Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:21 pm

6 years from now if LeBron is still dominant and not even athletically since most players decline at that point significantly, at 34 if he's still playing at a high level my argument is pretty much dead and anyone else's for that matter. And it'll prove to me that his wasn't solely athleticism and taking what was given to him because he he's so big and powerful.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:38 pm

I don't know why Kevin Durant is thrown into the "Not even close" category because as I can recall he's the league's leading scorer and he's also shooting a pretty high percentage himself. Matter fact he's having a historic season as been said so I don't know why people are acting so "nonchalant" about him. He also said he doesn't want to be only known as a scorer like we assume he only is, and said he wants to be a "all around" player not just a scorer. So he could very much so in the future lead the league in a variety of categories, that's if that's his goal outside of winning a title. It also depends on if he wants to push his body to the limit like Kobe has over the years to have a prolonged career and be able to do that. Some players in this generation of basketball lack dedication, and too proud to ask older players for advice Like LeBron, Dwight and Kobe has done.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Maluco Beleza on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:00 pm

Jazzygirl205 wrote:I don't know why people are acting so "nonchalant" about him. .



And I don't know why alot of laker/kobe fans here are so nonchalant about Lebron.....
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Coach Chris on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:40 pm

revgen wrote:I agree with Payton. Imagine Ron Artest or Anthony Mason being allowed to put a hand on him at the top of the key where he typically likes to operate. He wouldn't be nearly as effective.


Lebron is stronger than both of them. In their last matchup Artest did try to hold Lebron with both hands when he blew by him, but Lebron just ran through him.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Coach Chris on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Jazzygirl205 wrote:I don't know why Kevin Durant is thrown into the "Not even close" category because as I can recall he's the league's leading scorer and he's also shooting a pretty high percentage himself. Matter fact he's having a historic season as been said so I don't know why people are acting so "nonchalant" about him. He also said he doesn't want to be only known as a scorer like we assume he only is, and said he wants to be a "all around" player not just a scorer. So he could very much so in the future lead the league in a variety of categories, that's if that's his goal outside of winning a title. It also depends on if he wants to push his body to the limit like Kobe has over the years to have a prolonged career and be able to do that. Some players in this generation of basketball lack dedication, and too proud to ask older players for advice Like LeBron, Dwight and Kobe has done.


In a comparison to Lebron it is all defense. Durant has the physical tools to be a good defender, he just hasn't become one.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:56 am

I'll give credit to LeBron in his crazy run-down-his defender-and-block-him move, which is pretty sensational. But is it really surprising that he "defends" so well when the refs in the game refuse to blow the whistle on him? Even I can do a pretty good job on big guys if you let me hit, slap, hold, and push them with impunity.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Scnottaken on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:35 am

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:I'll give credit to LeBron in his crazy run-down-his defender-and-block-him move, which is pretty sensational. But is it really surprising that he "defends" so well when the refs in the game refuse to blow the whistle on him? Even I can do a pretty good job on big guys if you let me hit, slap, hold, and push them with impunity.

I remember there was a stretch this season where he went a few games without picking up ONE foul. Pretty crazy considering how little you're allowed to touch him.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:30 am

As great as Lebron is , I'm still laughing at the fact the level of the competition is NEVER mentioned in these different eras discussions

I'm sure the 2012 OKC, 2012 Celtics , 2012 Pacers are as good as the 2000 Blazers , 2002 Kings , 2001-2005 Spurs were :man10: .

Playing in the Leastern Conf is a great advantage ... no matter how hard the Lebron stans want everybody to ignore this fact ...
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Congo Cash on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:42 am

Coach Chris wrote:In a comparison to Lebron it is all defense. Durant has the physical tools to be a good defender, he just hasn't become one.

LBJ is also easily the better passer and he doesn't take bad shots...
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby nameant on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:19 am

Say what you want about MJ's titles...but the 90's was PACKED with not just HOFers, but we're talking top 5 guys at their position, ever. Right now the league is becoming boring to watch. I've honestly seen ZERO games this season outside of Lakers games. All the best stars from the last decade are past their prime and even though there is some talent in the league, I don't think you can put the current stars in the same conversation as any of the stars from the 00's and DEFINITELY not from the 90's, 80's, etc. We're watching a league filled with pampered stars that are half as good as the past stars they were influenced by, and they all think they are owed championships.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Congo Cash on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:52 am

Ya, I tried watching the so-called exciting teams like the Clippers, Heat, and the Thunder but it's still boring...

Too many athletic freaks who lacks fundamentals... Too many "specialists", and too many busts...

Even the All-Star games are getting worse... Jrue Holiday, Tyson Chandler, Roy Hibbert, David Lee, Chris Kaman, Mehmet Okur, Josh Howards, just wow...
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby kobe_008 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:15 am

i just watched LBJ get blocked 2x and couldnt get a decent shot from my old man
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Juronimo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:18 pm

LakerFan1235 wrote:^Obviously I am biased when I say kobe can still hang, but are you being serious about Durant "not being close"?


