Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas
3
6%
Hakeem Olajuwon
40
93%
 
Total votes : 43

Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:10 am

I meant, as far as lurking, I shoulda said that. I look on here once every blue moon. I was searching the net for this comparison, and this came up. There are very good posters and discussions here, and this just pushed me over the top. Strange uppage, I know, but it beats making a duplicate thread
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:12 am

Anyways, I pick Thomas as being the (slightly) better player, and I'll give my personal take on this:

Zeke went through tougher competition, in a tougher era to get his titles and doing this w/o a dominant big man, and I feel had a better feel for the game than Olajuwon, with Olajuwon relying more on his athletic ability. As skilled as Olajuon was, You don't get extra points for style. Thomas sacrificed his numbers for the better of the team and wanted to win at all costs; he understood that winning and losing were team accomplishments; he didn't throw his teammates under the bus like Olajuwon did. He could've burned a hole in the record books scoring, but he prioritized his team. Like Duncan, and Russell, etc, he put his teammates in positions they could thrive in, and made their jobs easier. Ppl say he had a stacked team, but in all honestly that was a situation that was apart of his creation. He kept everyone fed and interested on offense; that ship sailed and sunk with Zeke.

I don't want to seem like I'm bashing here but I feel as though Olajuwon's career tends to get glossed over in these situations. Akeem for a while was a selfish headcase, that feuded with teammates, feuded with management, feuded with referees, he was an angry instigator-- he was in trade talks with Boston at one point for Reggie Lewis, and some thought that that would be a bad move for Boston. He even was accused of faking an injury, and quitting on his team due to a contract dispute in '92. I'll be fair though, once he found Allah, and finally decided to take things in his own hands, and threatened to leave, he finally found his much deserved success. For those two-three years, he had Clutch City rocking, and was playing at an outstanding level.

Part of the reason that Houston team was so short-lived in the 80's was due to everyone on that team tasting success, and wanting their own numbers, the leader of that team Olajuwon included (along with drugs, and Ralph's fall @ the Garden, I'm aware). Again, seeing both players play, Thomas' leadership, his heart, the way his personality resonated with the coaches, to the last player on the bench, understanding of the game, his heart, and what he achieved, while being 6'1 at best in a league for bigs,was just a treat to watch, and comparing him to someone like Olajuwon, while it's really close, I feel as though he's the better player. 4 straight years of 20-10 (how many players can say they've done that?), and a few fractions from having averaged this his entire career. He led his team to three straight finals, two 'chips, and was a call away from having 2 finals mvps, n 3 rings.

Isiah had as many AS game selections in less years; every year of his career in fact, until his last season

Was an NBA champion before the age of 30

Actually led a 60-win team, in a tougher conference

Made the All-NBA rookie first team, and immediately led his team to a near 20 win improvement, quickly illustrating his impact, and putting his stamp on the league

Has twice the All-Star Game MVPs; multiple times outperforming the best of the best, and mind you this was when the All-Star game was taken more seriously

Made the playoffs more often, never missing them in his prime. He also led his team to a state title game in high school, and lead his team in college as well to a title. He won on all levels. I believe ESPN (for what that's worth) ranked his Finals performance in '90 7th all-time if I'm not mistaken. Not taking away Olajuwon's accomplishments (as I'm already aware, MVP, DPOY, etc) but slightly, I'd rank Zeke ahead of Akeem
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby KareemTheGreat33 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:13 am

Akeem, gonna watch Coming to America
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:57 am

How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Juronimo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:02 pm

I don't think it's a given that Jordan's team would have beaten Hakeem's Rockets.

Hakeem's 1995 playoff performance is the most dominant playoff performance I've seen from anyone. He owned on both sides of the ball. Based on that I have to side with Dream.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:27 pm

I think Isiah just might be the most underrated great in history. He did win rings at the toughest era in history. MJ's Bulls couldn't get over the Pistons for years. The Pistons were one win away from a 3 peat. And Isiah was clearly "the man" of that team. The guy was a killer. He would rip your heart out if you let him. Youtube vids of him getting into fist fights with Cartwright and Mahorn. Or getting a cheap elbow in the head from Malone.

