Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby therealdeal on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:52 am

I suppose I'm connecting the two because the two aspects are usually inseparable. Someone who won't be intimidated is an ultimate competitor because they won't back away when the going gets rough (literally).

I'm with you on that. I have speculated that LeBron would have a tough time with Jordan because I'm not sure he could handle the ridicule that Jordan would spew at him. I'm not sure he'd handle the mental toughness it takes to play with or against a guy like that.

And of course like you said. Imagine if he were clotheslined a la Rambis. Or imagine if he were smashed to the floor a la Iverson or Bryant in those days. I just don't know if he'd mentally be alright with going back in there. I think it'd take some time at the very least. Being one of the more babied players the league has ever had takes a toll on someone's toughness. But given how physical he CAN be, I don't doubt he'd figure it out eventually.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Iceberg Slim on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:03 pm

Lets state some obvious facts...

There is still hand checking. Watch the games people. Especially in post play. Sure, there are rules against it. But they don't call hand checking and it happens all the time. Just like traveling in the NBA.

Gary Payton has a valid argument but moreso in defensive philosophies like "The Jordan Rules." I'd love to see Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars, and Isiah trip, elbow, and clothesline Lebron in midair like they used to in the 1980's against MJ. Lebron could take the physical beating. But I'm not sure how he'd handle that beating mentally. Those variables would change a lot in Bron's style of play...more jumpshots.

Lastly, Colin Cowherd made the point last week how intelligent defenses are now based on metrics, technology, and more importantly, zone defense. Thibs in Chicago has the most advanced defense of the modern age due to all these things. The NBA has never had this kind of sophistication. It's available now. And teams like Chicago and San Antonio have substituted brute for brains. And in this model, Lebron dominates.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby c.Lin on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:10 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:^ I think Bron could play because he has a lot of talent. I don't think he would nearly as good though. He relies a ton on officiating. I mean just watch a game where it isn't a showcase game and you will see he gets away with murder on both sides of the floor. In the 80's he would be put on his *** more often than not when he tries to bulldoze folks in the hole. Hell the guy is the equivelant of Shaq as far as comparitive size amongst his peers but Shaq got hammered every single play. It's all speculative but I don't see him dominating in a more physical era but thats just me.


I think it's unfair to assume he wouldn't be as good just because he's never been thrown into the fire like that. It's all about adjusting to the circumstances. He has grown a lot as a player over the years. I think his ability to bully his way to the hole is much more effective now that people have to respect his shot as well. His court vision and passing, IMO, would not be affected at all. Would he be as effective in the same ways if he played 20 years ago? Who knows. But I believe he would be able to make the necessary adjustments to play at a similar level.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 pm

^ It is now. He has worked on his game but by no means is he a "shooter".

Also, you have to consider momentum. People get confidence because of consistency...they get momentum. LeBron had a rough stretch to start his career but lately he's been performing consistently, giving him momentum to do it again and again. It's mental.

But how do you get the momentum? You have to consistently perform, and you have to see that today's refereeing and lack of physical defense benefits his ability to perform given his game and skill sets.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Weezy on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:00 pm

Sure there is still hand checking, but not if your name is LeBron or Durant (occasionally Chris Paul, Wade and a few others as well). Otherwise a lot of players are allowed to do it to stars, Kobe being of those that the rule doesn't seem to apply to, he's still held and absolutely ridden (just needs a saddle) on the perimeter like no other star in the game and it's allowed to happen.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Finwë on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:10 pm

Chillbongo wrote:I think you misunderstood my post.

Short list of fundamentally great players who don't solely rely on athleticism -- which is another way of saying "athleticism isn't their biggest advantage".

I left out Dirk & Nash because I'm not sure where they rank in terms of the NBA's elite today. KG still brings it, is still an All Star, along with Duncan. I was also sticking to current all stars a la Harden/Wade/LeBron/Durant...but I'm not saying they are fundamentally on the same level as the Kobe/CP3s/Duncans.

I guess that just shows that in today's NBA, some nice fundamentals and a lot of athleticism is enough to be elite.

I wouldn't put Wade or LeBron in that list. Their biggest advantage is still their athleticism
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Finwë on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:14 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:There is still hand checking. Watch the games people. Especially in post play. Sure, there are rules against it. But they don't call hand checking and it happens all the time. Just like traveling in the NBA.

