Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:29 am

Punks and Pricks….. :man10: Beverly seems not to be really different than a lot of players. He gives effort all the time to compensate for his not being as talented as others in the league. There are a ton of players who do that.

There was no intent last year when Westbrook got hurt…. none at all. Westbrook's severe lack of maturity and his entitled attitude boiled over when it happened as usual.

I know I'm unusual in this…. but I'd much rather watch a player who works his butt off and shows even a minimal level of appreciation for their place in the league. Guys like Westbrook approach the game the other way around. As talented as he is I can't stand the sight of the guy….. and this "fake" controversy makes it even worse.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Weezy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:14 am

Ok, so I worded my comments too strongly for comedy when I said I was now a fan of Beverly. That said, I stand by my point, Beverly is a pest and Westbrook is a whiny b****. I don't like either, but if you give me the choice in a weird fight like this between an annoying pest/possible punk, and an entitled, whiny little b****, I'm taking the pest. I don't like Westbrook, and that's coming from a UCLA fan who watched a lot of his college games. He acts entitled on the court like CP3, as if other players should never be allowed to touch him, and he acted like a giant baby when Beverly first injured him making a completely legit basketball play, it was an accident.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby abeer3 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:23 pm

and Beverly stomping around and pouting after every call against him is endearing? again, at least westbrook can play basketball.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby therealdeal on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:00 pm

Beverley has pulled dirty stuff on Westbrook twice. THAT'S a punk.

Although Westbrook's bravado is seriously grating... He's not actively trying to hurt people with it.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:42 pm

therealdeal wrote:Beverley has pulled dirty stuff on Westbrook twice. THAT'S a punk.

Although Westbrook's bravado is seriously grating... He's not actively trying to hurt people with it.

disagree that either play was dirty.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby therealdeal on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:54 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Beverley has pulled dirty stuff on Westbrook twice. THAT'S a punk.

Although Westbrook's bravado is seriously grating... He's not actively trying to hurt people with it.

disagree that either play was dirty.

I didn't think the first one was dirty the first time I saw it, but when there's a second incident that's similar I start to see a pattern. I don't like that. Bowen was the same way and so is/was Dahntay Jones. One time is an anomaly but twice makes me look a little harder.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Weezy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:21 pm

abeer3 wrote:and Beverly stomping around and pouting after every call against him is endearing? again, at least westbrook can play basketball.


Where did I or anyone else say "endearing"? I said if I have to choose between who I root for and laugh with in this silky feud between 2 douches, I take the one who is chippy, but playing all out vs the one who is a whiny little b**** not wanting anyone beneath him to touch him.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Weezy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:38 pm

therealdeal wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Beverley has pulled dirty stuff on Westbrook twice. THAT'S a punk.

Although Westbrook's bravado is seriously grating... He's not actively trying to hurt people with it.

disagree that either play was dirty.

I didn't think the first one was dirty the first time I saw it, but when there's a second incident that's similar I start to see a pattern. I don't like that. Bowen was the same way and so is/was Dahntay Jones. One time is an anomaly but twice makes me look a little harder.


I agree with puffy, neither play was dirty. First play was a play on the ball and a freak accident, one that nobody looks twice at if Westbrook doesn't react like Moises Alou did to Steve Bartman. The second incident, was the guy being a punk, but not dirty. If you look at it closely he waited til Westbrook was really not moving, or at least not running, and he didn't sweep low by his knee for the ball. He came up to him and went at him high at the ball just to piss him off and get in his head, there was no intent to injure him, so IMO it's not dirty.

Now had he gone for the ball by his knees again brining in the possibility of injuring him I'd agree it was dirty, because he'd be showing no concern at all for Westbrook's well being and he'd be basically saying "I don't care if I injure you again", but he didn't do that. What I think is the issue here is again, how Westbrook reacted last season to this, accusing Beverly of injuring him on purpose, that's not an accusation you just throw out there because you're feeling b****y. So Beverly went at Westbrook a little, but he didn't go at his knees, and he didn't try to injure him, he was responding to Westbrook's accusations in a game between two teams that hate eachother.