But having sad that, I rate Olajuwon higher. To me, he's the 2nd greatest C ever behind Kareem. But I think he was the most complete C ever. He really had no weakness. His footwork and agility is legendary. That's why Kobe, LeBron and a host of other stars ask him for advice in the post. He dominated in the most center rich era in history. He schooled the likes of Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon on his way to championships.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:31 pm

^^^ he schooled himself? :man4:

:man10:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Frank Dux on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:05 pm

Hakeem. He is the easier player to build around, and won a title with a pretty limited supporting cast. Basically 4 jump shooter with and Hakeem as the main post threat in a 4-1 scheme. Hakeem is one of the best post up players ever, with textbook footwork. Not only is he one of the best offensive centers of all time, he was also a great, dominant defender. He's possibly the best 2 way player of all time.

He also dominated other matchups against marquee centers like Shaq and David Robinson. He was the real deal.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:44 pm

John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.


:beer:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby thkthebest on Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:30 pm

I think it's pretty clearly Hakeem. A lot of people are mentioning his offensive game and footwork, which just goes to emphasize how good he really is because his defensive game is one of the best in NBA history.

Even during the championship runs, Isiah Thomas had less MVP votes than Hakeem. He actually had the same amount of points as Dumars. Lulz. Nobody considered him this elite player. He didn't even make an all-nba team those seasons. He was on a stacked team with one of the best defenses ever.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:23 pm

thkthebest wrote:I think it's pretty clearly Hakeem. A lot of people are mentioning his offensive game and footwork, which just goes to emphasize how good he really is because his defensive game is one of the best in NBA history.

Even during the championship runs, Isiah Thomas had less MVP votes than Hakeem. He actually had the same amount of points as Dumars. Lulz. Nobody considered him this elite player. He didn't even make an all-nba team those seasons. He was on a stacked team with one of the best defenses ever.


Moses Malone has more MVP's than Kobe Bryant, as does Nash, so let's just go ahead and say they're the better players :beer:

And Akeem was always scoring at an equal, or even greater clip than he was in his title runs, yet routinely was getting waxed in the quarterfinals, so obviously scoring isn't everything. And I don't think it was a coincidence that once Zeke bad-mouthed Bird, he never saw another All-NBA team again, nor was his impact in the MVP rankings as high.

I believe the myth that Thomas was a sieve on defense, and wasn't a good defender stems from the fact that Dumars would take on the other team's best wing player, which, well, hardly ANY team's best offensive player, goes out and guards the other teams best offensive player as well, only so few ppl in NBA history have that kind of energy and durability. What also didn't help was the last memory of a hobbled, ready-to-retire Zeke getting torched by Anfernee right before his last season-- last game in fact. Thomas would sometimes have trouble with being hedged on pick and rolls, particularly with the bigger guys, however he stayed in front of his man more often than not pretty well, had good awareness in knowing when to shade someone in the post and double, he was a decent help defender. He was quick enough to run out to the perimeter when he was helping double in the post, and had the basic fundamentals of knowing when to sag off non-shooters, and crowd shooters.

I remember they did a segment about the Pistons on a CBS game in the day, and a focal point was their defense. While Thomas wasn't the anchor, he was very much a communicator, and it was shown in that practice, how they'd operate during pick-and-rolls for instance, such as when guarding 1's that could shoot like Price, to go over the pick, and when the big (Daugherty for example) would cut to the basket, to have Salley, or Laimbeer, or Worm, or Edwards or whomever anticipate this, and rotate to cut off their lane. If Joe was guarding someone like Toney, then Thomas would guard Maurice. I'm at work right now, and can't post any YouTube links, but I'll post a video later in a game Zeke guarded Mo Cheeks, youlll see that he did a pretty good job guarding Maurice; he usually always did from what I remember. Plus it's not to be forgotten how much of a disruption Zeke was in the passing lanes. He gambled some, sure, but he was quick in intercepting passes, stripping post players on doubles, and was good at crowding and harrassing his man, at times stopping dribble penetration, although he was sometimes blown by

Defense, which was the Detroit Pistons calling card during their title runs, they weren't that special offensively. For how much his defense helped him, he was just as important on the offensive side; he's the one that ran that offense, and kept it firing on all cylinders, and everyone fed. For as good as Dantley was, he was a blackhole in the worst sense, and refused to pass, or play defense. Isiah saw that this was disrupting their offense, and not keeping everyone involved and fed, and played a key role, along with Daly of course, in trading him for Aguirre, a player that played into what Thomas was asking of his teammates.

