Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Isaiah Thomas
3
6%
Hakeem Olajuwon
40
93%
 
Total votes : 43

Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:13 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....


What is it with you? You always resort to personal attacks at some point. That's why i'm always hesitant to engage with you.

But anyways, Jordan has said several times that Mitch Richmond was his toughest competition. It's a credit to Mitch but not much more than that. Every player has certain players that give them trouble. Besides, Kareem never faced peak Hakeem. Hakeem was a dominant force when he came on board as a rookie but wasn't fully polished until the early 90's. And Hakeem took care of the best of his era when it mattered most in legendary fashion.

I started watching basketball closely around 1987. So anything prior to that is based on what i've read, videos, accepted.knowledge, etc. And maybe i'm hard on Wilt and Russell for this reason.

Peace grumpy guy.



When he was fully "polished" in the early 90's, he was getting waxed by that guy in your avatar, and missing the playoffs completely...

What is it with these Akeem disccssions, that people have to only focus on those two years? Kareem hands him his ***, "he was too young", Shaquille hands him his ***, "he was too old". If Akeem was really so dominant and this great player, and carried rather weak rosters to championships, then why wasn't he doing this his entire career?? This n all honesty is why Akeem's a top-25 player all-time, as I don't even think he's better (although it's very close) than Zeke, and most don't consider him higher than top-25 (which is right where he belongs). This is not to not mean he wasn't a legendary player, and perhaps wasn't blessed with certain things other were, but no other players get these passes, and Akeem's no exception, tough luck. Impact is subjective, results are real


The guy won two rings. He came on board as a rookie in possibly the toughest era in basketball history. Did u expect him to conquer Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics as a young player? I mean i really don't know what you want from the guy. When you look at his accomplishments both personal and team to go along with his skill level and talent, he should be in most people's top 15 atg list. If you are beng objective you have too.

Just like i say that Kareem is the only guy who can make an absolutely legit claim at being the best ever right there with MJ when you look at his body of work. For me, there is MJ and Kareem and then everyone else. Because if you are being objective, they should be top 1-2.


How is he top-15, when he's absolute worse case scenario just as good as Thomas, when he isn't objectivbely ranked inside the top 20.

The fact that (I maybe assuming, excuse me if I'm wrong) you call yourself a Lakers fan, and rank AKeem over Elgin Baylor and George Mikan is SHOCKING! I'm curious, whre do you rank these two players, as well as the likes of Cousy, Havlicek, Pettit, Garnett?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:03 am

^^^^^^

It's hard for me to rank Mikan in my top 20 given the era he played in. I mean I honestly think he was nothing more than Kurt Rambis in terms of natural talent. The guy simply played in a weak era. I don't think the guy even makes an NBA team today. If he does, he probably just sits on the bench.

As for Baylor, I have him in my top 20 somewhere. He was a legend but him not winning a ring hurts his overall legacy.

Garnett? I would say he would in my top 30-35ish.

As for Cousy, Havlichek and Pettit, it's really hard for me to rank them accordingly because they were way before my time. And they weren't the obvious legends like Wilt, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, etc. where even as a kid, I knew about them and their games as they were constantly talked about if you followed the sport. But the more fringe legends like Cousy, Pettit and Havlichek, i just can't rank them accordingly because i never saw them play. I mean don't get me wrong, even as a kid growing up in the 80's, i knew about them. I just didn't have enough info on them as i did with the obvious big name legends to rank them accordingly. So out of ignorance, i can't rank them accordingly.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:57 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Just what he said about Wilt and Russell is enough to discredit further analysis..... clearly not in touch with anything other than BasketballReference.com and YouTube highlight reels.

Kareem was asked who the most difficult player he'd every played against and it was an immediate response...... and it wasn't Hakeem either. It was another of those shallow pool HOF'ers from the age where no one cared.....

Finally the argument that the game didn't get popular until the 80's on a mass scale is something I can get behind.... HOWEVER.... the kids in the mid 80's that began to love the game didn't come of age to play the game at the pro level until the mid 90's at least..... so the argument that the talent pool he uses is bogus. The players in the 80's were watching the game when I was.... in the late 60's and early 70's.....


What is it with you? You always resort to personal attacks at some point. That's why i'm always hesitant to engage with you.

But anyways, Jordan has said several times that Mitch Richmond was his toughest competition. It's a credit to Mitch but not much more than that. Every player has certain players that give them trouble. Besides, Kareem never faced peak Hakeem. Hakeem was a dominant force when he came on board as a rookie but wasn't fully polished until the early 90's. And Hakeem took care of the best of his era when it mattered most in legendary fashion.

I started watching basketball closely around 1987. So anything prior to that is based on what i've read, videos, accepted.knowledge, etc. And maybe i'm hard on Wilt and Russell for this reason.

Peace grumpy guy.


Listen….. I've got nothing against you personally but when someone makes the definitive statements you made in this thread there is little other reaction left but definitive statements in response. You seem to take these "best ever" lines of thought over the top and to support them you feel the need to tear down other players….. ones that you may never have seen play. For someone who did see these guys play on a nightly basis I can tell you that YouTube highlight reels just may not tell the whole story.

