I'm going to do a series of polls to see who CLers think are the top defensive bigs/smalls, scorers, rebounders, etc. of all-time.

The polls will feature 10 people and after 48 hours of voting, the poll closes. Then, I will open up a new poll where CLers can vote for the second best defensive bigs/smalls, scorer, rebounder, etc. of all-time until we get a top 5 list. CLers can nominate any players that aren't featured in the poll, and I'll put that player in the next poll.

Pound-for-pound - The Worm.

Dennis Rodman might have been the greatest 6'7" defender, but in terms of overall impact, I don't think any one came close to Bill Russell.

ZenMaster4President wrote:Pound-for-pound - The Worm.

This.

Not to nitpick, but thread title and poll are different.

Moncrief is a "big man" now?

John3:16 wrote:

ZenMaster4President wrote:Pound-for-pound - The Worm.

This.

Not to nitpick, but thread title and poll are different.

Oops. I initially created this poll to be the best "defenders" and was just writing down people who got DPOTY awards. Then I changed it midway because I thought that bigs and smalls should be separated. I edited the mistakes...I think.

Edit: I guess changing the poll's position made the votes all weird. Anyway, everything should be fixed now. ><

russell's gotta be #1

i'd also put howard, olajuwon, and rodman on my list too. nice to see mark eaton on there, people forget how talented of a defender he was

Yeah, you have to put Russell. I hate to say it, but is mainly because of that guy's defense that the Celtics are still one ring ahead of us. If it wasn't for him, it wouldn't even be a race by now.

Glad to see Russell is winning this, some people write him off because of his era but he is easily the most impactful defender of all time and no one else really comes close.

Wow..... no Nate Thurmond or Kareem?.... bogus list without those two. Kareem literally changed games all the way until his final year on the defensive end.......

Nate Thurmond is considered by basketball insiders to be the greatest Center defender of all time..... Kareem himself said he was by far the most difficult to play against..... for comparison.... a 23-26 year old Kareem averaged 21ppg against Thurmond (while averaging in the high 20's in those days) and a 35 year old Kareem averaged over 40 one season against Hakeem AND Sampson (while averaging in the low 20's that season).

I'm not much on the post season awards but Kareem was on the "all defensive teams" 11 times

A guy like Wayne Rollins was one of the best defensive bigs for a long time as well. As good or better than Eaton.

Putting Howard on this list seems a bit premature since more of his career is in front of him rather than behind him....

You need to review the entire history of the NBA to do this right IMHO.... there are a lot of guys left off because they played outside of your window of following the game. Buck Williams was much better than either Duncan or Garnett at the PF position as a defender for example. Larry Nance was better in his prime as well.

It's hard for me to rate players I haven't seen so I went with the Dream since I saw him play in his prime, and he's the best defender I've seen personally. What he did to David Robinson and Shaq in the playoffs was a thing of beauty.

^^Oh.... no doubt.... but when it says "All Time" it should be All Time. It's a good opportunity for the younger members to do some research..... the game wasn't set shots and granny free throws in the 70's for example.....

Rooscooter wrote:Wow..... no Nate Thurmond or Kareem?.... bogus list without those two. Kareem literally changed games all the way until his final year on the defensive end.......

Nate Thurmond is considered by basketball insiders to be the greatest Center defender of all time..... Kareem himself said he was by far the most difficult to play against.....

A guy like Wayne Rollins was one of the best defensive bigs for a long time as well. As good or better than Eaton.

Putting Howard on this list seems a bit premature since more of his career is in front of him rather than behind him....

You need to review the entire history of the NBA to do this right IMHO.... there are a lot of guys left off because they played outside of your window of following the game. Buck Williams was much better than either Duncan or Garnett at the PF position as a defender for example.

I probably should have put Nate actually, although I still don't see him taking the #1 spot from Russell.

I have no problem if someone says Kareem is better defensively than the some players on the list (just not #1). However, I don't consider anyone else you just named better than anybody on the list.