You're right, "not being close" is an exaggeration on my part and perhaps a bit unfair. I still think there is a difference between Durant and Lebron. Durant isn't as efficient as Lebron. Durant can't defend the way Lebron can. Durant doesn't have Lebron's playmaking skills.

Durant is a great scorer and a great shooter, but he doesn't have Lebron's all around game, efficiency, or versatility.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:29 pm

nameant wrote:Say what you want about MJ's titles...but the 90's was PACKED with not just HOFers, but we're talking top 5 guys at their position, ever. Right now the league is becoming boring to watch. I've honestly seen ZERO games this season outside of Lakers games. All the best stars from the last decade are past their prime and even though there is some talent in the league, I don't think you can put the current stars in the same conversation as any of the stars from the 00's and DEFINITELY not from the 90's, 80's, etc. We're watching a league filled with pampered stars that are half as good as the past stars they were influenced by, and they all think they are owed championships.

Short list of fundamentally great NBA players who don't rely on athleticism:

1. Kobe
2. Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Rondo
5. Timmy
6. Tony Parker
7. KG
8. Kyrie
9. fine, LeBron
10. Harden
11. Wade
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Forklift on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:52 pm

nameant wrote:Say what you want about MJ's titles...but the 90's was PACKED with not just HOFers, but we're talking top 5 guys at their position, ever. Right now the league is becoming boring to watch. I've honestly seen ZERO games this season outside of Lakers games. All the best stars from the last decade are past their prime and even though there is some talent in the league, I don't think you can put the current stars in the same conversation as any of the stars from the 00's and DEFINITELY not from the 90's, 80's, etc. We're watching a league filled with pampered stars that are half as good as the past stars they were influenced by, and they all think they are owed championships.


that's what i always talk about with my friends. Bring back any elite player of the past and they would dominate the league. Bring an elite player now to the past and there are only a few exceptions. It's like when i watch Dwight Howard he just doesn't even come close to what Shaq was.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Coach Chris on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:10 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:As great as Lebron is , I'm still laughing at the fact the level of the competition is NEVER mentioned in these different eras discussions

I'm sure the 2012 OKC, 2012 Celtics , 2012 Pacers are as good as the 2000 Blazers , 2002 Kings , 2001-2005 Spurs were :man10: .

Playing in the Leastern Conf is a great advantage ... no matter how hard the Lebron stans want everybody to ignore this fact ...


Comparing eras is purely subjective, so I wouldn't bother.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:13 pm

^ Not really, when you have things like rule changes and the addition of a shot clock and 3 point line. Those are very tangible modifications in the game that clearly influences how players play.

But if you meant there is no common metric to easily distinguish production in the different eras, then sure.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:24 am

In a very, VERY small sample size (like 5-6 minutes), we saw Lebron get totally mentally taken out of his game when Kobe was allowed to play physical 80's defense against him in the ASG. Maybe Lebron wasn't expecting that kind of competitiveness during an exhibition game, I'll give him that. But, there may be some level of truth to him being mentally flustered when the refs let him be guarded physically.

I'd like to see how mentally strong he would be when today's flagrant 2s were merely regular fouls in the previous era, considering 80% of his game is attacking the basket. He certainly doesn't seem to have the mindset to lick his own blood and invite "bring it on" to rough play like Kobe or other players. Maybe he would have if that's all he knew by being born in the previous era? It's hard to speculate.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby therealdeal on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:16 am

Punk-101 wrote:In a very, VERY small sample size (like 5-6 minutes), we saw Lebron get totally mentally taken out of his game when Kobe was allowed to play physical 80's defense against him in the ASG. Maybe Lebron wasn't expecting that kind of competitiveness during an exhibition game, I'll give him that. But, there may be some level of truth to him being mentally flustered when the refs let him be guarded physically.

I'd like to see how mentally strong he would be when today's flagrant 2s were merely regular fouls in the previous era, considering 80% of his game is attacking the basket. He certainly doesn't seem to have the mindset to lick his own blood and invite "bring it on" to rough play like Kobe or other players. Maybe he would have if that's all he knew by being born in the previous era? It's hard to speculate.

Great point. He didn't really HAVE to play that way... maybe that's why he doesn't seem to have the same competitive fire that burned in guys like Kobe and Jordan.

That's not to say he's not competitive, but definitely you can see he's not the same. He doesn't NEED it. He just wants it really badly.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Finwë on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:45 am

Chillbongo wrote:
nameant wrote:Say what you want about MJ's titles...but the 90's was PACKED with not just HOFers, but we're talking top 5 guys at their position, ever. Right now the league is becoming boring to watch. I've honestly seen ZERO games this season outside of Lakers games. All the best stars from the last decade are past their prime and even though there is some talent in the league, I don't think you can put the current stars in the same conversation as any of the stars from the 00's and DEFINITELY not from the 90's, 80's, etc. We're watching a league filled with pampered stars that are half as good as the past stars they were influenced by, and they all think they are owed championships.