You also need to be able to distinguish when someone is attacking your argument and not you personally. I don't know you personally so it would be almost impossible for me to attack you in that manner.

You have made some very strong assertions both about Hakeem, his "era" and past players to support the point that he is the most fundamental well rounded center along with Kareem to ever play. I don't' see it that way at all. I saw Hakeem play in person and I know for a fact that he didn't come in and dominate the league. His stats were good but that doesn't make a dominant player as you have described him. Hakeem's greatest gift and the one I remember him for more than anything else was his ability to get better each year. He worked very hard. He was not good defensively early in is career…. in fact he was horrible. He was also not fluid offensively until about 6 or 7 years into his career. He was an athletic freak that lived on that one advantage. He was able to develop the rest of his game around that. Picture a guy like Howard who worked hard to get better every year…..

Hakeem is an all time great but to support that by tearing down Russell and Wilt is a little childish IMHO and that's what my posts were about…. lets debate….. but it's hard when someone starts off by telling everyone "Don't even"……

The argument that the game got better and players got much better when the rise of popularity happened in the mid 80's is specifically why your are here making these assertions. You note that you started watching in the late 80's. When were you 24 years old? That's a relevant question because you made the assertion that the game got much better when the popularity spawned more interest in the youth and then said youth became basketball players at a younger age and thus better when they got to the NBA. If you follow the bouncing ball from 1985 and a 10 year old kid…. he would be about ready to join the NBA in 1998 or so…..

I also find it interesting that you choose a player that didn't grow up in the US or take part in our development systems. Hakeem's entire learning process of the game was in college and the pro's. So, again, here's proof that players can be great without growing up wanting to play the game. He grew up in Africa wanting to be a Soccer Goalie……

Finally, you and I discussed the nature of the league in the "old days" and today. You specifically held a complete opposite view to support your point then as you do now to support your point. Don't confuse my calling that to your attention as a "personal attack"…… If you would like I'll post your comments from that thread…. it will accomplish little in this debate other than to demonstrate my point.

If you "hesitate" to engage me there are ways where you don't have to see my posts…. you won't hurt my feelings if you use them.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:16 am

^^^^
Hakeem was a force the moment he stepped onto the NBA court. I really don't know what you're talking about. Obviously, he was raw when he first started and wasn't fully polished until the early 90's but he was a force from the get go. He made the All-Star team 12 out of his first 13 years and started making All-Defensive teams from his second year and on and was a mainstay as the 1st or 2nd All-Defensive team for the next decade. The guy won two defensive player of the years awards. To me, he is the best defensive center ever.

And when I say he is the most complete center ever, I am saying so based on my breakdown of each facet of his game. Not based on team accomplishment or scoring titles, etc. Show me another center that was more complete and I would GLADLY argue with you in a constructive manner.

And your point about Hakeem being a foreign player further backs up my point in that only because the game started to become so popular did the league start to look for talent around the world. You didn't have that in the Wilt/Russell days. Are you understanding what I mean when I say "talent pool"?

Look, if you're going to say Hakeem was still not a dominant force from the get go, i'll just stop.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:33 am

Hakeem actually made All-Defensive 2nd team in his rookie year. And he made the All-NBA 2nd team in his 2nd year and was All-NBA 1st team for the next 3 years. So in his first 5 years, the guy made All-NBA 1st team 3 times and All-NBA 2nd team once and was an All-Star every year. He was also either 1st or 2nd All-Defensive team every year. And he averaged at least 20 ppg and 11 rpg every year.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:19 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^
Hakeem was a force the moment he stepped onto the NBA court. I really don't know what you're talking about. Obviously, he was raw when he first started and wasn't fully polished until the early 90's but he was a force from the get go. He made the All-Star team 12 out of his first 13 years and started making All-Defensive teams from his second year and on and was a mainstay as the 1st or 2nd All-Defensive team for the next decade. The guy won two defensive player of the years awards. To me, he is the best defensive center ever.

And when I say he is the most complete center ever, I am saying so based on my breakdown of each facet of his game. Not based on team accomplishment or scoring titles, etc. Show me another center that was more complete and I would GLADLY argue with you in a constructive manner.

And your point about Hakeem being a foreign player further backs up my point in that only because the game started to become so popular did the league start to look for talent around the world. You didn't have that in the Wilt/Russell days. Are you understanding what I mean when I say "talent pool"?

Look, if you're going to say Hakeem was still not a dominant force from the get go, i'll just stop.


That's not why your stopping...... :man10:

You, for the second time ignored my entire post to only return to doing exactly what you accused me of. I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING to continue to have the privilege of continuing this stimulating yet fact less discussion.... :man10:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:57 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^^^

It's hard for me to rank Mikan in my top 20 given the era he played in. I mean I honestly think he was nothing more than Kurt Rambis in terms of natural talent. The guy simply played in a weak era. I don't think the guy even makes an NBA team today. If he does, he probably just sits on the bench.

As for Baylor, I have him in my top 20 somewhere. He was a legend but him not winning a ring hurts his overall legacy.

Garnett? I would say he would in my top 30-35ish.