If nobody else nominates another player, Nate will be put on the next poll.

thkthebest wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:Wow..... no Nate Thurmond or Kareem?.... bogus list without those two. Kareem literally changed games all the way until his final year on the defensive end.......

Nate Thurmond is considered by basketball insiders to be the greatest Center defender of all time..... Kareem himself said he was by far the most difficult to play against.....

A guy like Wayne Rollins was one of the best defensive bigs for a long time as well. As good or better than Eaton.

Putting Howard on this list seems a bit premature since more of his career is in front of him rather than behind him....

You need to review the entire history of the NBA to do this right IMHO.... there are a lot of guys left off because they played outside of your window of following the game. Buck Williams was much better than either Duncan or Garnett at the PF position as a defender for example.

I probably should have put Nate actually. Kareem is arguable, but I don't consider anyone else you just named better than anyone on the list.

If nobody else nominates another player, Nate will be put on the next poll.

Kareem arguable?.... OK.... you need to re-title this the Top Defensive Big Man of the last 15 years with a bone thrown to some of those guys I've read about once or twice......

What about Bill Walton?.... Charles Oakley and Rick Mahorn

Buck Williams was better than Garnet or Duncan as a defender and stayed in the league on his defense and rebounding alone.... Tree Rolins was every bit as good at Eaton if not better because he was mobile and played longer. Eaton was a shot blocker and not much else. Thurmond was the "Dick Butkus" of the NBA..... no one pushed him around and he didn't yield position to anyone. Maurice Lucas for that matter is as good as quite a few on this list....

Not going to argue about this simply because I think you are nitpicking about who should be in the top 10. I don't see it being a problem if someone considers any of the guys listed as being better than Kareem defensively (or vice versa). None of those guys are better than Russell so the outcome isn't going to change (or shouldn't change). If you think someone else should be in the top 10, you can nominate him to be put into the next poll.

So.... you put up a poll to get some verification that your choice is right?..... No debate allowed?...

Let me know who you think are the best in each of your upcoming polls so I don't waste my time.....

My point is that you're debating something that has no bearing on the results. If you created a poll with 10 players (which is the max allowed), I wouldn't be arguing that Duncan or Garnett should be in the top 10 above the likes of Kareem or whoever. This poll is about the best, not the top 10. I'll nominate either Duncan or Garnett (whoever you left off) to be put in the next poll and vote for Russell as the best.

And like I already said, in the poll for the 2nd greatest defensive big man, I will put Nate. I also don't want to do this because I want to maintain the structure, but if enough people agree with Rooscooter in that Kareem should also be in, I'll take out whoever CL believes to be the weakest link.

Edit: I'm surprised that Rodman is doing so well. I thought for sure that Russell would be the easy choice for #1.

I understand.... but your list of 10 needs to be revised significantly if you are going to use "All Time" in the poll.

Russell gets all the press and he probably is one of the two or three best but the problem with picking the best defensive PLAYER is that defense is a TEAM effort..... Offense is dominated by individuals.... Defense is not. People end up focusing on things like Blocks and Steals when they alone are not very good indicators of defense. Defense is positioning way before the ball gets anywhere near you..... there are no stats for that and very few recognize that fact.

Guys like Kareem, Thurmond and Walton all played much better positional defense than guys like Eaton, Mutombo or Robinson who blocked a lot of shots but were not physical defenders to say the least. Oakley, Williams, Lucas and Mahorn all were masters at not letting you even get a shot off.... again no stat for that..... Duncan and Garnet should not be in the "first round" over these guys IMHO..... but hey I only watched them all play....

I see what you mean as well, but I also really don't see it being a problem if I put any of these guys above the guys you listed. I don't think anyone else does either since nobody else has objected...yet. I named it "CL Edition" because it's going to be a list of who ClubLakers members believe are the best..even if that means that it might not the best list. Nobody nominated another player yet so I'm assuming that for the most part, they believe the players that are listed are fine. If our members vote more toward modern players, then that's who CLers think are the best...even if that doesn't always mean that it's right. For example, I 100% disagree with Rodman and don't even consider him top 5, but he might just win this thing. Lol.