This stuff used to be around in the NBA all the time, at least when I started watching in the 90's, and even with Kobe and Shaq vs some teams they hated. I feel like we've gotten a little too sensitive and soft on this chippy play stuff, that's just basketball, or at least it used to be, get in the opponents head any way you can. Westbrook is a hot head, Beverly was clever here, Reggie Miller and MJ would have made Westbrook cry if Beverly can cause a stir like this.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby therealdeal on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:14 pm

Hey don't accuse me of getting soft Weezy! :boxing1:

I don't know. I just don't like Beverley, I think he's just as much a punk as Westbrook is, and between the two I go with the one who can back it up most often. You could be 100% right about the two plays being incidental, but if it's against the same dude, then I don't see the second time being an accident. He's playing overly aggressive on purpose and once a guy gets hurt, I'm not sure I like the idea of going back at him in the same way. At least not right away.

Either way I don't like either player. :man10:
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:19 pm

OK…. looks like we have a consensus. Westbrook is a talented prick and a punk. Beverley is a punk and not talented….. and wasn't intentionally trying to hurt the aforementioned prick/punk….

…. Oh… and abeer is only half right…... :man12:

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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:20 pm

The other play that no one is talking about is the jump ball where Beverley picked RW up at 3/4 court and picked his pocket at midcourt. A jumpball resulted where RW had another hissy fit because Beverley was the aggressor and was on top of RW to force the jumpball.

Beverley wasn't trying to hurt him in any of the plays, he just knows that he can get under RW's skin at any point of the game.

I could see RW taking a swing at him at some point in the future.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Weezy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:38 pm

I like the word Doc used, "aggressor". Beverly was the aggressor, he's playing physical defense with Westbrook and he doesn't like it, so Beverly keeps it up. Beverly is being very aggressive, not dirty, because he knows it bothers Westbrook, and Westbrook is looking to the refs for fouls because some annoying little nobody is daring to touch him and play hard against him. I don't like either of these players either (I said I wasn't serious when I said I was a fan of Beverly now), but I do get a kick out of the whole thing.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby havoc33 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:06 am

Beverly is a punk. If this was back in the 80s, he'd get clocked right there.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby abeer3 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:09 am

havoc33 wrote:Beverly is a punk. If this was back in the 80s, he'd get clocked right there.


yep. pick up game? clocked. that's my measure of on-court honor. same reason I don't like walking under shooters. you wouldn't do that crap playing at the gym. why? because it's a super punk move, and you might get your butt whipped. but bevs is all about it. just playin' hard!

note that westbrook is not the only player to complain about his "tactics". lillard made comments after a game this year, cousins tried to punch him. I don't buy the theory that Patrick Beverly is the only nba player who competes, and this annoys the softies. more likely, it's that he engages in activities outside the norm that can be universally agreed upon as "punk".
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby halekulani on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:57 am

Rooscooter wrote:
halekulani wrote:cp3 and rondo handle the ball quite a bit
not sure why you think they are drastically different.
cp3 is also a legitimate 3 point catch and shoot threat


Rondo is a player that can initiate without the pick and roll and can defend. While CP3 gets steals he really isn't much of a defender. He creates 90% of the time in the triple pick and roll.

Rondo's dominance of the ball is probably 60% of CP3.

CP3 is also a primary scorer. What Durant needs is complementary scorers.

dude
cp3 shoots 13 shots a game
rondo shoots 12

westbrook shoots 17

rondo's usg is 24
cp3's usg is 25
westbrook's usg is 33

dude just admit that you don't like paul for non-basketball reasons
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby halekulani on Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:02 pm

therealdeal wrote:Beverley has pulled dirty stuff on Westbrook twice. THAT'S a punk.

Although Westbrook's bravado is seriously grating... He's not actively trying to hurt people with it.