Hand checking on the post isn't what we're talking about. We're talking constantly using your hands or forearm to slow down players when they are driving to the rim. THAT doesn't happen anymore, at least not frequently, and almost never against stars. They don't even allow a little body (hips) contact if the defender isn't standing still.

I posted something about the effect of true handchecking on a player like LeBron. I think it's the last post in page 1. I think it would definitely alter his effectiveness
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:41 am

Finwë wrote:
Iceberg Slim wrote:There is still hand checking. Watch the games people. Especially in post play. Sure, there are rules against it. But they don't call hand checking and it happens all the time. Just like traveling in the NBA.

Hand checking on the post isn't what we're talking about. We're talking constantly using your hands or forearm to slow down players when they are driving to the rim. THAT doesn't happen anymore, at least not frequently, and almost never against stars. They don't even allow a little body (hips) contact if the defender isn't standing still.

I posted something about the effect of true handchecking on a player like LeBron. I think it's the last post in page 1. I think it would definitely alter his effectiveness

This. You absolutely CANNOT put your hands on LeBron the way you could when defenses were allowed to be physical. No way. And like Finwe said, you can't even have some rudimentary physical contact most of the time on the perimeter. Kobe gets a lot of cheap fouls that way.

Defenses in the NBA might be more sophisticated, but they're certainly not as physical. Most YMCA gyms get more physical on the perimeter than some of these refs let NBA games get.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:39 am

Finwë wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:I think you misunderstood my post.

Short list of fundamentally great players who don't solely rely on athleticism -- which is another way of saying "athleticism isn't their biggest advantage".

I left out Dirk & Nash because I'm not sure where they rank in terms of the NBA's elite today. KG still brings it, is still an All Star, along with Duncan. I was also sticking to current all stars a la Harden/Wade/LeBron/Durant...but I'm not saying they are fundamentally on the same level as the Kobe/CP3s/Duncans.

I guess that just shows that in today's NBA, some nice fundamentals and a lot of athleticism is enough to be elite.

I wouldn't put Wade or LeBron in that list. Their biggest advantage is still their athleticism


Obviously LeBron's is but I'm giving him the BOD as an improved player int he post and on his jump shot.
But today' s Wade does not rely on athleticism. He's good at getting to the basket and finishing in the paint and that's all fundamentals -footwork, eurosteps, up and unders etc.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:00 pm

Wade has improved his game much more than LB IMO. Iwas impressed when we played them, the way his footwork and form help him get off quality shots. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby LALShowtime on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:17 pm

come on now you gotto be blind to think lebron is all athleticism, his skill level is off the charts

he might be the best non pg passer ever..his court vision is ridiculous. He has that pg vision and is a play-maker. I really think his athleticism is in such a freak level that it overshadows all his other skills.

i remember in the bulls series when he guarded deng in the perimeter, then boozer in the post later then derrick rose. All around wise not many players can interchange between the 1-4 like he can and be super effective doing so in both sides of the ball. Payton and those boys wouldn't know what to do with him.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:56 am

If you look at most of the positions in the current NBA a lot of them are filled with athletic players. The point guard position is not the same anymore. You have point guards who can dunk and get up high as well as power home many baskets aka Russell, Derrick, Nate Robinson who not too long ago won a slam dunk contest etc. I was reading Slamonline and they did a feature on Russell that mentioned the same exact thing I did about athletic point guards. This league is built for fastness,power and strength, basically super athletic studs with solid bodies. Those are gonna be your new breed of NBA players pretty soon. Look at Blake Griffin, big men like Serge Ibaka who's also fast athletic. These guys are so big and powerful and can bull dose past opponents.

If you look at the older point guards and players you'll see a little more finesse, grace and a little more precision. Look at the fans, they don't gravitate towards players who are more finesse and old school, they like these new breed of players. They're more exciting to watch and look at. Fans like the power, dunks and excitement in today's game. This generation would love Vince Carter back in the day lol.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Pig Miller on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:05 pm

for those bringing up the hand checking ordeal and how it would slow him down, that may be true or may be not. i still can't think of many players who would be able to handle him.

lebron on defense with the legal hand check would be scary. who would get around him? i'd be more interested in seeing him on the defensive side with the hand check rules than on offense.

also, offensively, without zone defenses, once he got a step on his man, he'd have so much more space to operate.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:24 pm

^ I'm sorry Pig but Lebron is not a great man defender. He has improved over the last two years but his defense is highly overrated (or at least slightly overrated).