Short list of fundamentally great NBA players who don't rely on athleticism:

1. Kobe
2. Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Rondo
5. Timmy
6. Tony Parker
7. KG
8. Kyrie
9. fine, LeBron
10. Harden
11. Wade

Every one of those players except Duncan and maybe Garnett "relies" on their ahtleticism.. I would make a list of great and fundamentally sound players whose athleticism wasn't their biggest advantage:
Nash-Duncan-Dirk-Kobe-Paul-Irving-Lopez-Aldridge-Parker-Garnett-KD
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:30 am

I think you misunderstood my post.

Short list of fundamentally great players who don't solely rely on athleticism -- which is another way of saying "athleticism isn't their biggest advantage".

I left out Dirk & Nash because I'm not sure where they rank in terms of the NBA's elite today. KG still brings it, is still an All Star, along with Duncan. I was also sticking to current all stars a la Harden/Wade/LeBron/Durant...but I'm not saying they are fundamentally on the same level as the Kobe/CP3s/Duncans.

I guess that just shows that in today's NBA, some nice fundamentals and a lot of athleticism is enough to be elite.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby c.Lin on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:33 am

My opinion is that LeBron would adjust. He's never had to play against handchecking and more physical defense, but you can't honestly believe that a 6'8 260 lb freakishly athletic beast with his talent would just roll over and die. He might not have the same level of toughness as, say, a Kobe, but who does? I think LeBron has proven himself to be a competitor who is willing to step up to the challenge. Throw him in a league where he is forced to play against much more physical defenders and I believe he would adjust to get used to playing that style, and excel.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:40 am

^ I think Bron could play because he has a lot of talent. I don't think he would nearly as good though. He relies a ton on officiating. I mean just watch a game where it isn't a showcase game and you will see he gets away with murder on both sides of the floor. In the 80's he would be put on his *** more often than not when he tries to bulldoze folks in the hole. Hell the guy is the equivelant of Shaq as far as comparitive size amongst his peers but Shaq got hammered every single play. It's all speculative but I don't see him dominating in a more physical era but thats just me.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:43 am

therealdeal wrote:
Punk-101 wrote:In a very, VERY small sample size (like 5-6 minutes), we saw Lebron get totally mentally taken out of his game when Kobe was allowed to play physical 80's defense against him in the ASG. Maybe Lebron wasn't expecting that kind of competitiveness during an exhibition game, I'll give him that. But, there may be some level of truth to him being mentally flustered when the refs let him be guarded physically.

I'd like to see how mentally strong he would be when today's flagrant 2s were merely regular fouls in the previous era, considering 80% of his game is attacking the basket. He certainly doesn't seem to have the mindset to lick his own blood and invite "bring it on" to rough play like Kobe or other players. Maybe he would have if that's all he knew by being born in the previous era? It's hard to speculate.

Great point. He didn't really HAVE to play that way... maybe that's why he doesn't seem to have the same competitive fire that burned in guys like Kobe and Jordan.

That's not to say he's not competitive, but definitely you can see he's not the same. He doesn't NEED it. He just wants it really badly.

True. Competitive wasn't really the word that I was trying to describe though. "Intimidation" is what I was going for. Lebron's physical skills would translate pretty well to the previous era, though GP is right that he would be a tad bit more limited. What would cause his game to take a bigger hit, I speculate, is the mental aspect of his psyche. He's finally not intimidated by the pressure of the big moments, as he was up until last year. But even as recently as the past ASG, he quite possibly can be intimidated by physical and rough 80's play. Given enough time, could he overcome it? Probably. But there's a chance that he just doesn't have that psycho, impervious-to-intimidation mental make-up that Kobe, MJ, Zeke, Bird, and other ELITE greats have/had. Iverson had personality issues that prevented him from being an all time elite, but he was still one of the best scorers ever. He had the impervious-to-intimidation mental make-up that I'm talking about though. That little s*** would never stop atacking the paint even after a monster hard foul. It fueled him, like "f*** you, hit me again cause I'm not stopping." Remember the famous dusting off the shoulders that Kobe did? So bada**. Does Lebron have that? He'd need it to be as good as he is now in the previous era. He'd still be super-duper great, of course, but not what we're seeing now IMO.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:52 am

^I was thinking similar to that as well Punk. Great point. Someone else mentioned that we never hear about Lebrons failures anymore but he only recently even wanted the last shot of a game that wasn't a dunk. His mental has always been fragile. Could he have developed into what we see today having started in that era after 10 years of play? He very well could be more like Kwame and less like MJ.
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