As for Cousy, Havlichek and Pettit, it's really hard for me to rank them accordingly because they were way before my time. And they weren't the obvious legends like Wilt, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, etc. where even as a kid, I knew about them and their games as they were constantly talked about if you followed the sport. But the more fringe legends like Cousy, Pettit and Havlichek, i just can't rank them accordingly because i never saw them play. I mean don't get me wrong, even as a kid growing up in the 80's, i knew about them. I just didn't have enough info on them as i did with the obvious big name legends to rank them accordingly. So out of ignorance, i can't rank them accordingly.


How can you discredit Mikan for when he played, and not discredit Akeem for winning his titles during the weakest stretch of talent since the merger, in a face-paced era himself, with improved offensive schemes and floor spacing, with the game's best player suspended, and a shortened three point line for one of them even. You don't discredit Olajuwon for this, so it doesn't make sense to discredit Mikan for this. He played when he played, aganist whomever was out there. He was a more dominant force, and accomplished more during his time, and is the O.G. Laker, so he absolutely deserves to be ranked ahead of Olajwuon.

And it's a bit hypocritical of you to discredit Baylor 'cause he doesn't have a ring, yet rank Olajuwon ahead of Mikan when he has more than him, and to even just rank Akeem ahead of Pettit, Cousy and Hondo just 'cause you haven't seen them play, when they also accomplished much more than Olajuwon, and enjoyed more consistent success and better careers. Baylor may not have a ring, but in his day he was a much more dominant force, and spent 3/4 of his career in the Finals, as opposed to Akeem spending more than half his career not making it past the first round, I fail to see the case for Olajuwon over Elgin. Your blissful disrespect and ignorance of past Laker greats just tells me you're not really a Laker fan, but perhaps just a bandwagon cheerer, or just some casual rooter, which in either case disqualifies you from talking basketball of this nature, and renders your admitted IGNORANT opinion invalid.

Your continued discrediting of players, and undermining of other players (such as Kevin Garnett being top 30-35, when by all statistical measures he's top 25) just shows your a biase homer, with a horse in this race, that can't be objective. A player that couldn't make it past the first round more than half his career isn't a top 15 player, let alone top 20, SORRY! Garnett gets criticisms, Iverson gets his criticisms, even Zeke, as good as he was, has his flaws, and gets criticzed and ranked accordingly. Yet Olajuwon's somehow special here. Excuse me if I sound like a Akeem hater, but this overrating of him has to stop. I followed his entire career from when he was under Malone's wing, to playing alongside Air Canada in Toronto, and yes, he was a uniquely skilled and legendary figure. But he has his flaws, and no, his skill doesn't equate to him being ranked higher than he should be. He only dominated really for those two years, and had a very incosistent prime. Just imagine 20 years from now, people trying to say Kevin Garnett's a top 12-15 player, and understand how asisnine it is when people are now saying the same about Olajuwon.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:20 pm

Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.

He had a more consistent prime, a better and more willing passer- could even facilitate as point forward. Much quicker decision-making with the rock; he saw the entire floor, and made the best post-entry passes, and outlets passes in the open court. KG's a more versatile defender, more all-defensive 1st teams, more points, rebounds, assists by the time he hangs it up (acquiring these in a slower-paced league), more All-Star Game MVP's*, more all-star teams, bounced in the first round less despite playing longer, better in the MVP voting, actually won his MVP in one of the biggest landslide ever, over the likes of Kobe, Duncan, Shaquille, Iverson, McGrady; Olajuwon won his with Jordan being suspended, and Pippen being injured Plus he won his title with much better competition, as James and Bryant together is tougher than anything Olajuwon saw in his title runs

Plus, from watching them both, he's a better defender. For all those steals and blocks "Dream" got, he gambled a ton in the lanes, handchecked the [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] outta ppl, and was out of position a lot, routinely letting the play break down at the rim. Garnett, although he didn't block many shots, was the more fundamental defender, as he played defense with his feet. The play's already broke down when you're meeting slashers at the rim. The Big Ticket defended the pick-and-roll much better, could actually guard out on the perimeter, and hedged screens plus recovered much better. Go watch some games of those Olajuwon-led Rockets, and you'll see that he couldn't defend the PnR w/o handchecking if his life depended on it.

Garnett, although not as skilled offensively as Olajuwon, or as clutch, he had his skill offensively as well. He could handle the rock a lil' bit, took his big man off the dribble, had the occasional finger roll, that hook shot he jumps with, more consistent range, and out to home run territory. And where's Hakeem's scoring title? The scoring gap between these two becomes lessened, taking pace into consideration. Not to mention Garnett shooting only about 1.5% points less in his career, with the bulk of his prime, again, coming in the deadball era.

Garnett at one point in time was putting up 24/14/5, was the clear-cut MVP and best player in the league with 2 top 10 players at/near their prime and another top 15 player at his peak, while being a DPOY candidate, led the largest turnaround in NBA history and anchored an elite championship while at the same time being his team's leading playoff scorer. KG averaged 25ppg 16 rebounds 5 assist 2 blcks and 2 assist as a defensive keg over 27 straight playoff games, whle also being his teams primary playmaker, and virtual point guard, across three years yet people talk about his lack of games above 30ppg

You wanna argue impact? Go look at their +/- numbers, and tell me Garnett didn't have the bigger impact on his teams? It's clear, at least to me, that Garnett's a little bit better, them being equal at worst. If Olajuwon's top 15, Garnett is as well
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Congo Cash on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:51 am

I never watched Mikan or Baylor, but wow such disrespect! :bang:

I do think KG is the better defender and easily has a more consistent career...
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:51 am

PeediSigel wrote:Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.



