Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas
3
6%
Hakeem Olajuwon
40
93%
 
Total votes : 43

Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:50 pm

John3:16 wrote:^^^ Dantley wasn't on those championship teams. They traded him for Mark Aguirre in the middle of the season of first title. I didn't know Dumars was in the Hall of Fame. I'm really surprised he is. Great defender, but Hall of Fame???? Man, I'm a fan of his, but I don't see it. Why isn't Cooper in?


Yeah, I wasn't too sure about the Dantley thing, that's why I said he came on board at the tail end of his career. But Dumars is definitely what I would call a borderline Hall of Famer. He's the type of guy that if he wasn't voted in, I would have no problems with it. But him winning 2 rings and winning a Finals MVP played a huge part in getting inducted. But as an individual talent, he wasn't HOF material IMO.

And I would say Dumars is in and Coop isn't because Dumars also had an offensive game and could score while Coop couldn't.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:54 pm

^^ Isiah, Magic and Mark Aguirre were all best friends back in the day. LA tried to trade for Aguirre many times, the most famous being Worthy for Aguirre and Roy Tarpley (a beast who had a drug problem). Dr Buss nixed that trade at the last minute.

But you're right, Aguirre was no slouch. Was an All Star a few years in Dallas.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:59 pm

John3:16 wrote:^^ Isiah, Magic and Mark Aguirre were all best friends back in the day. LA tried to trade for Aguirre many times, the most famous being Worthy for Aguirre and Roy Tarpley (a beast who had a drug problem). Dr Buss nixed that trade at the last minute.

But you're right, Aguirre was no slouch. Was an All Star a few years in Dallas.


Anyone who plays 923 games in the NBA and averages 20.0 ppg is no slouch. I used to collect basketball cards starting in the late 80's and Aguire would be on all of the All-Star cards to go along with Dantley. Dantley was an absolutely beast in his prime. His 7 year run where he averaged pretty much 30 ppg is matched by only a few in history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lad01.html
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:02 pm

^^^^ if Iverson is the greatest little man in history, Dantley is the greatest little big man. What he did in the paint, at his size, is amazing.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:41 pm

^^ john Drew and Dantley were the best back to the basket small forwards I've ever seen. Drew was banned from the the league for coke or he'd have put up even more impressive numbers than he did.

Aguirre was no slouch for sure...... Put him next to Magic and Kareem and he'd have put better numbers than Worthy..... I really wanted Wilkins over Worthy and then was pissed when we didn't get Aguirre.....
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:21 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
John3:16 wrote:How many actually saw both? I did. Both were amazing. Definitely not a lopsided question as the poll results suggest.

Let's be honest. Hakeem only won his rings because Jordan was striking out in some small town. Zeke won his rings in the toughest era ever.

Tough to pick between a PG and a center. Can't go wrong with either.


The thing with Olajuwon I'm starting to notice, is that the opinions of him gradually become more and more extreme. Whenever he loses, it's not his fault, he was playing with scrubs, yet when he wins, he gets all the glory, and gets accredited to playing with scrubs. He could score on triple teams, soar the length of the court, and block shots without breaking a sweat, and could shake his way out of a straight jacket. Compare him with LeBron and he'll win that poll with ease. Start a thread comparing him to Duncan and they'll say he was five times better at literally every skill in existence. Start a thread comparing him to Jordan and they'll take Olajuwon. Compare him to anyone else, still Olajuwon. Pit him 1-on-5 against an all-time team, still Olajuwon. Pit him in the Olympics by himself, still Olajuwon. First pick in an All-Time draft, Akeem Olajuwon. Any blemishes on his career - believe it or not, he has them - are conveniently wiped away from existence and attributed to some other BS. He has become so comically overrated by tons of folks who want to act like they're the smartest person in the room that it's downright sickening.


And you seem to be on the other end of the spectrum where you can't give him enough credit. He is the only man to win titles during Jordan's championship reign. We can talk about different scenarios of what would've happened had Barkley, Robinson, Ewing or Shaq, etc or any other great player from that era had won during that two year window when MJ was out instead of Olajuwon. But they didn't and Olajuwon did. He saw and he conquered them all. He played in maybe the toughest era for centers and he schooled other all time great centers. That type of stuff counts for a lot. Who can ever forget his undressing of the regular season MVP Robinson in that one playoff series? That's legendary stuff. The type of stuff that will be talked about 50 years from now. The guy was already a great C before he won rings but after his back to back runs, he cemented himself amongst the all time greats. That's how greats are measured in basketball.