The real issue I see with Bron is that it took him 8 years to gain confidence. Even Skip the clueless talked about how he wouldn't attack the paint to win a game even though he has the size and speed advantage over 90% (or more) of the guys defending him. My contention is the LBJ we see today would not be the same having to play his first years in that era. Again, it is speculative but I have not been so entranced by the great King as most.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby halekulani on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:36 pm

old fogies

we walked 5 miles thru the snow blah blah blah
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby halekulani on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:39 pm

physical doesn't mean better defense
today you actually have to move your feet and stay in front of your man

you transplant players of today who aren't allowed to push/grab/shove and put them in an era that you can, and they will go beastmode on defense because they are granted what they consider gifts. they've refined all the REAL defensive skills down already because of today's rules.

and rofl, defenses in the 80s were giving up 110 ppg. they weren't really playing 'defense' when half the game was all in transition. it was simply a sprint for 48 minutes. the game has evolved dramatically since.

as for lebron not being able to do what he does because his defender will grab and pull? please. last time kobe had single coverage all game he dropped 81.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Pig Miller on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:52 am

puff, here's a few more items from my perspective. and believe me, i'm no big lebron fan. in fact, i despise anyone that doesn't play in purple and gold.

1) anyone that is asked to guard 1-5, as lebron has done is a great defender. he gets asked to guard hibbert, then is asked to guard rose. he put the clamps down on a healthy rose and put that team in its place.

2) i don't think it's a confidence issue with him taking it to the basket. (side note: you're better than skip bayless, no one should ever use him to make a point). my contentino is that he doesn't have the killer instinct of kobe or jordan. also, this also plays into the zone defense of this era. in the 90's, you couldn't have 3 guys on one side of the lane guarding air space, so it'd take guys a few more steps to help. nowadays, there's 3 guys in your face if you're an elite player. we've been seeing it with kobe for the last 10 years.

3) let's say lebron did play in the 90's, who besides jordan, pippen, or rodman would even have a shot at slowing him down? (let me know if you think there's some obvious ones i'm missing). players back in the day were much more honed in to their one position. nowadays, your 4 might be your best shooter, and your 3 the best ball handler. no defined roles based on positions anymore.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby nameant on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:55 am

halekulani wrote:and rofl, defenses in the 80s were giving up 110 ppg. they weren't really playing 'defense' when half the game was all in transition. it was simply a sprint for 48 minutes. the game has evolved dramatically since.


So you just admitted the game was played at a much faster pace yet claim the high scoring was because lack of defense? The reasons teams scored more is because your average player knew the fundamentals of the game and could hit an open shot. Unlike today where the game is either about launching 3's or overdribbling.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby Weezy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:54 am

halekulani wrote:old fogies

we walked 5 miles thru the snow blah blah blah


I'm not an old fogey, I'm 28, I watched the NBA from '93 on, it was a different game. More superstars, more men, less kids, wayyyy more defense allowed, way tougher, not the weak NBA the league has become. I can't speak to the 80's because I didn't watch them, but Payton IMO is right, LeBron would have it it a lot tougher in his era, everyone today would. This mentality of mocking "old fogies" is laughable though, actual older folks aren't delusional and think everything old is better or harder, they have just seen it all and can speak to that and know what they are talking about, while younger people think everything new truly is better and that history means nothing. Kids today are so disrespectful it makes me sick. Older people aren't always right, but at least their opinion is based on things they've actually seen, instead of like kids today taking out of their backsides.
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Re: Gary Payton: LeBron Wouldn't Be As Good In Our Era

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:35 am

I think what's most frustrating about this thread is that most of the people saying LeBron would have it tougher are giving him the credit that he'd STILL BE GREAT. No one is taking that away from him at this point. He's amazing and he's incredibly gifted.

All we're TRYING to say is that he'd have a TOUGHER time. What's wrong with that? Is that so ludicrous to imagine? We deserve to get mocked because he would still be great, but he'd have a tougher time? What's wrong with you people?
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