Well.... For those that actually saw Hakeem from the beginning know that he wasn't even the best Center on his team for the first 3 years of his career much less dominant from the get go...... :man10:

Blocked shots are not defense IMHO. There's no stat that is worse and more misunderstood than blocked shots. Merely touching an opponents shot records the stat. No change of possession occurs. Over 50% of blocked shots end with an offensive rebound or side out. They look cool and get people excited but it's not a good evaluator of defense. Add to that the 15 to 20 times a game the "shot blockers" leave their man or chase shooters to get those 2.8 blocks per game resulting in a defensive breakdown.

The truth about Hakeem is that he had a dominate 5 year run and was great for another 3 to 5 years. One of the best at that position ever?.... Yeah but not near the top of that list IMHO.

Garnett, in my opinion has been the best PF I've seen in overall effectiveness on a team. Malone was a better scorer and Duncan gets all the praise but Garnett's overall game is better than both.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:15 am

It's true that I can't give a completely accurate assessment of guys I have never seen play. As I've said before, what I can do for these players is go to by common knowledge and general accepted consensus. These players have been discussed ad nauseam for decades, so it's not too hard to get a grasp of where they should be ranked. Yeah, some players might be overrated and some underrated but I have to go by the general consensus. Most "experts", like myself, have never seen Wilt and Russell play, but they also give their list of the best ever. You have to make educated guesses. But at the same time, just because a person saw them play doesn't mean they are more qualified to evaluate them. For example, just because you are alive today doesn't mean you are good at evaluating talent.

Having said that, I do put a lot of emphasis on eras and level of comp. Winning a back to back in the modern era carries more weight for me than say, during Russell's era and even more so for Mikan's era. There's a reason why only the Lakers and Bulls have accomplished three peats in the modern era while Russell's Celtics won 11 rings in his 13 seasons in the league. There is just way too much competition. I don't think any team has even made more than 4 straight finals appearances in the modern era because the competition just catches up to you.

As for KG, he's definitely one of the best PF's ever and maybe the most complete PF ever. He could pretty much do it all. But if I am being objective when comparing him to Hakeem, I have to look at the hardware. Hakeem has 2 finals MVPs, KG has none. And Hakeem did carry two teams on his back to titles which is almost never done and that carries a lot of weight for me. KG had to team up with other superstars to get his ring. You can't discredit his ring it but it's still true. Like I said before, I give more weight to rings won in the modern era than the 60's and prior. But in the case of these two, both played in the modern era so it's easier to compare the two. Hakeem also has one more DPOY award, which is darn impressive when you consider the talented defenders who played in his era (Jordan, Robinson, Rodman, Mutombo, Mourning, etc).

But in terms of individual accomplishments, it's pretty close. But again, when you consider the competition Hakeem had to deal, it's impressive (Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mutombo, Mourning, etc). Because any great player can get All-NBA honors year after year if you have weak comp but quite another to do it against some of the best ever.

So yeah, I do rank Hakeem higher. To me, he's the most complete C ever. No one had his complete game. No one. And you can argue that KG was the most complete PF ever. But Hakeem trumps him in the hardware.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:21 am

Rooscooter wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.



[color=#FF0000]Well.... For those that actually saw Hakeem from the beginning know that he wasn't even the best Center on his team for the first 3 years of his career much less dominant from the get go......[/color] :man10:

Blocked shots are not defense IMHO. There's no stat that is worse and more misunderstood than blocked shots. Merely touching an opponents shot records the stat. No change of possession occurs. Over 50% of blocked shots end with an offensive rebound or side out. They look cool and get people excited but it's not a good evaluator of defense. Add to that the 15 to 20 times a game the "shot blockers" leave their man or chase shooters to get those 2.8 blocks per game resulting in a defensive breakdown.

The truth about Hakeem is that he had a dominate 5 year run and was great for another 3 to 5 years. One of the best at that position ever?.... Yeah but not near the top of that list IMHO.

Garnett, in my opinion has been the best PF I've seen in overall effectiveness on a team. Malone was a better scorer and Duncan gets all the praise but Garnett's overall game is better than both.


I agree. Hakeem sucked in his first few years in the league. He accomplished absolutely nothing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:29 am

Also let me add, when we are judging players, how you win rings is just as important as how many you have to some extent. For instance, Pippen has 6 rings just as MJ. But Pippen was always second fiddle to MJ and everyone knew this. Every opponent focused first on MJ. As "the man", the burden is always on you. Pippen could never lead a team to a ring as "the man" as he just didn't have THAT type of game. Sure, he was one of the most complete players ever but he didn't have the ability to consistently break down a defense and get his own shot. He always needed MJ to take pressure off of him and play second fiddle to be at his best.