As for his game, I don't think there was anymore more complete. He was the best two way player ever along with Kareem. I mean you know you got some serious footwork when other all time greats want lessons from you. And this guy is a center teach guards/forwards about footwork!!! It's supposed to be the other way around. If you had to draw up the perfect C in terms of physical attributes, Olajuwon would be it. His lower body footwork and agility was simply off the charts. He took guys off the dribble on a regular basis!!! Centers aren't supposed to do that.

I think Olajuwon is one of the top 12-15 players of all time. Do you disagree with this ranking?


I'm of the end of the specturm, where I realize Akeem had the best collection of veteran talent in the 90's, next to Michael. I give him his props for holdin' it down on both ends; he had a lotta responsibility. However his cast doesn't get enough credit, as he had Horry, a man that routinely stepped it up in the clutch, gave great floor spacing, great defense; a truly reliable role player in every sense of the word, and was ultimately almost as important for Los Angeles' title in '02 then the famed 1-2 punch of Shaquille and Kobe. If i'm not mistaken he even was the bridesmaid to the Finals MVP in '95. Then there was Mario Elie, Mad Max, Otis Thorpe, Sam I Am, Kenny Smith, man he had a TEAM! In '95, he had almost 5 guys average double figures, and they were arguably the league's best defense in '94.

Of all the teams he beat those two years, I'd confidently say he had the better team. Why does he get credit for beating teams he's supposed to beat? His team was dealing with injuries in '95, and they acquired Drexler after the AS break, so I could care less about what he did in those playoffs on the road. We wouldn't be giving Jordan that kind of praise for beating teams he's supposed to, even if on the road , so it doesn't make sense to gvie Olajuwon praise about it, unless we're admitting maybe he wasn't as good as we thought, if there was to be doubt, not having too high expectations of him.

And people give too much credence to that one series aganist the Admiral, I doubt a lotta people even watched the series. I'm not saying Robinson wasn't floored, however many just gloss over the fact that Robinson was guarding Olajuwon on an island, while having to deal with double and triple teams on the other end. Didn't of course help that Rodman was playing lazy center field on Horry that series, and refused to guard Olajwuon, and refused to help even double. :disagree: Take at look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=ewingpa01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=abdulka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=malonka01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=mchalke01

These are his H2H's against six different big men, from 3 different eras. As you can see, he's not "conquering" anyone, nor was he considered head and shoulders against these guys, much less better. While the numbers are very close, he has a LOSING record against every single one of them. While part of this is team, with the numbers being so close, this has to be taken into consideration. The only player he has a clear advantage on is Ewing, but big Pat battled him even in the W/L department. That's a whole lotta "domination", not to mention all the third teams he has, lol I doubt he woulda made the 1st team in '96 either if David hadn't got injured.

And Wilt unquestionably in my mind is the most complete big ever, with Alcindor unquestionably being ahead, and I'd argue Garnett as well. You know, top 15 seems to be pretty high for Olajuwon, as there's been a lotta great players. I 'd say top 20-25

EDIT: Oh, and the 70's was the best decade for 5's by FAR, not even close


The Rockets in one of the championship years were the 5th or 6th seed IIRC. And I think you overrate the talent on those Rocket teams. Sure, they did have very good veterans and you need help to win it all but it was Hakeem carrying the load. He is one of the few players in history to win a ring without another legit star. I don't count Drexler in their 2nd one cause Drexler was clearly past his prime. That is a huge burden to carry and he did it.

The bottom line is the guy has two rings and took down other great centers of his era to do it. Beating the Knicks (Ewing) and Magic (Shaq) in the Finals. The guy averaged 29 and 33 ppg respectively during those two years in the playoffs. The guy elevated his game to another level and only because he played at such a high level were his teams able to squeeze by other great teams. His Rockets weren't supposed to beat the Spurs when Robinson won the regular season MVP and his Spurs had the best record in the league. And I think the Rockets were down 3-1 in a series or two and had to come back. That just shows the grit and character of the team. These guys had to fight. There was nothing superior about their talent base. There were a lot of very good teams during that time.

And I don't know what your definition of most complete is but Wilt should not be in any conversation of most complete C ever. He was a Shaq like presence on the inside and had very little game outside of a few feet. He couldn't sniff Hakeem's jock straps when it comes to doing it all. Hakeem could face you up from 15 feet and drive by you. He had a great turn around. A good face up jumper. And his pivot work was legendary. The guy was the most complete C ever.


