James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:01 pm

^^He scored but look at the rest of that line...... :man10:

Orlando is 2-0... who wouoda thunk.....
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:32 pm

^ Well that kind of tells you how much these early season records mean.

Boston is 1-2, OKC is 1-2, Denver is 0-3, and the Knicks and Magic are 2-0. Hm.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:24 am

therealdeal wrote:^ Well that kind of tells you how much these early season records mean.

Boston is 1-2, OKC is 1-2, Denver is 0-3, and the Knicks and Magic are 2-0. Hm.


I don't know about Orlando being a good team but I do think Denver is going to take a step or two back this year.....
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:59 am

Rooscooter wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ Well that kind of tells you how much these early season records mean.

Boston is 1-2, OKC is 1-2, Denver is 0-3, and the Knicks and Magic are 2-0. Hm.


I don't know about Orlando being a good team but I do think Denver is going to take a step or two back this year.....

I don't know. I think they'll be alright. I see in the West OKC, San Antonio, LA, LA, and maybe Dallas over them. But that's still a solid 5-8th seed team. Not great, but they'll be exciting to watch.

The Magic... Yeah probably not as much. I'm sure Hennigan is pissed they've already won two games. :man10:
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:05 pm

therealdeal wrote:I still don't think he's a MAX player. He's definitely good though, we all knew that.


Harden has talent but no way is he a Max player in my book. I think he will no longer be able to do the same when teams focus on him as the #1 option. Right now he is playing loose and free. I honestly don't think he will keep it up by the end of the season. I agree with Roos (I think said it) that OKC should of gotten rid of Westbrick before Elbowman
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:21 pm

^^The term "Max Player" is so difficult to quantify as is "Franchise Player". 20 to 25 teams will have a "max contract" of some sort on their team.... is that player worth it?... who's to say. If he puts butts in seats the owner may think he's worth it....

As for Harden. I don't like the guy one bit but he's got all the tools to be a Gilbert Arenas (when he was at the top) type of player IMHO.... he can shoot, shoot the 3, get to the hoop and draw fouls, he can pass, he can handle the ball and he can play some decent D when motivated. He's fairly smart and isn't overly selfish.

To compare him to Westbrook isn't really fair if you use the same criteria..... Westbrook is faster with the ball and a better penetrator but that's about it. When he's the guy with the ball in his hand most of the time those aren't necessarily the best attributes.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:34 pm

^ I understand your point. I agree a Max player is going to put butts in the seat and at this point Harden is exciting enough to do that. I think the Gil comparison is good because Harden is a "player" like you said he has the tools. I just don't believe he can do it, like Gil did, as the #1 option. I may be wrong.

As far as Westbrook I think Harden is the better player plain and simple. Westbrook is a gunner albeit talented. James has a better all around game and, as you said, he isn't overly selfish. I think OKC made the wrong choice.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:38 pm

Harden would be an excellent number two option by Durant because he's the better shooter and the more willing passer.

Not to mention, Westbrook might have gotten a better return. That being said, OKC got a lot back for Harden. A lot more than they were expecting I'm sure. It was a good trade for them in the long run.

A MAX player to me is one that can single handedly carry the franchise. I don't think Harden can.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby thkthebest on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:46 pm

A max player to me doesn't have to be a Durant or LeBron level player. To be a championship team, you have to have at least 2 max players these days...and maybe even 3. The Heat had 3. Our #3 and sometimes even #4 option is making max money. Harden so far has been a great #1 option, and I have no doubt in my mind that he would be an amazing #2 guy.

A guy who can single-handedly change a franchise like LeBron or even prime Kobe is actually underpaid to me. They deserve more than the max, but there are restrictions. Well, Kobe's making almost double the max so I guess he really isn't underpaid anymore. Lol.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:33 pm

therealdeal wrote:Harden would be an excellent number two option by Durant because he's the better shooter and the more willing passer.

Not to mention, Westbrook might have gotten a better return. That being said, OKC got a lot back for Harden. A lot more than they were expecting I'm sure. It was a good trade for them in the long run.