1. the intent is to catch someone off guard and go for an easy steal when they are about to call time out. if you want to consider his act bush league, you have to prove he wants to injure someone ie. flagrant foul
2. the knee injury was an accident. why don't people get this? this steal before the TO play happened all the time, but just because wb gets injured all of a sudden it's a dirty play? jfc. let's just tell people to stop boxing out because so many players end up taking hard falls when someone slides under them.
3. wb has tried to do the same steal before the TO to other players in the past so it's not like he can throw stones.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:53 pm

halekulani wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
halekulani wrote:cp3 and rondo handle the ball quite a bit
not sure why you think they are drastically different.
cp3 is also a legitimate 3 point catch and shoot threat


Rondo is a player that can initiate without the pick and roll and can defend. While CP3 gets steals he really isn't much of a defender. He creates 90% of the time in the triple pick and roll.

Rondo's dominance of the ball is probably 60% of CP3.

CP3 is also a primary scorer. What Durant needs is complementary scorers.

dude
cp3 shoots 13 shots a game
rondo shoots 12

westbrook shoots 17

rondo's usg is 24
cp3's usg is 25
westbrook's usg is 33

dude just admit that you don't like paul for non-basketball reasons


Ahhh.... The stat defense.... :man10:

CP3 is much more ball dependent than Rondo. Shot attempts show that in your world? Try watching the games rather than the box scores. Their styles are much different..... To toss out something like shot attempts to support the idea that they are somehow interchangeable is not really understanding how each plays with their teammates. Paul has 3 people assist him in creating his opportunities and passing lanes. Rondo can create off the dribble without the triple screen as well as off a single pick....allowing much more action off the ball.

What Paul was hurt the Clips did this with Collison and the scored more points, had a higher winning percentage and had a fantastic flow on the offensive end.

What I will face is results...... Paul's and Rondo's. The Fantasy stuff and stats (as an indicator of worth) I'll leave to you.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby halekulani on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:50 pm

i brought up shot attempts because you labeled paul as a scorer who can't play sidekick. he's not even shooting that much to begin with. i don't see how you arrived to the conclusion that he is 1. a scorer and 2. cannot play well next to kd because he hogs the ball so much.

i mean basically what you're trying to tell me is that a guy that drops 10+ assists a game and shoots 13x a game is going to take shots away from KD? WHAT?

yes, i used metrics because your bias is ridiculous and obvious.

try watching the games? clips just won 10 straight including wins over GSW, phx 2x, okc, and houston? yeah ok they are totally better w/o him tho.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:59 pm

^^ :man3:
Paul has been either the leading or second leading scorer on his teams. In reality he's been within a point or two being the leading scorer on every team he's played on. How is that not ball dominant when you add in the assists? Look at how many of the team's points he accounts for and add in the Free Throws (something you forgot conveniently). It's not that he can't produce..... in the regular season he puts up the stats.... but in the post season you stop him you stop his teams. Pop and SA have written the book on it. His team becomes so dependent on him that if he isn't exactly perfect they lose. The lobs and running stuff they do goes away in the playoffs as the game slows down. When he has to produce in a slower game he's not nearly as effective and it's shown to be true over and over again.

As I suspected.... you haven't watched the games. I've followed most of his career. I've watched him fall apart in the playoffs. I've heard people blame everyone but him as well. No matter what happens it's that he hasn't played with a good enough team or he doesn't have that great number 2 on his team.... or whatever.

We'll see. All the Paul apologists will show bias after this year if he doesn't win it. That team is as stacked as anyone this year...... and if you had been following along you'd also acknowledge the other things that happened about the time Chris the Great came back.... but no.... that doesn't fit your narrative... it's all him isn't it?

They played much more like a complete team without him.... I watched all but 2 halves of them during that run and most of the games since. Go ahead and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and how I'm personally against him all you want.... but what I do know is that you haven't watched the games and are picking stats and parroting sports center....

