. Not with his terrible and slow footwork and inability to cover ground. He is a presence nonetheless.

You realize it's not about the Clippers or the Pacers scoring more or less, right?

It's about the differential of them on the court. If you made the point production the same for both teams it looks like this:

Opponent PPG On/Off

DJ- On 106.1, Off- 106
Hibbert- On 106.1, Off- 108.7

Hibbert is more important to his team's defense than Jordan. Jordan is a worse defender by that metric. The only metric in which Jordan is a comparable or better defender is in the total blocks output which is a bit of a misleading stat. Howard and Ibaka are good shot blockers, but they're not necessarily the great defenders that say Gasol and Hibbert are. Bill Russell blocked a lot of shots, but he also lead his defense like few others in the game have done. He's a great defender. Jordan is just a flashy athlete with a ton of physical talent and not much going on between his ears.


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Re: Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?

Postby Weezy on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:04 am

An "lol" is a real mature argument, nicely done. And yes, the stats from one game vs advanced stats over their careers is also a great argument, well done there also. :man11:
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