Linsanity: Career high 38

therealdeal wrote:

fkmikebrown wrote:

Scored 38 points in a loss toinght. But Harden didn't play. Maybe hes at his best when he controls the ball most of the time? Took Spurs to OT tonight

He, like most other point guards need the ball to be effective. A hell of a game by him. The Rockets should trade Lin for a shooter like Mo Williams.

therealdeal wrote:He's Tim Tebow. He's exciting, but he's consuming, and he needs everything to be effective. But even when you give him everything, your chances of winning won't be as great as if you spread the love.

I disagree. He needs the ball. That winning streak the Knicks went on last year wasn't a fluke... it was because Lin was playing superstar level basketball. Give that boy the ball.

I always thought he was a good, talented player when he was riding the bench back at Golden State and cracking garbage minutes in preseason games. He was just underrated because he is an Asian kid in the NBA which is a rarity. It's been the reason he flew under the radar. He was treated as "well, he's good enough to at least make it to the league" and was always given scraps for opportunity. When he got a good opportunity, the real Lin came out.

therealdeal wrote:He's Tim Tebow. He's exciting, but he's consuming, and he needs everything to be effective. But even when you give him everything, your chances of winning won't be as great as if you spread the love.

I have been quiet during Lakers mess right now, but from what I seen from Lin I disagree. Always been a Lin fan. I watched the Rockets this year(it's great since you can get away from all the Lakers disaster ongoing right now) and they regulated him to a spot up shooter who brings the ball up and hands it to Harden. Last game, Harden was out with a injury and Lin exploded into the player we saw last year. Even with the scouting reports, and took one of the league best Spurs to OT(could have won it but Houston's supporting cast is subpar, to say the least), when they lost to them in a 30 point blowout a few days ago.

Tim Tebow is a one hit wonder, a guy who can't dominate a whole game but pulls off some miracle in the end. Lin can singlehandly dominate and make his team better throughout the whole game, he had Spurs doubling and tripling him and trying to get the balls out of his hand. Lin is a legit starter/potential star in this league, who's still young and not even in his prime. These stupid comparisons must be stopped. I'm high on him, I want the Lakers to get him.

He's young, he's in his 2nd year of playing, how many superstars are made in the 2nd year? Not even Kobe was a star until a few years in. Given what Lin has done in the small time period, it's not that far off to say he can be a star. Steve Nash in his first few years was half a scrub. Rondo was considered to be a avg PG benefiting from playing with the Big 3 and the system for about 5 years. Westbrook in his first 2 seasons was a overlooked chucker, only to explode in the seasons after that.

Lin does have a potential to be a star, but right now he can't dominate with another star player. Your "he needs everything to be effective" is true, he's only can achieve a superstar level if the game is run through him. That's a big problem. But the fact he can even reach a superstar level is pretty scary. Considering the league nowadays are run by superteams, Lin being the only star player on his team will not work. If he fixes that, him and Harden/other star player tandems will be something to fear. Oh, and facts/history proves that "your chances of winning is worse" is just you talking out of your a'ss, most of Linsanity was based on the fact he elevated a team of scrubs to 7 straight wins. He took a subpar team yesterday to OT with the Spurs yesterday, and they had a great chance of winning the game.

Lin's problem this entire season was the lack of confidence. He's been sidelined for a while so I guess it's natural. It also doesn't help when your coach stops playing you in the 4th quarter every single time for a worse player.

Last game, Lin was shooting 3s without any hesitation. He hasn't done that all season. He actually attacked the basket. Now, he needs to play like that with Harden in the lineup.

Rockets also subbed out Lin in that 4th quarter, and that's when the Spurs caught up. Rockets were up by like 7 or 8 when Lin went out. When he came back, that lead was gone. Lin did look like he was dying from exhaustion though so a short rest is fine, but he needed to come back sooner.

what do you do when a team decides to put some pressure defense on him? chalmers basically raped him last year and i don't think that will change anytime soon.

purp n gold wrote:

fkmikebrown wrote:

gill wrote:

so, he plays sub-average for 20 games, and then everyone shows up after one good one to proclaim that they were right about his impending stardom.

still not that impressed.

therealdeal wrote:

Lakeshow24 wrote:

therealdeal wrote:He's Tim Tebow. He's exciting, but he's consuming, and he needs everything to be effective. But even when you give him everything, your chances of winning won't be as great as if you spread the love.

I disagree. He needs the ball. That winning streak the Knicks went on last year wasn't a fluke... it was because Lin was playing superstar level basketball. Give that boy the ball.

I always thought he was a good, talented player when he was riding the bench back at Golden State and cracking garbage minutes in preseason games. He was just underrated because he is an Asian kid in the NBA which is a rarity. It's been the reason he flew under the radar. He was treated as "well, he's good enough to at least make it to the league" and was always given scraps for opportunity. When he got a good opportunity, the real Lin came out.

Do you really think that the Lin-lead Knicks would have contended with Miami for a 7 game series? My point is that in order for him to be effective, he MUST control the ball and the team MUST be built around him. Just like Tebow.