Back to what I originally said in this thread.... Rondo would be a much better fit for KD than Westbrook or CP3. It allows KD to take control and the rest of the team to know who's who..... If OKC was smart they'd trade for Rondo and get some hole fillers as well. Westbrook may thrive as well on a new team. I'm not sure he ever figures out the mental nuances of the game and his transition to life after freak athleticism may not be that smooth either.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby halekulani on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:25 pm

you just assume someone doesn't watch the games bc they don't agree with your assessment? do i have to write a narrative about how i watched him since college or show you a log of every time i sat down to watch tv and have annotations of which players i watch?

good grief. you do realize how extremely limiting that is in a discussion?

let's talk about point A
oh i think this
well i think you're wrong and obviously you just don't watch the games

let's talk about point B
stats say this
well i dont care what stats say and it's obvious you don't watch the games bc i think you're wrong

yes
offense is easier in transition
name a single team that works better and more efficiently in the half court set against a set defense
thank you for that great piece of knowledge, captain obvious
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:10 am

halekulani wrote:you just assume someone doesn't watch the games bc they don't agree with your assessment? do i have to write a narrative about how i watched him since college or show you a log of every time i sat down to watch tv and have annotations of which players i watch?

good grief. you do realize how extremely limiting that is in a discussion?

let's talk about point A
oh i think this
well i think you're wrong and obviously you just don't watch the games

let's talk about point B
stats say this
well i dont care what stats say and it's obvious you don't watch the games bc i think you're wrong

yes
offense is easier in transition
name a single team that works better and more efficiently in the half court set against a set defense
thank you for that great piece of knowledge, captain obvious


Stats say Iverson is one of the top guards ever....... And light years ahead of CP3. You could argue that point only of you had another reference point from which to compare....... Well....... I could.... :man12:

At the risk of being too obvious..... I couldn't care less about excusing why success rate changes. If your looking for a championship you have to adjust to the situation. The little guard dominant teams never win in the playoffs. He's right there with Nash, Stockton and the rest. Not bad company I guess but the system he has success in isn't built for the playoffs and his limited ability to play off the ball and be a finisher is where he comes up short in being a champion so far. He may get on a team so stacked some day that it cam overcome it...or the West may have the teams ahead of him dissolve but he's not been able to have success beyond the second round.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby halekulani on Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:07 pm

eh
iverson's stats are pedestrian compared to cp3
i dont even know how you got to that conclusion

guard dominant teams don't win rings if the pg is the best player on the team - true
however, cp3 won't be the best player on the team if he plays next to kd
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby John3:16 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:35 pm

halekulani wrote:eh
iverson's stats are pedestrian compared to cp3
i dont even know how you got to that conclusion

guard dominant teams don't win rings if the pg is the best player on the team - true
however, cp3 won't be the best player on the team if he plays next to kd


Huh? Check Iverson scoring average.

Check Lakers and Pistons in the 80s for PG / championship teams. And Jordan was a SG for 6 rings in the 90s and Kobe in the 00s.

Was your post sarcasm or am I missing something?
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:38 pm

Pedestrian?
His career average is 5 more than CP3 averaged in his best year.... Averaged 31 and 8 at 29 years old..... Yeah.... Middle of the pack stuff......

I'm not one to put too much into stats but to speak the language you started with I'd say Iverson's 6 year stretch where he averaged 30 and 7.3 is up there with any PG not named Oscar for total production.
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Re: Does Russell Westbrook throw off OKC's chemistry?

Postby Finwë on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:04 pm

Iverson wasn't efficient though.
Not saying FG% or missed FGA per game are the end-all, be-all.. but if we're really talking about what statistics say about players, it should never be something as simplistic as just ppg or apg. Efficiency is a basic and commonly used stat, and there are much more advanced ones to bring up too

BTW, I do agree that Rondo is underrated, that CP3 can sometimes be overrated, and that stats don't tell the whole story.. Just saying statistics do matter in many ways, only we need to look deeper into them, more advanced stuff that try to capture more than simple box score logs.
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