Like Bird in Boston, Malone in Utah, and Rose in Chicago, for as good as though teams are/were defensively, they weren't doing anything after their best players left. Just like with Bill Russell and those Boston teams; VERY talented offensively, but weren't winning anything before or after Russell's arrival.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:43 pm

John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.


The thing with Olajuwon I'm starting to notice, is that the opinions of him gradually become more and more extreme. Whenever he loses, it's not his fault, he was playing with scrubs, yet when he wins, he gets all the glory, and gets accredited to playing with scrubs. He could score on triple teams, soar the length of the court, and block shots without breaking a sweat, and could shake his way out of a straight jacket. Compare him with LeBron and he'll win that poll with ease. Start a thread comparing him to Duncan and they'll say he was five times better at literally every skill in existence. Start a thread comparing him to Jordan and they'll take Olajuwon. Compare him to anyone else, still Olajuwon. Pit him 1-on-5 against an all-time team, still Olajuwon. Pit him in the Olympics by himself, still Olajuwon. First pick in an All-Time draft, Akeem Olajuwon. Any blemishes on his career - believe it or not, he has them - are conveniently wiped away from existence and attributed to some other BS. He has become so comically overrated by tons of folks who want to act like they're the smartest person in the room that it's downright sickening.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby noobiew on Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:58 am

Hakeem Olajuwon, comfortably
Michael Jordan : "My Chicago team are the all-time greatest"
Magic Johnson : "Put me with Kareem, James Worthy, Cooper and Byron Scott, and we'd dominate your Bulls team"
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:02 am

PeediSigel wrote:
John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.


The thing with Olajuwon I'm starting to notice, is that the opinions of him gradually become more and more extreme. Whenever he loses, it's not his fault, he was playing with scrubs, yet when he wins, he gets all the glory, and gets accredited to playing with scrubs. He could score on triple teams, soar the length of the court, and block shots without breaking a sweat, and could shake his way out of a straight jacket. Compare him with LeBron and he'll win that poll with ease. Start a thread comparing him to Duncan and they'll say he was five times better at literally every skill in existence. Start a thread comparing him to Jordan and they'll take Olajuwon. Compare him to anyone else, still Olajuwon. Pit him 1-on-5 against an all-time team, still Olajuwon. Pit him in the Olympics by himself, still Olajuwon. First pick in an All-Time draft, Akeem Olajuwon. Any blemishes on his career - believe it or not, he has them - are conveniently wiped away from existence and attributed to some other BS. He has become so comically overrated by tons of folks who want to act like they're the smartest person in the room that it's downright sickening.


And you seem to be on the other end of the spectrum where you can't give him enough credit. He is the only man to win titles during Jordan's championship reign. We can talk about different scenarios of what would've happened had Barkley, Robinson, Ewing or Shaq, etc or any other great player from that era had won during that two year window when MJ was out instead of Olajuwon. But they didn't and Olajuwon did. He saw and he conquered them all. He played in maybe the toughest era for centers and he schooled other all time great centers. That type of stuff counts for a lot. Who can ever forget his undressing of the regular season MVP Robinson in that one playoff series? That's legendary stuff. The type of stuff that will be talked about 50 years from now. The guy was already a great C before he won rings but after his back to back runs, he cemented himself amongst the all time greats. That's how greats are measured in basketball.

As for his game, I don't think there was anymore more complete. He was the best two way player ever along with Kareem. I mean you know you got some serious footwork when other all time greats want lessons from you. And this guy is a center teach guards/forwards about footwork!!! It's supposed to be the other way around. If you had to draw up the perfect C in terms of physical attributes, Olajuwon would be it. His lower body footwork and agility was simply off the charts. He took guys off the dribble on a regular basis!!! Centers aren't supposed to do that.