A MAX player to me is one that can single handedly carry the franchise. I don't think Harden can.


If that's your "MAX" player definition..... who other than LeBron in today's league is a "MAX" player....

Those days are gone for Kobe.... and Wade (if they were ever there in the first place). Howard isn't that guy because of some serious flaws and Center's very rarely "carry" their team in the modern NBA.... That leaves Durant as the only other one out there and I don't think he can carry a franchise like Kobe did in 2006....

So I guess by that criteria LeBron is the only MAX player.....

I think I'd make the definition a little wider than that.....
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:30 am

No I like my definition.

There's a few exceptions because of age, but if you're doling out MAX contracts to younger guys (but not Rooke Contract young):
Howard of course fits. He's the biggest mismatch in the league as far as big men go and he took that team to the Finals. Rose gets it because when healthy he gets his team to the 2nd round. Durant and LeBron are obvious. I'd include Chris Paul here although that's close. I'd think about maybe a few other names, but those are the only ones that come to mind.

Guys who are close: Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams, Kevin Love, Rajon Rondo. Kobe.

Of course some guys are going to get MAX contracts (or comparable price tags) based on age. Kobe fits here with Pau. You can include Duncan and Garnett in here. There's others but those are obvious ones. Kobe would get a MAX contract from me if the MAX for him was a reasonable amount, but the MAX for him is 30 million dollars. No one in the league is worth that much with the new CBA coming into effect.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby abeer3 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:07 am

eh, max player is an arbitrary distinction. as has been stated, there's probably 20-25 guys in the league that are going to get max contracts, and there's a handful of guys (usually about 5 or 6) that are actually worth MORE than that, and thus represent a bargain.

harden is probably worth his salary, but not more. lebron is probably worth twice his salary in terms of on-court impact. this is why max deals are silly and a pretty large part of why the league's haves and have-nots don't switch places very often.

when the lakers got howard this summer, they ensured that they'll be one of five or so teams that has one of these guys who is essentially a bargain at the max. stern blocked the cp deal because he knew the importance of getting that guy, and that if the lakers got paul, they were going to get howard, too.

anyway, back to the issue at hand: harden will be worth his money for the duration of the contract, but houston won't win anything until harden is their second best player. it's getting that top guy that matters. ironically, their best shot was probably via the high lotto pick that they won't have now. welcome to atlanta hawksville, houston. it does beat where they were, though.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Finwë on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:21 am

Has Lamb played a game for OKC yet? He wasn't playing against Atlanta, but I didn't watch any of their other games. He's supposed to be pretty good (better than Maynor for sure)
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:42 am

abeer3 wrote:eh, max player is an arbitrary distinction.

I don't think it's arbitrary, but I agree with everything you said. It's just my opinion on who is worth that kind of money if I were a GM.

I know obviously that a lot of guys will get that kind of money, even if they don't deserve it (Iguodala, Harden, Gay, etc.)
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby abeer3 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:08 am

yeah, the theory under the new cba was that the hard-ish cap would drive the salaries of guys like ibaka and harden down, but it hasn't. and it won't, imo. one thing it has done and will continue to do is halt some of the full MLE craziness we've seen over time. a guy like barbosa having to settle for a vet min from a contender wouldn't have happened two years ago. of course, the unintended consequence of such things is that teams like boston or the lakers or going to have first dibs on those guys. so, big surprise, owners will spend less money, but it will do nothing to even out the talent distribution in the league. which is ok by them, as that was never the point of the lockout, just how they sold fans and media on their cash grab.

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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:16 am

Oh I'm with you. The way the CBA is constructed good-to-great players are more valuable than ever. The bigger contracts won't be the ones reduced at all, the smaller ones will. So all of that fighting for the little man type stuff that was the rhetoric then is full of bologna. The small time players are the ones who will suffer.