I repeat, the only reason Houston was a sixth seed in '95 was due to injuries; they in all honesty had the best team in those playoffs, and the only time they were down 3-1 was aganist Phoenix, and if you remember, they were Barkley free throws, and a Danny Ainge meltdown defensively away from being eliminated. Houston doesn't get credit for beating the teams they were supposed to beat, unless again, expectations for Akeem weren't really that high, which would reinforce my point that he wasn't as good as people think he was, when he was playing. Outside of rebounding in that game 7, Barkley was a toal nonfactor. And if you're going to not count Drexler as being hin his prime, then it's only fair to count Big Pat as being past his prime, as injuries clearly derailed his career. And I repeat again, had Rodman not mailed it in that series, I believe San Antonio gets past Houston

And Chamberlain was a better passer, probably a better defender, and a more efficient scorer. Akeem really wasn't all that efficient, when comparing their %;s to their respective league averages. Chamberlain was single-handedly taking rosters as bad as Olajuwon had, and coming within a mere field goal of taking out the greatest dynasty, and probably the greatest player of all time, and his stacked team out of contention. It's already been noted that during one scrimmage, Wilt's Philadelphia team got beat by undrafted rookies. And Chamberliain played aganist tougher competition, aganist HOF 5's MUCH, MUCH more often. If Akeem were really more complete than that, then he would've been emulating what Chamberlain had did for his entire career, and not spent more than half his career not making it past the first round.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:27 am

I love Wilt but the guy played in a weak era. How you can compare his era to Hakeem's is beyond me. Hakeem played in the toughest era period (1980's) and arguably the toughest era for centers (late 80's to mid 90's). The talent pool in Wilt's era was a joke. How many teams were there in the NBA? 8 and then they later expanded to 14 or something? No one gave a crap bout basketball in those days and the talent pool reflected this. It's wasn't mainstream like the 80's.

And I also disagree about your assessment of the Celtics. They simply had a stranglehold on a completely weak talent pool. IMO, Bill Russell is the most overrated all time great ever. He just happened to come along at the right time under the right circumstances. The guy is nothing but a glorified Rodman. Great defender and rebounder who couldn't play a lick of offense.

I mean George Mikan is a "great" but let's face it, if he were to play today, he probably doesn't even make an NBA roster.

Well just agree to disagree.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:58 am

So….. fewer teams means is proof that the talent pool is shallow? Seems to me you and I have had a discussion where you argued the complete opposite…. that too many teams means the talent pool is too shallow….

…. so ….which is it.

Also… are you really trying to say that Hakeem is better than Wilt? Since you put so much value in stats and awards go look at the HOF centers Wilt Played against the the ones Hakeem played against.

By your same logic a dominant center today (Howard for example) is better than Hakeem based on the progression of the game just as Hakeem is better than Wilt.

I'll leave you with this…. A 37 year old Kareem averaged over 40 points a game against the Rockets in one season (5 games) when they had both Hakeem and Sampson.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:16 am

Rooscooter wrote:So….. fewer teams means is proof that the talent pool is shallow? Seems to me you and I have had a discussion where you argued the complete opposite…. that too many teams means the talent pool is too shallow….

…. so ….which is it.

Also… are you really trying to say that Hakeem is better than Wilt? Since you put so much value in stats and awards go look at the HOF centers Wilt Played against the the ones Hakeem played against.

By your same logic a dominant center today (Howard for example) is better than Hakeem based on the progression of the game just as Hakeem is better than Wilt.

I'll leave you with this…. A 37 year old Kareem averaged over 40 points a game against the Rockets in one season (5 games) when they had both Hakeem and Sampson.


There were 8 teams in the league for a reason. And that's because the game was not popular and didn't attract much attention. So that naturally eliminated a lot of the talent pool. Young kids don't play sports which aren't popular. The NBA really took off in the mid to late 80's with Magic/Bird and Michael with "Be Like Mike" commercials. That's when the talent pool for the NBA grew exponentially when compared to Wilt's/Russell's era.

And show me where I said Hakeem was better than Wilt? I simply said he was more complete. And I think he is the most complete C ever right there with Jabbar.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:06 pm

So…. 8 teams and the sport being unpopular means that the level of talent on those 8 teams was lower?… That's not logical on any level. Having only 8 teams (which isn't true either with the ABA) would mean that only the very best 96 Basketball players in the world were playing in the NBA. The only other avenue for them was the Globetrotters.