I think Olajuwon is one of the top 12-15 players of all time. Do you disagree with this ranking?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:18 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.


The thing with Olajuwon I'm starting to notice, is that the opinions of him gradually become more and more extreme. Whenever he loses, it's not his fault, he was playing with scrubs, yet when he wins, he gets all the glory, and gets accredited to playing with scrubs. He could score on triple teams, soar the length of the court, and block shots without breaking a sweat, and could shake his way out of a straight jacket. Compare him with LeBron and he'll win that poll with ease. Start a thread comparing him to Duncan and they'll say he was five times better at literally every skill in existence. Start a thread comparing him to Jordan and they'll take Olajuwon. Compare him to anyone else, still Olajuwon. Pit him 1-on-5 against an all-time team, still Olajuwon. Pit him in the Olympics by himself, still Olajuwon. First pick in an All-Time draft, Akeem Olajuwon. Any blemishes on his career - believe it or not, he has them - are conveniently wiped away from existence and attributed to some other BS. He has become so comically overrated by tons of folks who want to act like they're the smartest person in the room that it's downright sickening.


And you seem to be on the other end of the spectrum where you can't give him enough credit. He is the only man to win titles during Jordan's championship reign. We can talk about different scenarios of what would've happened had Barkley, Robinson, Ewing or Shaq, etc or any other great player from that era had won during that two year window when MJ was out instead of Olajuwon. But they didn't and Olajuwon did. He saw and he conquered them all. He played in maybe the toughest era for centers and he schooled other all time great centers. That type of stuff counts for a lot. Who can ever forget his undressing of the regular season MVP Robinson in that one playoff series? That's legendary stuff. The type of stuff that will be talked about 50 years from now. The guy was already a great C before he won rings but after his back to back runs, he cemented himself amongst the all time greats. That's how greats are measured in basketball.

As for his game, I don't think there was anymore more complete. He was the best two way player ever along with Kareem. I mean you know you got some serious footwork when other all time greats want lessons from you. And this guy is a center teach guards/forwards about footwork!!! It's supposed to be the other way around. If you had to draw up the perfect C in terms of physical attributes, Olajuwon would be it. His lower body footwork and agility was simply off the charts. He took guys off the dribble on a regular basis!!! Centers aren't supposed to do that.

I think Olajuwon is one of the top 12-15 players of all time. Do you disagree with this ranking?


I'm of the end of the specturm, where I realize Akeem had the best collection of veteran talent in the 90's, next to Michael. I give him his props for holdin' it down on both ends; he had a lotta responsibility. However his cast doesn't get enough credit, as he had Horry, a man that routinely stepped it up in the clutch, gave great floor spacing, great defense; a truly reliable role player in every sense of the word, and was ultimately almost as important for Los Angeles' title in '02 then the famed 1-2 punch of Shaquille and Kobe. If i'm not mistaken he even was the bridesmaid to the Finals MVP in '95. Then there was Mario Elie, Mad Max, Otis Thorpe, Sam I Am, Kenny Smith, man he had a TEAM! In '95, he had almost 5 guys average double figures, and they were arguably the league's best defense in '94.

Of all the teams he beat those two years, I'd confidently say he had the better team. Why does he get credit for beating teams he's supposed to beat? His team was dealing with injuries in '95, and they acquired Drexler after the AS break, so I could care less about what he did in those playoffs on the road. We wouldn't be giving Jordan that kind of praise for beating teams he's supposed to, even if on the road , so it doesn't make sense to gvie Olajuwon praise about it, unless we're admitting maybe he wasn't as good as we thought, if there was to be doubt, not having too high expectations of him.