Also, I think you're heavily underrating Garnett. I know that I'm higher on him than most people on this board, but he is one of the best when it comes to positioning. He's able to cut off drives with just his timing and positioning. For the past several seasons, I don't think there has been a better defender than Garnett when it comes to defending the pnr and I think he's really underrated when it comes to defense. He's a big man who can enforce the paint without having to block the shot.

Edit: After talking with Rooscooter, I am going to try to feature at least one player from each decade. I do realize that this is a bit too pro-modern. Nate Thurmond is the current nominee and will be in the next poll. I will also put in Kareem in place of Mutombo.

No Nate Thurmond or Dave Debusschere, in the argument for the best defensive C and Fwd, respectively, in the history of the game. I immediately disregard this poll.

Kareem said no one played him tougher then Nate Thurmond. I never saw him play though.

I really respect Roo's basketball opinion, but I disagree on Tree Rollins. I never felt he was anything special. Well, he did take a bite out of Danny Ainge's finger once in a NBA playoff fight (the 80s were so awesome), but other then that, ehhhh.....

At the end of the day, I gotta go with Rodman. He could honestly guard all 5 positions. The guy gave Shaq fits with his feet quickness and could cover the PG up the court. Defense is all about desire and passion and Rodman had it.

Where's Gilmore?

Phil XI wrote:Where's Gilmore?

I don't agree with this one. So far, the only pre-80s big man that I think I should have added is Kareem and Nate, who will be featured in the next poll.

I'm also guessing you also mean ABA Gilmore because nothing I have read, studied, or seen suggests that NBA Gilmore should be on the poll. I didn't watch 70s basketball, and everything in the 80s was post-injury so maybe someone who did watch 70s basketball can give some better insight but...

I don't think he's ever made an all-defensive first team in the NBA, and I see no possible justification to put a guy without a single all-defensive first team to be on the poll. Taking a look at how the team performed with him and without him also suggests that he shouldn't be on the poll since teams barely missed a beat on defense without him. Not to mention that he routinely anchored average to below average defenses.

Edit: Not saying that he's a bad defender though. I just don't think he should be above the guys on the list.

I'm going with Russell purely on biases. The man beat us so many times... His shot blocking ability was enormous. He was the best defender and best leader for that team... Ugh. I hate that guy.

Second would be Rodman. Yeah he was insane and yeah he was in the membrane, but he was a terrific defender and one of the hardest workers I've ever seen in professional sports. The guy was tremendous and tremendously underrated.

Third is just a toss between all of the other big men left... Kareem, Dream, Howard is on his way but let's revisit in a few years, Thurmond obviously, maybe give David Robinson that love. When we're talking all time defenders, I don't really think of Garnett and Duncan. I know they were very good defenders and built their career on that when they were younger, but they're so far removed from that it's difficult to even put them in this discussion for me. They haven't been elite defenders in years.

John3:16 wrote:Kareem said no one played him tougher then Nate Thurmond. I never saw him play though.

I really respect Roo's basketball opinion, but I disagree on Tree Rollins. I never felt he was anything special. Well, he did take a bite out of Danny Ainge's finger once in a NBA playoff fight (the 80s were so awesome), but other then that, ehhhh.....

I saw Thurmond a few times in my youth... My dad used to tell me that he was the toughest player of all time..... as a youngster that impressed me.... and he kind of had that crazy look to go along with the rep....

I proposed Rollins because I believe he changed games more than Eaton did at that position. Eaton was nailed to the floor... sure he blocked a ton of shots but he also was a sieve in man defense because of his lack of quickness and speed. If you think we have been bad at covering the pick and roll you needed to see those Jazz teams....

Rollins does get elevated a number of slots for biting Mainges finger.... The Hawks and Celtics had a few epic fights back in the 80's....