Today we have 150 European teams, numerous minor leagues and 32 NBA teams….. I'd say the talent pool is much shallower now than then.

Hakeem was one of the most fundamentally complete bigs to ever play but to say he was more so than Wilt is a stretch I won't take. Wilt defined the versatile post position. Everyone else followed.

Hakeem had a fantastic middle 10 years to his career….. When he entered the league he was a very raw talent. He developed in the NBA. He was not fundamentally complete and didn't have a great feel for the game. The way he worked to become the player he was for a 6 or 7 year stretch is the real story with him.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:02 pm

Rooscooter wrote:So…. 8 teams and the sport being unpopular means that the level of talent on those 8 teams was lower?… That's not logical on any level. Having only 8 teams (which isn't true either with the ABA) would mean that only the very best 96 Basketball players in the world were playing in the NBA. The only other avenue for them was the Globetrotters.

Today we have 150 European teams, numerous minor leagues and 32 NBA teams….. I'd say the talent pool is much shallower now than then.

Hakeem was one of the most fundamentally complete bigs to ever play but to say he was more so than Wilt is a stretch I won't take. Wilt defined the versatile post position. Everyone else followed.

Hakeem had a fantastic middle 10 years to his career….. When he entered the league he was a very raw talent. He developed in the NBA. He was not fundamentally complete and didn't have a great feel for the game. The way he worked to become the player he was for a 6 or 7 year stretch is the real story with him.


I'm talking about the talent pool. When a particular sport isn't popular, most of the general public does not participate in it. Therefore, the amount of talent you can actually draw into this sport is not representative of the population. For instance, if I were to ask you which sport has the greater talent pool today, football or boxing, you would know the answer is obvious. Why? Because everyone plays football and knows the sport while boxing is segregated to mostly low income, ghetto areas. Most boxers come from ghettos. That's why boxing is a joke these days. There are so many talented athletes in basketball, football, track, etc that would excel in boxing but they CHOSE to play other sports and not boxing. That's the same situation with basketball in the Wilt days. No one gave a crap about basketball so no one played it. And that means the talent pool is very weak. Sure, the fact that were there only 8 teams helps strengthen the talent in the NBA but it doesn't change the fact that the talent pool wasn't nearly as good as when Hakeem played.

And I had this conversation with you before regarding Hakeem. The guy was a beast from the get go. There was no weaning in period for the Dream. The guy was a dominant force from his rookie season on. Now, he didn't fully maximize his potential until the early 90's but he was a force from the get go, no matter how raw he might've been.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:11 pm

Hakeem's 1993-94 season is one of the best seasons ever when you consider what he accomplished. Winning regular season MVP, defensive player of the year and finals MVP. I'm pretty sure no one has ever accomplished that.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:28 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:So…. 8 teams and the sport being unpopular means that the level of talent on those 8 teams was lower?… That's not logical on any level. Having only 8 teams (which isn't true either with the ABA) would mean that only the very best 96 Basketball players in the world were playing in the NBA. The only other avenue for them was the Globetrotters.

Today we have 150 European teams, numerous minor leagues and 32 NBA teams….. I'd say the talent pool is much shallower now than then.

Hakeem was one of the most fundamentally complete bigs to ever play but to say he was more so than Wilt is a stretch I won't take. Wilt defined the versatile post position. Everyone else followed.

Hakeem had a fantastic middle 10 years to his career….. When he entered the league he was a very raw talent. He developed in the NBA. He was not fundamentally complete and didn't have a great feel for the game. The way he worked to become the player he was for a 6 or 7 year stretch is the real story with him.


I'm talking about the talent pool. When a particular sport isn't popular, most of the general public does not participate in it. Therefore, the amount of talent you can actually draw into this sport is not representative of the population. For instance, if I were to ask you which sport has the greater talent pool today, football or boxing, you would know the answer is obvious. Why? Because everyone plays football and knows the sport while boxing is segregated to mostly low income, ghetto areas. Most boxers come from ghettos. That's why boxing is a joke these days. There are so many talented athletes in basketball, football, track, etc that would excel in boxing but they CHOSE to play other sports and not boxing. That's the same situation with basketball in the Wilt days. No one gave a crap about basketball so no one played it. And that means the talent pool is very weak. Sure, the fact that were there only 8 teams helps strengthen the talent in the NBA but it doesn't change the fact that the talent pool wasn't nearly as good as when Hakeem played.