And of course none of this had to do with parity. The small market owners for the most part don't care if they're successful, they care if they're making money. Teams like LA and New York will fill the coffers for the league for some time to come.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby FabFourLakers on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:13 pm

abeer3 wrote:eh, max player is an arbitrary distinction. as has been stated, there's probably 20-25 guys in the league that are going to get max contracts, and there's a handful of guys (usually about 5 or 6) that are actually worth MORE than that, and thus represent a bargain.

harden is probably worth his salary, but not more. lebron is probably worth twice his salary in terms of on-court impact. this is why max deals are silly and a pretty large part of why the league's haves and have-nots don't switch places very often.

when the lakers got howard this summer, they ensured that they'll be one of five or so teams that has one of these guys who is essentially a bargain at the max. stern blocked the cp deal because he knew the importance of getting that guy, and that if the lakers got paul, they were going to get howard, too.

anyway, back to the issue at hand: harden will be worth his money for the duration of the contract, but houston won't win anything until harden is their second best player. it's getting that top guy that matters. ironically, their best shot was probably via the high lotto pick that they won't have now. welcome to atlanta hawksville, houston. it does beat where they were, though.



I thought for the first time in a WHILE, the houston rockets finally cashed in on all their "assets" that they've been stockpiling for years. They have been HOARDING first rounders and trading players for first round picks for TOO long...I think they have put themselves in a great position to acquire another star player in the summer. I think Harden is actually a #1 option...he just needs a solid #2. Let's see what he can do with this young Rockets team and so far, so good. They still have a ton of young guys on the roster, i'd probably look to package a few of those guys and get another star before summer hits...try to get a big 3 going in Houston with Harden and 2 other all stars....
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby abeer3 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 pm

again, what's a "star"? al jefferson? josh smith on a max deal? unless harden is really going to just translate his efficiency to a higher usage rate (and thus be, essentially, michael jordan), i think you're still looking at a 4/5 seed after such an addition. remember, it's an 82 game season, not a 3 game season. harden has to prove he can do this, as the #1 guy, over the course of a season, and have it translate to wins. if that doesn't happen, he's not a true #1; he's a robin masquerading as a batman, a situation with which many teams are familiar.

no shame in that, but suggestions that morey's plan finally worked are a bit off, imo. his plan was to create a contender via the asset hoarding, not a mid-tier playoff team. the target was dwight howard or chris paul, not harden. his "revolutionary" tactics have taken a franchise from sub-mediocrity to just a cut above mediocrity. again, better is better, but it's not what has been advertised by his acolytes for the past five years.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby therealdeal on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:55 pm

And I'm not sold it's better. I'd rather suck then be stuck in 5th place. When I suck I'm in a better position because I know I suck. Houston, if they look alright this season, will attract a guy that'll help them be a 4th seed or so. Then they'll be a good team. But they won't be a great team, they'll just be... good.

For instance, I think if San Antonio was in a bigger market, their last few years wouldn't be so hot.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby ZenMaster4President on Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:47 pm

Well... so far he is at 35/6/6 :man4: through 3 games at 52% or something. Also almost 5 TOs.

Not that I think he keeps this up, but those are MAX player numbers. Lebronesque.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby thkthebest on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Iggy with that defense. He locked down Harden tonight.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Ras Algethi on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:12 am

Harden will come down to earth. Teams will start preparing for him like they do other elite players.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:38 am

$80 million? :man4: :man4: :man4: No wonder OKC cut him loose. I know he had two stellar games, but I wouldn't throw that much cash his way.
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby lakersyunowin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:06 am

Ras Algethi wrote:Harden will come down to earth. Teams will start preparing for him like they do other elite players.


already did a bit tonight. a bit of a pedestrian outing, but not like he's gonna score 40 every night
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Re: James Harden: $80m Extension With Rockets

Postby abeer3 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:20 pm

my expectations for harden were 25/5/5 on 45% shooting or less (numbers i've seen thrown around by others). the key beyond that is whether his team is winning with that production. those numbers aren't far off from what kevin martin did in his sacramento heyday or what joe johnson did in atlanta. were they considered superstars? no. were they worth 15 million per at the time? probably.

harden will be worth his contract for its entirety, barring injury. but max dollars doesn't = top tier player.
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