And that's exactly why David Robinson and Hakeem are ranked so differently on the all time great list. Robinson got his as second fiddle behind Duncan while Hakeem was "the man" and carried his teams to back to back rings. And history judges both of them correctly. Had it been the other way around, history would rank Robinson much higher and rightfully so.

It's the same with Drexler. He won a ring but as second fiddle behind Hakeem and when he was past his best days. That's not the same as had he won one during his Blazer days as "the man". And history also judges his correctly.

And the same with Kobe. I am more impressed with Kobe's 2 rings as "the man" than his 3 rings as 1B.

It's all about winning rings but if you can do it as "the man", it's much more impressive.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:56 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.



[color=#FF0000]Well.... For those that actually saw Hakeem from the beginning know that he wasn't even the best Center on his team for the first 3 years of his career much less dominant from the get go......[/color] :man10:

Blocked shots are not defense IMHO. There's no stat that is worse and more misunderstood than blocked shots. Merely touching an opponents shot records the stat. No change of possession occurs. Over 50% of blocked shots end with an offensive rebound or side out. They look cool and get people excited but it's not a good evaluator of defense. Add to that the 15 to 20 times a game the "shot blockers" leave their man or chase shooters to get those 2.8 blocks per game resulting in a defensive breakdown.

The truth about Hakeem is that he had a dominate 5 year run and was great for another 3 to 5 years. One of the best at that position ever?.... Yeah but not near the top of that list IMHO.

Garnett, in my opinion has been the best PF I've seen in overall effectiveness on a team. Malone was a better scorer and Duncan gets all the praise but Garnett's overall game is better than both.


I agree. Hakeem sucked in his first few years in the league. He accomplished absolutely nothing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html


I thought you were finished. :man10:

Also my suspicions were correct.... But no YouTube links ? That is disappointing

You don't even have the conviction to end a debate and stack to it :man10:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.



[color=#FF0000]Well.... For those that actually saw Hakeem from the beginning know that he wasn't even the best Center on his team for the first 3 years of his career much less dominant from the get go......[/color] :man10:

Blocked shots are not defense IMHO. There's no stat that is worse and more misunderstood than blocked shots. Merely touching an opponents shot records the stat. No change of possession occurs. Over 50% of blocked shots end with an offensive rebound or side out. They look cool and get people excited but it's not a good evaluator of defense. Add to that the 15 to 20 times a game the "shot blockers" leave their man or chase shooters to get those 2.8 blocks per game resulting in a defensive breakdown.

The truth about Hakeem is that he had a dominate 5 year run and was great for another 3 to 5 years. One of the best at that position ever?.... Yeah but not near the top of that list IMHO.

Garnett, in my opinion has been the best PF I've seen in overall effectiveness on a team. Malone was a better scorer and Duncan gets all the praise but Garnett's overall game is better than both.


I agree. Hakeem sucked in his first few years in the league. He accomplished absolutely nothing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html


I thought you were finished. :man10:

Also my suspicions were correct.... But no YouTube links ? That is disappointing

You don't even have the conviction to end a debate and stack to it :man10:


You are the one making the outlandish claim that Olajuwon was some unproven joke who didn't do squat his first few years in the league. I have presented evidence which suggests otherwise. The burden is on you to bring some facts to the table instead of giving your opinion (which anyone can do).

Got that old grumpy guy? (I had to throw that in there since you degraded me with the Youtube comment as if to suggest that I don't actually know this game and haven't played it all my life). :jam2:
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:Anyways, for those that aren't biased clowns, that don't conveniently ignore anything that contradicts their stance..

I personally believe the argument could be made that Kevin Garnett's better than Olajuwon.



[color=#FF0000]Well.... For those that actually saw Hakeem from the beginning know that he wasn't even the best Center on his team for the first 3 years of his career much less dominant from the get go......[/color] :man10:

Blocked shots are not defense IMHO. There's no stat that is worse and more misunderstood than blocked shots. Merely touching an opponents shot records the stat. No change of possession occurs. Over 50% of blocked shots end with an offensive rebound or side out. They look cool and get people excited but it's not a good evaluator of defense. Add to that the 15 to 20 times a game the "shot blockers" leave their man or chase shooters to get those 2.8 blocks per game resulting in a defensive breakdown.

The truth about Hakeem is that he had a dominate 5 year run and was great for another 3 to 5 years. One of the best at that position ever?.... Yeah but not near the top of that list IMHO.

Garnett, in my opinion has been the best PF I've seen in overall effectiveness on a team. Malone was a better scorer and Duncan gets all the praise but Garnett's overall game is better than both.


I agree. Hakeem sucked in his first few years in the league. He accomplished absolutely nothing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uha01.html


I thought you were finished. :man10:

Also my suspicions were correct.... But no YouTube links ? That is disappointing

You don't even have the conviction to end a debate and stack to it :man10:


You are the one making the outlandish claim that Olajuwon was some unproven joke who didn't do squat his first few years in the league. I have presented evidence which suggests otherwise. The burden is on you to bring some facts to the table instead of giving your opinion (which anyone can do).

Got that old grumpy guy? (I had to throw that in there since you degraded me with the Youtube comment as if to suggest that I don't actually know this game and haven't played it all my life). :jam2:


Reading comprehension is a good thing kiddo.... Please re-post my words that say Hakeem was an unproven joke that didn't do squat his first few years in the league. While your doing that I'll get the bookmarked posts of your where you argue the complete opposite about the league then and now.....