And I had this conversation with you before regarding Hakeem. The guy was a beast from the get go. There was no weaning in period for the Dream. The guy was a dominant force from his rookie season on. Now, he didn't fully maximize his potential until the early 90's but he was a force from the get go, no matter how raw he might've been.


This might work with someone who wasn't 8 years old at the time….. I know what was popular and what wasn't in those days……. :man12:

You make it sound like curling.....

The game is more popular now…. no doubt. The difference is that I played the game when I was 8….. today most kids play fantasy or on an X-Box….. I contributed to the "talent pool"…. not EA Sports…. :man10:

If we follow our logic to it's end Hakeem can't be considered a great center either..... it's been 25 years since he was in his prime and the game has progressed so players back then obviously couldn't play today. He'd be a JV'er in High School and that's about it....

You should just stop now…..
Last edited by Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Congo Cash on Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:07 pm

The NBA has 30 teams but only 3-5 teams (maybe even less) are legit, the rest are fillers for them to feed... 8 teams meant that Wilt had to face the Celtics multiple times a year, and calling Bill Russell overrated (as much as I hate giving those green turds any credit) is a crime....
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:13 pm

Congo Cash wrote:The NBA has 30 teams but only 3-5 teams (maybe even less) are legit, the rest are fillers for them to feed... 8 teams meant that Wilt had to face the Celtics multiple times a year, and calling Bill Russell overrated (as much as I hate giving those green turds any credit) is a crime....


Thank you!! Yes, even though there were less teams, ultimately the talent pool was contracted; more HOF's on less teams, and like you said, facing these teams all day, every day. Every team back then was legit competition, much more parity as far as competitive teams, it's just that gets overshadowed by Wilt and Russell, more or less.

And no, Hakeem wasn't "dominant" from the get-go. 9 first round playoff exits, 1 missed playoffs in his prime, which include 4 sweeps, 6 blowouts, all of this in a rather weak Western Conference at the time. He couldn't make an All-NBA first team during the ages of 27, 28, 29, can't win an MVP or ring before age 30, Brad Daugherty made the All-NBA Third team over him one year. He even was involved in a trade discussion at one point, possibly having him traded to Beantown for Reggie Lewis. If you're gonna bring up his teammates, then thank you very much for making my point that he wasn't much of a factor during those times.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:59 pm

^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:24 pm

^^^^ Nate Thurmond, right?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:40 pm

John3:16 wrote:^^^^ Nate Thurmond, right?


Ding!.....

Probably the toughest Center to ever play.... He used to man handle Kareem who had a much higher center of gravity. He also could dislodge Wilt pretty easily as well.... An underrated offensive player and a "lost all time great" IMHO.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:45 pm

^^^ I met him after a Warriors game once. I was in high school. Think he had a front office job with them. He talked to me for about 5 min. Super nice guy.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:47 pm

A near 40-year old Alcindor was routinely torching Akeem. In Ten straight games, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 33 ppg on .630 shooting, and three games of 40+ points, which includes a FORTY-SIX POINT explosion in only 37 minutes, yikes :man4:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:08 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....


What is it with you? You always resort to personal attacks at some point. That's why i'm always hesitant to engage with you.

But anyways, Jordan has said several times that Mitch Richmond was his toughest competition. It's a credit to Mitch but not much more than that. Every player has certain players that give them trouble. Besides, Kareem never faced peak Hakeem. Hakeem was a dominant force when he came on board as a rookie but wasn't fully polished until the early 90's. And Hakeem took care of the best of his era when it mattered most in legendary fashion.

I started watching basketball closely around 1987. So anything prior to that is based on what i've read, videos, accepted.knowledge, etc. And maybe i'm hard on Wilt and Russell for this reason.

Peace grumpy guy.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:32 pm

Congo Cash wrote:The NBA has 30 teams but only 3-5 teams (maybe even less) are legit, the rest are fillers for them to feed... 8 teams meant that Wilt had to face the Celtics multiple times a year, and calling Bill Russell overrated (as much as I hate giving those green turds any credit) is a crime....


It's hard for me to give full credit to anyone who dominated in such a weak era. Especially given the fact that his Celts had a monopoly on talent. I know he had great intangibles, was a great leader and won but his 11 rings don't carry the same weight as if he had won them in the modern era when basketball was mainstream and the talent pool was extremely high. But he didn't. And his game was all about defense and rebounding, ala Rodman. Was he better than Rodman in terms of on court impact as a defender and rebounder? Can anyone say for sure? Rodman is considered by some to be the greatest rebounder ever when you consider eras. And he could guard 1-5 from Jordan, Malone to Shaq. Russell had no offensive game to speak of, just like Rodman.