And people give too much credence to that one series aganist the Admiral, I doubt a lotta people even watched the series. I'm not saying Robinson wasn't floored, however many just gloss over the fact that Robinson was guarding Olajuwon on an island, while having to deal with double and triple teams on the other end. Didn't of course help that Rodman was playing lazy center field on Horry that series, and refused to guard Olajwuon, and refused to help even double. :disagree: Take at look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=ewingpa01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=abdulka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=malonka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=mchalke01

These are his H2H's against six different big men, from 3 different eras. As you can see, he's not "conquering" anyone, nor was he considered head and shoulders against these guys, much less better. While the numbers are very close, he has a LOSING record against every single one of them. While part of this is team, with the numbers being so close, this has to be taken into consideration. The only player he has a clear advantage on is Ewing, but big Pat battled him even in the W/L department. That's a whole lotta "domination", not to mention all the third teams he has, lol I doubt he woulda made the 1st team in '96 either if David hadn't got injured.

And Wilt unquestionably in my mind is the most complete big ever, with Alcindor unquestionably being ahead, and I'd argue Garnett as well. You know, top 15 seems to be pretty high for Olajuwon, as there's been a lotta great players. I 'd say top 20-25

EDIT: Oh, and the 70's was the best decade for 5's by FAR, not even close
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:18 pm

.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:23 pm

Why didn't Jordan run off 6 straight instead of 3? Because Isiah's Detroit team beat Chicago 3 straight years!!!

Do yourselves a favor and watch this outstanding presentation made by ESPN:



I love this video because it was created very unbiased. They show the greatness of Isiah, as well as all the bad.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:47 pm

Image

^This guy is Isaiah Thomas

Image

^This guy is Isiah Thomas

So yeah, no doubt I take Hakeem Olajuwon over Isaiah Thomas :man9:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:37 am

PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.


The thing with Olajuwon I'm starting to notice, is that the opinions of him gradually become more and more extreme. Whenever he loses, it's not his fault, he was playing with scrubs, yet when he wins, he gets all the glory, and gets accredited to playing with scrubs. He could score on triple teams, soar the length of the court, and block shots without breaking a sweat, and could shake his way out of a straight jacket. Compare him with LeBron and he'll win that poll with ease. Start a thread comparing him to Duncan and they'll say he was five times better at literally every skill in existence. Start a thread comparing him to Jordan and they'll take Olajuwon. Compare him to anyone else, still Olajuwon. Pit him 1-on-5 against an all-time team, still Olajuwon. Pit him in the Olympics by himself, still Olajuwon. First pick in an All-Time draft, Akeem Olajuwon. Any blemishes on his career - believe it or not, he has them - are conveniently wiped away from existence and attributed to some other BS. He has become so comically overrated by tons of folks who want to act like they're the smartest person in the room that it's downright sickening.


And you seem to be on the other end of the spectrum where you can't give him enough credit. He is the only man to win titles during Jordan's championship reign. We can talk about different scenarios of what would've happened had Barkley, Robinson, Ewing or Shaq, etc or any other great player from that era had won during that two year window when MJ was out instead of Olajuwon. But they didn't and Olajuwon did. He saw and he conquered them all. He played in maybe the toughest era for centers and he schooled other all time great centers. That type of stuff counts for a lot. Who can ever forget his undressing of the regular season MVP Robinson in that one playoff series? That's legendary stuff. The type of stuff that will be talked about 50 years from now. The guy was already a great C before he won rings but after his back to back runs, he cemented himself amongst the all time greats. That's how greats are measured in basketball.

As for his game, I don't think there was anymore more complete. He was the best two way player ever along with Kareem. I mean you know you got some serious footwork when other all time greats want lessons from you. And this guy is a center teach guards/forwards about footwork!!! It's supposed to be the other way around. If you had to draw up the perfect C in terms of physical attributes, Olajuwon would be it. His lower body footwork and agility was simply off the charts. He took guys off the dribble on a regular basis!!! Centers aren't supposed to do that.

I think Olajuwon is one of the top 12-15 players of all time. Do you disagree with this ranking?