However, just like Tebow, I don't think that a team built around either of those guys can win a Championship. Just my opinion.

To be honest, a team built around PG's probably is not going to win a ship. Who knows, Lin may be a franchise player, but franchise PG's don't win ships. The greatest PG's of our decade have tried, and come up short. If you're going to say Tebow, you might as well say any PG that a team is build around is Tebow, including Iverson and Rose. These guys had the roster handcrafted for them with defensive specialist and court spreaders and still fell short. It's just that PG's don't win championships, especially in this era of superteams. And it's a very bad comparison, I'm sure you could have thought of a better analogy because until you explained it, I was lost at the comparison besides the fact they both had great games. And Tebow was heavily hyped even in HS/College and coming into the NFL, Lin was a undrafted guy no one knew.

But Lin has shown he can play at a super star level as such a young age and little experience. If Lin finds out how to coexist with other stars/superstars and not just role players, he can be something scary(and great) imo. That's why I'm pushing for the Lakers to get him. Gasol for Lin+other pieces from Rockets isn't a bad deal for them and a great deal for us. Plus D'antoni will be licking him chops at getting Lin. He's getting paid 8 mil a year, which is what the Mike Conleys, George Hills, and Mo Williams of the league are getting paid. He's getting paid a avg starting PG salary, all he needs to do is do 12/6 to live up to his contract but he comes along with the potential of being a star player while the other PG's with a similar contract already reached their ceiling.

abeer3 wrote:so, he plays sub-average for 20 games, and then everyone shows up after one good one to proclaim that they were right about his impending stardom.

still not that impressed.

More of the fact that Lin was made into a spot up 3 point shooter and deferring to Harden every game before this. With Harden out, Lin was allowed to play his game and proved that he can definitely ball if given the chance.

Even the Rockets coaching staff said that they are trying to fix the Harden-Lin backcourt to work, and they said already that they're already trying to run more plays and have Lin handle the ball more. Cause right now they both can't coexist with each other since they both are ball dominant and need the ball in their hands. Most of the time, Lin just sits there and watches while Harden ISO's. He also plays very passive with Harden on the court, preferring to pass and defer to Harden instead of driving in. Before this game, Lin was dribbling the ball up the court then hands it off to Harden and goes and camps at the 3 point line every play. Of course, if you watched some games instead of commenting out of ignorance you would know this.

And his "good games" are monster superstar level games that only elite players have pulled off, especially at such a young age. And to pull off games like this twice like Lin did, only about 30 players have done this. That's what makes him intriguing. Statistics to back it up:http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=24683003&postcount=43. There's a even more in depth post on other NBA forums, but I'm only posting this one cause it's the easiest one to find.

commenting out of ignorance, eh?

lin's an average to below average nba player. in 33mpg, he's putting up 11/6 on 39% shooting. so, he's almost as good as rafer alston was in houston. keep in mind that houston's system also tends to create exaggerated production from its primary ballhandlers (see aaron brooks, kyle lowry, and goran dragic, for recent examples).

if he can only play one way, he's not that good. if he can't force his coaching staff to center the offense around him instead of harden, maybe he's just not that good.

here's how he's impacting his team when he's on the floor this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU2.HTM

hint: look way down the list.


if you can't handle this, see a therapist, but don't suggest that i'm ignorant because you bought the small sample size output. i'm ignoring the anomaly and focusing on the overall trend towards mediocrity.

abeer3 wrote:commenting out of ignorance, eh?

lin's an average to below average nba player. in 33mpg, he's putting up 11/6 on 39% shooting. so, he's almost as good as rafer alston was in houston. keep in mind that houston's system also tends to create exaggerated production from its primary ballhandlers (see aaron brooks, kyle lowry, and goran dragic, for recent examples).

if he can only play one way, he's not that good. if he can't force his coaching staff to center the offense around him instead of harden, maybe he's just not that good.

here's how he's impacting his team when he's on the floor this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU2.HTM

hint: look way down the list.


if you can't handle this, see a therapist, but don't suggest that i'm ignorant because you bought the small sample size output. i'm ignoring the anomaly and focusing on the overall trend towards mediocrity.

Except Aaron brooks, lowry, and dragic were all primary ball handlers who were allowed to be ball dominant(which Harden is doing now), while Lin was being used as a spot up 3 point shooter? Except those guards didn't have to play with Houston's new franchise "superstar" and defer to them every play? Your statement has no meaning seeing how Lin is not the primary ball handler on his team, and Harden is. Houston fans are complaining that they are using Lin as a SG while Harden as a PG.

If it's spot up shooting, even Toney Douglas can do it better than Lin. Lin's a slasher, and he's one of the rare players in the NBA who shoots better off the dribble than spot up(I can find statistics to show this if you want).