As for any burdens...... You have yet to even acknowledge the entirety of my previous posts and where I laid out the little timeline fallacy you keep spouting.

Since you are the stat god......while your at it toddle on over to your home page (basketball reference) and take a gander at Hakeem's first couple seasons and who led that team in what. The other center they had at the time was facing up guys from 20 feet end handling the ball like a SF at the time. The stuff Hakeem couldn't do for a few years......wonder where he learned it?

My evaluation isn't based just on stats, here say and YouTube...... My family had 4 season ticket from 1978 to 1991...... I watched him personally...... Did you?..... Judging from your maturity level I'd say you were born about the time he retired
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby John3:16 on Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:20 pm

^^ Please don't mention R____ S________. I can't stand him. 7'4" and thought he was a shooting guard. Put the Lakers out in 86 on one of the luckiest shots I've ever seen. After a Warrior / Rockets game, my friend (high school kid) asked for his autograph and he told him "get out of my face". Class act.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:15 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's true that I can't give a completely accurate assessment of guys I have never seen play. As I've said before, what I can do for these players is go to by common knowledge and general accepted consensus. These players have been discussed ad nauseam for decades, so it's not too hard to get a grasp of where they should be ranked. Yeah, some players might be overrated and some underrated but I have to go by the general consensus. Most "experts", like myself, have never seen Wilt and Russell play, but they also give their list of the best ever. You have to make educated guesses. But at the same time, just because a person saw them play doesn't mean they are more qualified to evaluate them. For example, just because you are alive today doesn't mean you are good at evaluating talent.

Having said that, I do put a lot of emphasis on eras and level of comp. Winning a back to back in the modern era carries more weight for me than say, during Russell's era and even more so for Mikan's era. There's a reason why only the Lakers and Bulls have accomplished three peats in the modern era while Russell's Celtics won 11 rings in his 13 seasons in the league. There is just way too much competition. I don't think any team has even made more than 4 straight finals appearances in the modern era because the competition just catches up to you.

As for KG, he's definitely one of the best PF's ever and maybe the most complete PF ever. He could pretty much do it all. But if I am being objective when comparing him to Hakeem, I have to look at the hardware. Hakeem has 2 finals MVPs, KG has none. And Hakeem did carry two teams on his back to titles which is almost never done and that carries a lot of weight for me. KG had to team up with other superstars to get his ring. You can't discredit his ring it but it's still true. Like I said before, I give more weight to rings won in the modern era than the 60's and prior. But in the case of these two, both played in the modern era so it's easier to compare the two. Hakeem also has one more DPOY award, which is darn impressive when you consider the talented defenders who played in his era (Jordan, Robinson, Rodman, Mutombo, Mourning, etc).

But in terms of individual accomplishments, it's pretty close. But again, when you consider the competition Hakeem had to deal, it's impressive (Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mutombo, Mourning, etc). Because any great player can get All-NBA honors year after year if you have weak comp but quite another to do it against some of the best ever.

So yeah, I do rank Hakeem higher. To me, he's the most complete C ever. No one had his complete game. No one. And you can argue that KG was the most complete PF ever. But Hakeem trumps him in the hardware.


See, this is how limited your apporach is, no context whatsoever, just ring counting, and cherry-picking select accolade(s). Why is it 'cause Akeem has any one particular advantage in an award or so that that automaticially makes him the better player? Those DPOY awards are great, but again, he's not a better defender than Garnett. Garnett played in an era which featured Duncan, who's a better defender than Robinson, Ben Wallace, also a better defender than Olajuwon, and anyone else Akeem played aganist in the 90's, Bruce Bowen, a prime Kobe (who has a boatload of All-Defensive teams to his credit) Shaquille, who was an elite defender at his apex, Ron Artest, who's as good as defender as anyone you named (and I might add the strongest NBA player personally seen since Artis Gilmore. Dikembe has more DPOTY awards than Olajuwon himself, but I'll be darned if that means he was a better defender.

And everyone knows that Garnett was the best player on that Finals team; they won that series with their defense, and Garnett was the one anchoring that zone. Pierce only won that award due to the fact he had to pull a fake Willis Reed, and the fact that it was a Celtic lifetime achievement award for him; people don't realize how much Garnett catered to Pierce's masive ego, to make that union work. For instance, Garnett let Pierce be the last one to be introduced before games, Garnett made a lotta sacrifice.

And yeah, he did team up with a couple quality players, but taken into context, the competition Garnett played aganist evens that out. When Olajuwon won in '94, he didn't face any special centers that run, outside of a past-prime Ewing, and faced teams just as bad, if not worse than his. I repeat, Kobean and James, plus that powerful Pistons dynasty all in one run together trumps the competition Olajuwon faced in '94. ANd let's not forget Olajwuon teamed up himself with a top-45 player in CLyde to win his 2nd ring, and had more HOF's on his team that his entire opposition in '95, I like how you're convenietly only metioning things that fit your biased argument Not to mention, when he won back-to-back, it was when Jordan was striking out at 85 mph fastballs, and when the league was in desperate need of talent. I mean, again I say this, they shortened the three point line for his shooters

You want to discredit the hardware for other players, yet want to credit Akeem for his hardware, when he himself won his in a weaker era than Garnett did his, you're such a hypocrite.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:34 pm

^^^^^

Lol, i guess we aren't getting anywhere. You accuse me of being biased but everything you say about Hakeem is in a negative context. I gave KG all the credit in the world, i just rank Olajuwon higher and gave my reasons why.