I'm of the end of the specturm, where I realize Akeem had the best collection of veteran talent in the 90's, next to Michael. I give him his props for holdin' it down on both ends; he had a lotta responsibility. However his cast doesn't get enough credit, as he had Horry, a man that routinely stepped it up in the clutch, gave great floor spacing, great defense; a truly reliable role player in every sense of the word, and was ultimately almost as important for Los Angeles' title in '02 then the famed 1-2 punch of Shaquille and Kobe. If i'm not mistaken he even was the bridesmaid to the Finals MVP in '95. Then there was Mario Elie, Mad Max, Otis Thorpe, Sam I Am, Kenny Smith, man he had a TEAM! In '95, he had almost 5 guys average double figures, and they were arguably the league's best defense in '94.

Of all the teams he beat those two years, I'd confidently say he had the better team. Why does he get credit for beating teams he's supposed to beat? His team was dealing with injuries in '95, and they acquired Drexler after the AS break, so I could care less about what he did in those playoffs on the road. We wouldn't be giving Jordan that kind of praise for beating teams he's supposed to, even if on the road , so it doesn't make sense to gvie Olajuwon praise about it, unless we're admitting maybe he wasn't as good as we thought, if there was to be doubt, not having too high expectations of him.

And people give too much credence to that one series aganist the Admiral, I doubt a lotta people even watched the series. I'm not saying Robinson wasn't floored, however many just gloss over the fact that Robinson was guarding Olajuwon on an island, while having to deal with double and triple teams on the other end. Didn't of course help that Rodman was playing lazy center field on Horry that series, and refused to guard Olajwuon, and refused to help even double. :disagree: Take at look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=ewingpa01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=abdulka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=malonka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=mchalke01

These are his H2H's against six different big men, from 3 different eras. As you can see, he's not "conquering" anyone, nor was he considered head and shoulders against these guys, much less better. While the numbers are very close, he has a LOSING record against every single one of them. While part of this is team, with the numbers being so close, this has to be taken into consideration. The only player he has a clear advantage on is Ewing, but big Pat battled him even in the W/L department. That's a whole lotta "domination", not to mention all the third teams he has, lol I doubt he woulda made the 1st team in '96 either if David hadn't got injured.

And Wilt unquestionably in my mind is the most complete big ever, with Alcindor unquestionably being ahead, and I'd argue Garnett as well. You know, top 15 seems to be pretty high for Olajuwon, as there's been a lotta great players. I 'd say top 20-25

EDIT: Oh, and the 70's was the best decade for 5's by FAR, not even close


The Rockets in one of the championship years were the 5th or 6th seed IIRC. And I think you overrate the talent on those Rocket teams. Sure, they did have very good veterans and you need help to win it all but it was Hakeem carrying the load. He is one of the few players in history to win a ring without another legit star. I don't count Drexler in their 2nd one cause Drexler was clearly past his prime. That is a huge burden to carry and he did it.

The bottom line is the guy has two rings and took down other great centers of his era to do it. Beating the Knicks (Ewing) and Magic (Shaq) in the Finals. The guy averaged 29 and 33 ppg respectively during those two years in the playoffs. The guy elevated his game to another level and only because he played at such a high level were his teams able to squeeze by other great teams. His Rockets weren't supposed to beat the Spurs when Robinson won the regular season MVP and his Spurs had the best record in the league. And I think the Rockets were down 3-1 in a series or two and had to come back. That just shows the grit and character of the team. These guys had to fight. There was nothing superior about their talent base. There were a lot of very good teams during that time.

And I don't know what your definition of most complete is but Wilt should not be in any conversation of most complete C ever. He was a Shaq like presence on the inside and had very little game outside of a few feet. He couldn't sniff Hakeem's jock straps when it comes to doing it all. Hakeem could face you up from 15 feet and drive by you. He had a great turn around. A good face up jumper. And his pivot work was legendary. The guy was the most complete C ever.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:20 am

^^21.4, 7 and 4.4 in the LONE championship season Drexler played with the Rockets….. arguably his 3rd or 4th best overall season is hardly "past his prime". Drexler's addition was a huge burden off Hakeem's shoulders.

Also…. if you look at those two seasons and the injuries that the Rockets suffered during the regular season you'll find that explains their record and seeding.