Houston is already trying to make Harden-Lin backcourt work(the coaches admitted this problem and said they had to get the ball more in Lin's hand and see how they work together), but you're not going to make Lin with the 25 million contract a #1 option over Harden with the max 80 million contract. Doing so basically admits that Harden is not a franchise player, and they payed max for a player who's going to be a 2nd option under a young basically rookie.It's just like before where you're not going to put Amare Stoudemire on the bench as a 6th man when you're paying him a max 100 million contract, which is why Knicks have been repeatedly forced the issue of making Melo and Stoudemire work(although now that Knicks are rolling without Stoudemire, they have said they don't know his role and the coach inferred that he might come off the bench as a 6th man). Houston is the same. At most, they're going to make it so they can play off each other to be a 1a/1b option or Harden as #1 and Lin as #2. If they don't work, Lin will probably get traded.

Oh and if you're insisting on efficiency rating and how he affects his team, there were charts/statistics showing that Lin doubles his avg production and efficiency when Harden is off the court, while he halves his avg production and efficiency when Harden is on the court. Seeing how he plays with Harden 80% of the time...you can see they don't work together atm. That's why Houston tried having Harden and Lin in at seperate times last game, but for them to be good, they need to both be on the court and dominating. When Harden goes on the court, Lin regresses. Not a good sign. You're right that Lin needs to be able to be play with other stars, but he's still young and it's 20 games in so I think it's premature to judge him so fast. I think he has a lot of potential

Tbh, I don't think Harden is a great first option either though. Besides his first 2 games, and his recent 30 point games where he chucked the ball up like 30 times, he's been actually avging under 40% shooting with 20 ppg. His ISO succession rate is down to 25% from 50% at OKC, and Harden ISO's on over half the plays. He avgs almost the same amount of turnovers a game as assists.

abeer3 wrote:commenting out of ignorance, eh?

lin's an average to below average nba player. in 33mpg, he's putting up 11/6 on 39% shooting. so, he's almost as good as rafer alston was in houston. keep in mind that houston's system also tends to create exaggerated production from its primary ballhandlers (see aaron brooks, kyle lowry, and goran dragic, for recent examples).

if he can only play one way, he's not that good. if he can't force his coaching staff to center the offense around him instead of harden, maybe he's just not that good.

here's how he's impacting his team when he's on the floor this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU2.HTM

hint: look way down the list.


if you can't handle this, see a therapist, but don't suggest that i'm ignorant because you bought the small sample size output. i'm ignoring the anomaly and focusing on the overall trend towards mediocrity.

Also according to Hollinger a day ago, Lin had an AST of 29.9 and his USG was 19.0, while Harden's AST was only 18.0 on USG 26.7. What that means is that Harden has the ball 26.7/19.0 more of the time, but producing much less assists than Lin each time he had the ball in his control. Harden also avg's 4 turnover per game to his 5 assists a game, one of the worst Assist/Turnover ratio in the league.

Again this shows that Harden is the playmaker of the team and has the ball more than Lin yet is not a PG and does worse than Lin as a PG.

so, if the team moves harden off the ball, lin will be a superstar and the team will win more?

love to see it.

abeer3 wrote:commenting out of ignorance, eh?

lin's an average to below average nba player. in 33mpg, he's putting up 11/6 on 39% shooting. so, he's almost as good as rafer alston was in houston. keep in mind that houston's system also tends to create exaggerated production from its primary ballhandlers (see aaron brooks, kyle lowry, and goran dragic, for recent examples).

if he can only play one way, he's not that good. if he can't force his coaching staff to center the offense around him instead of harden, maybe he's just not that good.

here's how he's impacting his team when he's on the floor this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU2.HTM

hint: look way down the list.


if you can't handle this, see a therapist, but don't suggest that i'm ignorant because you bought the small sample size output. i'm ignoring the anomaly and focusing on the overall trend towards mediocrity.

You should put more emphasis on the adjusted +/- numbers.

Harden is first.
Asik is second.
Lin is third.

Lin doesn't have a great RAPM but it's not bad. He really needs to figure out how to play with Harden and stop being so passive. His offensive game is up/down. I like his defense though.

i never argued he was bad; i argued that he wasn't that good.

i see some of lakerboy's points about proper usage, but they don't change things for me. they work around harden because he's better. when you're a complementary player, you get in where you fit in. if you can't, maybe you're not that good.

IF you built around lin, his numbers would look better, but it's not a winning proposition. building around harden might not be, either, but it beats building around lin.

Lin is a good player. He needs to improve his shooting if he wants to move up to the next level. Because I see Lin excelling in a fast break attacking type of offense (ala D'Antoni). When they are playing half court, the game slows down, and he is forced to shoot more...which is not his current strength. I see Lin as a Nash type of player, obviously he is not there yet, but he's still young and can develop.

i'll regret pursuing this further: but what exactly makes people to go the nash comparison. nash is an otherworldly shooter, and twice the ballhandler. their games really aren't similar at all, imo. lin reminds me a bit of bob sura.

Yea, Lin has a loong way to go before he reaches Nash's offensive genius, and he's more of a scorer than Nash.

I can only think of two reasons why people compare him to Nash. Lin likes to run the pick and roll, and he isn't black.