Just a tidbit. You know who beat the MJ led Bulls in his short stint back from baseball in 1994-95? The Magic with Shaq/Penny. And yeah, Hakeem's team beat the Magic 4-0 and took Shaq to school. Shaq ranks Hakeem right up there with the best center ever. He said that Hakeem was the one guy he just couldn't handle due to his array of moves.

But anyways, agree to disagree. You rank KG higher, i rank Hakeem higher. No big whoop.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:47 pm

What people need to realize with Akeem, the year he won DPOTY, Finals MVP, and MVP, is that nothing's to be taken away from him for that, he worked his [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] off, and definitely earned those awards. But with the revisionism of Olajuwon's career that's took place over the past several years, people are treating that year like he always played like that, and was finally getting his due or something. No, not even close. Let me put this into perspective, so it can be understood:

Pure hypothetical, let's say Dwight Howard were to accomplish the same feats, let's say next year. Most people wouldn't be saying "see, I KNEW he had it in him!" or "best player in the league" or anything of that nature. Aside from the casuals, most would be saying things something like: "it's about time", "didn't know he had it in him" "WOW!", etc. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Howard's as good as Olajuwon or anything, nor am I trying to imply Olajuwon wasn't great, just making note that those accomplishments for Olajuwon were more or less redemption; remember, he was just removed from having missed the playoffs in his prime, and accused of quitting on his team, faking an injury, due to a contract dispute. Nor was he thought of as good as the likes of Earvin, Jordan, Bird at ANY one point. He was not playing like that his entire career, and he didn't keep it up afterwards either, as evidenced by getting swept out the playoffs right after his title in '96, and failing afterwards with more talent than he's had before

I just have one question for the Olajuwon fans: if he was SO good and dominant during his title runs, how come he wasn't doing this his entire career?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:51 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^^

Lol, i guess we aren't getting anywhere. You accuse me of being biased but everything you say about Hakeem is in a negative context. I gave KG all the credit in the world, i just rank Olajuwon higher and gave my reasons why.

Just a tidbit. You know who beat the MJ led Bulls in his short stint back from baseball in 1994-95? The Magic with Shaq/Penny. And yeah, Hakeem's team beat the Magic 4-0 and took Shaq to school. Shaq ranks Hakeem right up there with the best center ever. He said that Hakeem was the one guy he just couldn't handle due to his array of moves.

But anyways, agree to disagree. You rank KG higher, i rank Hakeem higher. No big whoop.


My "negative context" is in regards to you not seeming to wanna hold Olajwuon accountable. I've already admitted that Garnett isn't without his flaws; he missed the playoffs three straight years, he has his share of first round exits, he had a problem in the clutch at times, was sometimes inefficient, didn't have a go-to move in crunch time like Duncan did. I ask you, why wasn't AKeem doing what he did in 94 and 95 his entire career?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:01 pm

PeediSigel wrote:What people need to realize with Akeem, the year he won DPOTY, Finals MVP, and MVP, is that nothing's to be taken away from him for that, he worked his [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] off, and definitely earned those awards. But with the revisionism of Olajuwon's career that's took place over the past several years, people are treating that year like he always played like that, and was finally getting his due or something. No, not even close. Let me put this into perspective, so it can be understood:

Pure hypothetical, let's say Dwight Howard were to accomplish the same feats, let's say next year. Most people wouldn't be saying "see, I KNEW he had it in him!" or "best player in the league" or anything of that nature. Aside from the casuals, most would be saying things something like: "it's about time", "didn't know he had it in him" "WOW!", etc. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Howard's as good as Olajuwon or anything, nor am I trying to imply Olajuwon wasn't great, just making note that those accomplishments for Olajuwon were more or less redemption; remember, he was just removed from having missed the playoffs in his prime, and accused of quitting on his team, faking an injury, due to a contract dispute. Nor was he thought of as good as the likes of Earvin, Jordan, Bird at ANY one point. He was not playing like that his entire career, and he didn't keep it up afterwards either, as evidenced by getting swept out the playoffs right after his title in '96, and failing afterwards with more talent than he's had before

I just have one question for the Olajuwon fans: if he was SO good and dominant during his title runs, how come he wasn't doing this his entire career?