Hakeem was one of the best ever, I don't dispute that, but those two seasons were remarkably unique in that the level of competition in the league was fairly low compared with other "era's". ORL had no answer for the two of them in the finals. Of the two….. Hakeem was 5 points a game above his season average….while Drexler was a smidgen above his as well….. 21.5, 9.5 and 6.8 are stats just about any superstar would love to have in a finals series….. much less just a "supporting star clearly past his prime"…...
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:39 am

Rooscooter wrote:^^21.4, 7 and 4.4 in the LONE championship season Drexler played with the Rockets….. arguably his 3rd or 4th best overall season is hardly "past his prime". Drexler's addition was a huge burden off Hakeem's shoulders.

Also…. if you look at those two seasons and the injuries that the Rockets suffered during the regular season you'll find that explains their record and seeding.

Hakeem was one of the best ever, I don't dispute that, but those two seasons were remarkably unique in that the level of competition in the league was fairly low compared with other "era's". ORL had no answer for the two of them in the finals. Of the two….. Hakeem was 5 points a game above his season average….while Drexler was a smidgen above his as well….. 21.5, 9.5 and 6.8 are stats just about any superstar would love to have in a finals series….. much less just a "supporting star clearly past his prime"…...


Drexler was clearly past his prime when he went to the Rockets. His prime was in the last 80's and early 90's with the Blazers, who I personally think were one of the best teams ever not to win a ring. But I agree that Drexler was a "star" in the 2nd championship Olajuwon won. But it does little to take away from how dominant Olajuwon was during those two playoff runs.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:01 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:The Rockets in one of the championship years were the 5th or 6th seed IIRC. And I think you overrate the talent on those Rocket teams. Sure, they did have very good veterans and you need help to win it all but it was Hakeem carrying the load. He is one of the few players in history to win a ring without another legit star. I don't count Drexler in their 2nd one cause Drexler was clearly past his prime. That is a huge burden to carry and he did it.



Who did Isiah have? Rodman was in his 3rd and 4th years when they won titles and he was far from the defensive / rebounding machine he grew in to. Him and Salley came off the bench to provide energy and little else. No one else on those teams is sniffing the Hall of Fame. Isiah would've loved to have someone like Drexler to pass to and help carry the offensive load.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:18 pm

John3:16 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:The Rockets in one of the championship years were the 5th or 6th seed IIRC. And I think you overrate the talent on those Rocket teams. Sure, they did have very good veterans and you need help to win it all but it was Hakeem carrying the load. He is one of the few players in history to win a ring without another legit star. I don't count Drexler in their 2nd one cause Drexler was clearly past his prime. That is a huge burden to carry and he did it.



Who did Isiah have? Rodman was in his 3rd and 4th years when they won titles and he was far from the defensive / rebounding machine he grew in to. Him and Salley came off the bench to provide energy and little else. No one else on those teams is sniffing the Hall of Fame. Isiah would've loved to have someone like Drexler to pass to and help carry the offensive load.


Umm, Joe Dumars is in the Hall of Fame. And he won a Finals MVP. And at that time, he was considered maybe the best one on one defender against Jordan. He was a star. And although Rodman wasn't the dominating rebounder he was later in his career, he was a shut down defender already. And you add in great complimentary pieces like Laimbeer, Salley, Edwards, Aguirre, Vinnie, Dantley, Mahorn, etc, and you have one of the meanest, toughest defensive teams ever. These guys prevented Jordan from advancing in the playoffs several years in a row. They won rings in the toughest era ever.

Hey, i'm with you. I think Isiah is one the most underrated greats ever. But he did have help.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:29 pm

Forgot to add that Dantley is also in the Hall of Fame. He came on board at the tail end of his career but was important in their first ring. And he is one of the best scorers of his era. And Aguirre was also a very good player. Not Hall of Fame but definitely an All-Star for several years.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:38 pm

^^^ Dantley wasn't on those championship teams. They traded him for Mark Aguirre in the middle of the season of first title. I didn't know Dumars was in the Hall of Fame. I'm really surprised he is. Great defender, but Hall of Fame???? Man, I'm a fan of his, but I don't see it. Why isn't Cooper in?
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