It's easier for me to look at a guy like Wilt and feel more confident that he would've been great in any era because he dominated so thoroughly on both ends. Russell is definitely an atg and in my top 10 ever (i have to put him there to be objective) but no way do his rings have the same weight as the rings won in the modern era. Mj's 6 rings > than Russells 11 rings. I put a lot of emphasis on level of comp. I just think he does get overrated because people see 11 rings and give the same weight as if he did it in today's nba. No way does any team in today's era win 11 rings. Not with the level of comp.
Last edited by Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:35 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....


What is it with you? You always resort to personal attacks at some point. That's why i'm always hesitant to engage with you.

But anyways, Jordan has said several times that Mitch Richmond was his toughest competition. It's a credit to Mitch but not much more than that. Every player has certain players that give them trouble. Besides, Kareem never faced peak Hakeem. Hakeem was a dominant force when he came on board as a rookie but wasn't fully polished until the early 90's. And Hakeem took care of the best of his era when it mattered most in legendary fashion.

I started watching basketball closely around 1987. So anything prior to that is based on what i've read, videos, accepted.knowledge, etc. And maybe i'm hard on Wilt and Russell for this reason.

Peace grumpy guy.



When he was fully "polished" in the early 90's, he was getting waxed by that guy in your avatar, and missing the playoffs completely...

What is it with these Akeem disccssions, that people have to only focus on those two years? Kareem hands him his ***, "he was too young", Shaquille hands him his ***, "he was too old". If Akeem was really so dominant and this great player, and carried rather weak rosters to championships, then why wasn't he doing this his entire career?? This n all honesty is why Akeem's a top-25 player all-time, as I don't even think he's better (although it's very close) than Zeke, and most don't consider him higher than top-25 (which is right where he belongs). This is not to not mean he wasn't a legendary player, and perhaps wasn't blessed with certain things other were, but no other players get these passes, and Akeem's no exception, tough luck. Impact is subjective, results are real
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:43 pm

PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....


What is it with you? You always resort to personal attacks at some point. That's why i'm always hesitant to engage with you.

But anyways, Jordan has said several times that Mitch Richmond was his toughest competition. It's a credit to Mitch but not much more than that. Every player has certain players that give them trouble. Besides, Kareem never faced peak Hakeem. Hakeem was a dominant force when he came on board as a rookie but wasn't fully polished until the early 90's. And Hakeem took care of the best of his era when it mattered most in legendary fashion.

I started watching basketball closely around 1987. So anything prior to that is based on what i've read, videos, accepted.knowledge, etc. And maybe i'm hard on Wilt and Russell for this reason.

Peace grumpy guy.



When he was fully "polished" in the early 90's, he was getting waxed by that guy in your avatar, and missing the playoffs completely...

What is it with these Akeem disccssions, that people have to only focus on those two years? Kareem hands him his ***, "he was too young", Shaquille hands him his ***, "he was too old". If Akeem was really so dominant and this great player, and carried rather weak rosters to championships, then why wasn't he doing this his entire career?? This n all honesty is why Akeem's a top-25 player all-time, as I don't even think he's better (although it's very close) than Zeke, and most don't consider him higher than top-25 (which is right where he belongs). This is not to not mean he wasn't a legendary player, and perhaps wasn't blessed with certain things other were, but no other players get these passes, and Akeem's no exception, tough luck. Impact is subjective, results are real


The guy won two rings. He came on board as a rookie in possibly the toughest era in basketball history. Did u expect him to conquer Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics as a young player? I mean i really don't know what you want from the guy. When you look at his accomplishments both personal and team to go along with his skill level and talent, he should be in most people's top 15 atg list. If you are beng objective you have too.

Just like i say that Kareem is the only guy who can make an absolutely legit claim at being the best ever right there with MJ when you look at his body of work. For me, there is MJ and Kareem and then everyone else. Because if you are being objective, they should be top 1-2.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:59 pm

As a defender, i would take Hakeem over any center in history. And his offensive game was unparalleled in terms of completeness. Kareem was a more dominant offensive force because of his skyhook, which is easily the single most devastating offensive weapon in history. But even Kareem didn't have Hakeem's complete arsenal. There was not one thing he couldn't do on the offensive end. Face you up and take you off the dribble like a guard, play with his back to the basket and hit the fadeaway shot, hit the 15-17 footer and we all know about his legendary footwork in the post. He had amazing touch but could also bang when necessary.
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