Is this David Robinson? Lol. Do you realize how baseless your post sounds? We can do this with any great. What was Shaq doing all those years outside of his 3 peat? How come he couldn't win more? Or KG? How come he only won one ring and barely did anything with the Timberwolves? I mean we can do this with any great. You just seem to have a serious disdain for the guy for some reason. This must be David Robinson. Still bitter about the legendary schooling you took? Did you know that year, Robinson was not only the regular season MVP but his Spurs had the best record in the league? The Rockets weren't supposed to win but you keep saying that Hakeem's Rockets had a cake walk in thise two years. Anyways, agree to disagree.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:04 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:What people need to realize with Akeem, the year he won DPOTY, Finals MVP, and MVP, is that nothing's to be taken away from him for that, he worked his [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] off, and definitely earned those awards. But with the revisionism of Olajuwon's career that's took place over the past several years, people are treating that year like he always played like that, and was finally getting his due or something. No, not even close. Let me put this into perspective, so it can be understood:

Pure hypothetical, let's say Dwight Howard were to accomplish the same feats, let's say next year. Most people wouldn't be saying "see, I KNEW he had it in him!" or "best player in the league" or anything of that nature. Aside from the casuals, most would be saying things something like: "it's about time", "didn't know he had it in him" "WOW!", etc. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Howard's as good as Olajuwon or anything, nor am I trying to imply Olajuwon wasn't great, just making note that those accomplishments for Olajuwon were more or less redemption; remember, he was just removed from having missed the playoffs in his prime, and accused of quitting on his team, faking an injury, due to a contract dispute. Nor was he thought of as good as the likes of Earvin, Jordan, Bird at ANY one point. He was not playing like that his entire career, and he didn't keep it up afterwards either, as evidenced by getting swept out the playoffs right after his title in '96, and failing afterwards with more talent than he's had before

I just have one question for the Olajuwon fans: if he was SO good and dominant during his title runs, how come he wasn't doing this his entire career?


Is this David Robinson? Lol. Do you realize how baseless your post sounds? We can do this with any great. What was Shaq doing all those years outside of his 3 peat? How come he couldn't win more? Or KG? How come he only won one ring and barely did anything with the Timberwolves? I mean we can do this with any great. You just seem to have a serious disdain for the guy for some reason. This must be David Robinson. Still bitter about the legendary schooling you took? Did you know that year, Robinson was not only the regular season MVP but his Spurs had the best record in the league? The Rockets weren't supposed to win but you keep saying that Hakeem's Rockets had a cake walk in thise two years. Anyways, agree to disagree.


Ok tell me, why should someone that couldn't make it past the first round more than HALF their career, deserve to be ranked outside the top 25?
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:15 pm

PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^^

Lol, i guess we aren't getting anywhere. You accuse me of being biased but everything you say about Hakeem is in a negative context. I gave KG all the credit in the world, i just rank Olajuwon higher and gave my reasons why.

Just a tidbit. You know who beat the MJ led Bulls in his short stint back from baseball in 1994-95? The Magic with Shaq/Penny. And yeah, Hakeem's team beat the Magic 4-0 and took Shaq to school. Shaq ranks Hakeem right up there with the best center ever. He said that Hakeem was the one guy he just couldn't handle due to his array of moves.

But anyways, agree to disagree. You rank KG higher, i rank Hakeem higher. No big whoop.


My "negative context" is in regards to you not seeming to wanna hold Olajwuon accountable. I've already admitted that Garnett isn't without his flaws; he missed the playoffs three straight years, he has his share of first round exits, he had a problem in the clutch at times, was sometimes inefficient, didn't have a go-to move in crunch time like Duncan did. I ask you, why wasn't AKeem doing what he did in 94 and 95 his entire career?


Same reason why KG couldn't do squat with the Wolves and Kobe from 05-07, lack of a good team. His Rockets did eliminate a prime Showtime Laker team and lost to the legendary Celtics in 6 in the finals. And this was in his 2nd year and he was dominant against the Lakers. I really don't know what you want me to say. He wasn't God and i'm not saying he is in my top 5.
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Re: Isaiah Thomas or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Postby PeediSigel on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:45 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
PeediSigel wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^^

Lol, i guess we aren't getting anywhere. You accuse me of being biased but everything you say about Hakeem is in a negative context. I gave KG all the credit in the world, i just rank Olajuwon higher and gave my reasons why.

Just a tidbit. You know who beat the MJ led Bulls in his short stint back from baseball in 1994-95? The Magic with Shaq/Penny. And yeah, Hakeem's team beat the Magic 4-0 and took Shaq to school. Shaq ranks Hakeem right up there with the best center ever. He said that Hakeem was the one guy he just couldn't handle due to his array of moves.

But anyways, agree to disagree. You rank KG higher, i rank Hakeem higher. No big whoop.


My "negative context" is in regards to you not seeming to wanna hold Olajwuon accountable. I've already admitted that Garnett isn't without his flaws; he missed the playoffs three straight years, he has his share of first round exits, he had a problem in the clutch at times, was sometimes inefficient, didn't have a go-to move in crunch time like Duncan did. I ask you, why wasn't AKeem doing what he did in 94 and 95 his entire career?


Same reason why KG couldn't do squat with the Wolves and Kobe from 05-07, lack of a good team. His Rockets did eliminate a prime Showtime Laker team and lost to the legendary Celtics in 6 in the finals. And this was in his 2nd year and he was dominant against the Lakers. I really don't know what you want me to say. He wasn't God and i'm not saying he is in my top 5.


So you're proving my point that (like KG as well, before you start deflecting) he wasn't much of a factor during those times? Thanks
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