Luke Walton: Legendary "Appreciation" Thread

vlad>luke. still.

but vlad had enough and now he is gone..

oh well we move on.

its one thing to support Luke its another to present mind boggling facts to make it seem as though w/o him this team would suffer ....i.e. the records w/Luke in starting lineup and the 11-0 record with him playing 20mpg+, I'll admit I can't explain it but I'm dam sure w/o him this team would just the same record if not better, while only 1 gm, the char. gm was case in point, not saying its all his fault but his forced inbounds pass seems to go against logic for his strength of high BBALL IQ.

Thanks for the analysis borri. Now I don't have to do it. Seems to me to indicate that the 3 spot isn't really what's driving the team as far as wins and losses. Further, while Luke may not be responsible for losses, he's also not responsible for wins. He works with Jackson's system (sort of) and he provides some degree of cohesion on the offensive end. He does not have a reliable 3 point shot so teams are able to pack the paint on defense causing problems especially when we have Bynum and Pau already bringing their men close to the hoop. His decision making is simultaneously his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. He makes spectacular passes at times while at others he appears to be over thinking what he's going to do resulting in ill advised shots or passes. I notice his shots are an afterthought with him. When he's aggressive, he seems to be a lot more successful. On the defensive end he cannot keep up with the speedier SFs or in help situations, but does a serviceable job of man defense. Fisher seems to have the same problem, but that's a whole other story.

Barring a miracle, Luke is staying. I don't hate him, I just hate the way he plays sometimes.

You rely on 'help value' to make comparisons between players, yet never really wanted to directly answer my question earlier regarding help value (no surprise). The question was, who would you expect to have better 'help value' in the game @ Knicks when Kobe scored 61. Kobe or Luke? You didn't answer the question, and time has run out (you've made multiple posts in between though). The answer is: Luke Walton.

Actually I did answer your question....you have to look back to the post and see my edit. I even told you to "See above" a few posts later... I told you it was Luke who had a better hv than Kobe in NY. I also said that it didn't matter (the difference in hv was 6) given that Kobe posted prod and eff stats that were off the charts in that game. What's also interesting is that for a guy with the "highest b-ball IQ"....Luke's hv of 8 wasn't even close to leading the team. Lamar and Pau tied for best, I believe (I can't actually popcornmachine here at work....so I'm going by memory).

As I've stated before, clearly Vlad > Luke in a one to one comparison. The debate gets much more muddled when we look at stats that seem to indicate the overall team performs somewhat better with Luke than with Vlad. Even if Luke doesn't directly account for any wins and Vlad doesn't directly account for any losses, it's entirely plausible that their indirect effects on their teammates do lead to the seemingly contradictory stats we see. In other words, Luke elevates his teammates a bit more than Vlad did, which is not surprising since Vlad honestly only contributed when his shot was on and many times he was cold.

The problem with this line of thinking (which is a cop-out and so much hand waving) is the assumption of causality without providing any actual causal elements underlying the possible relationship.

It's a black box....which in rigorous statistical terms is garbage...it's nothing. It's basically a set of finite observations which say....if you plug in A, then more often than not, you get B, but we don't know why, it just happens...and Luke is the cause.

kray - I actually agree with you that statistics are misleading and cannot be used to establish causal relationships without rigorous and controlled experiments. This is why I said in my post you quoted that's it plausible (but not proven) that Luke elevates his teammates more so than Vlad did when on the court. It's so far the most appropriate conclusion that fits all of the evidence the best so far.

Of course that's also a two way street, making it also rather meaningless to suggest Vlad is superior to Luke based on statistics. The bottom line is we cannot account for the subtle ways these two players affect their teammates and the many nuances of the game, so we can only propose a hypothesis as I have done.

Also, while we shouldn't accept statistics as a proof of a causal relationship, we also shouldn't completely reject them as meaningless. Statistics often do point to underlying connections and correlations, so we can't just dismiss the positive stats for Luke and just focus on the negative ones much in the same way we shouldn't forget the good plays Luke makes and just remember the bad ones. That's selective thinking, and that is just as deceitful as saying statistics are a definite proof for a causal relationship.

I do agree that it's a myth that Luke has the highest basketball IQ on this team. As I explained before in an earlier post in this thread, Luke is much too slow in his decision making so while he may be knowledgeable about the game he doesn't always show it. Combined with his lack of physical speed, his slow mental speed often causes him to commit the silly turnovers that the fans can't stand.

That being said, he's still a serviceable role player who at the very least doesn't hurt his team when he's on the court, and at the most he may even elevate his teammates a bit.

BTW, here are the numbers you were looking for:
Gasol's hv for the Knicks game: 19
Odom's hv for the Knicks game: 19
Walton's hv for the Knicks game: 8

sugi942 wrote:Thanks for the analysis borri. Now I don't have to do it. Seems to me to indicate that the 3 spot isn't really what's driving the team as far as wins and losses. Further, while Luke may not be responsible for losses, he's also not responsible for wins. He works with Jackson's system (sort of) and he provides some degree of cohesion on the offensive end. He does not have a reliable 3 point shot so teams are able to pack the paint on defense causing problems especially when we have Bynum and Pau already bringing their men close to the hoop. His decision making is simultaneously his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. He makes spectacular passes at times while at others he appears to be over thinking what he's going to do resulting in ill advised shots or passes. I notice his shots are an afterthought with him. When he's aggressive, he seems to be a lot more successful. On the defensive end he cannot keep up with the speedier SFs or in help situations, but does a serviceable job of man defense. Fisher seems to have the same problem, but that's a whole other story.

Barring a miracle, Luke is staying. I don't hate him, I just hate the way he plays sometimes.

I am still worried. I do think Luke hurts us more than helps...especially come playoff time. Heres why:

1. Spacing. Good defensive teams with smart coaches will tell Luke's defender to stay off him and roam. That's what BOS did to us last year with LO. There wont be much operating room in the middle and lanes. Kobe won't be able to drive if his shot is off. I think you will agree with me that the playoffs is an entirely different animal. Games slow down, defenses bunker down. I guarantee you CLE and BOS will EXPLOIT this for 2 purposes: 1. To cheat and help rotate on D for Kobe and our interior. 2. Rest their superstar...Lebron and PP. They can pretty much take plays off when they don't have to cheat off Luke.

2. Kobe must play hard on BOTH ends of the floor. Playing Luke pretty much FORCES us to play Kobe on PP or Lebron almost from the get go. I don't like it that our superstar has to expend alot of energy on D....especially in a 7 games series. Kobe's offense is pivotal for us.

3. This applies only to BOS....as PJ has Kobe playing Lebron from the get go. This deals with PP. PJ allows Walton to play him early. In BOTH games....BOS for some reason refused to attack us with PP against Luke as the FIRST OPTION. They instead went through Rondo first for some stupid reason I have yet to figure out. Both games, Rondo was off in the first Q...never allowing BOS's offense to get into rhythm right away. I think that's the reason why BOS never got into a groove offensively against us. Bad stupid coaching by Rivers.

Remember last year...PP was in attack mode and was pretty much the first option on offense. He predictably abused Vlad...never was a fair matchup. Neither is the Luke match up with PP fair to us. I have a feeling that come Finals if we meet BOS...Rivers will wise up and attack Luke with PP from the get go. That could get ugly for us quick. Pts, foul trouble + Kobe having to go and guard PP sooner than we would like.

In response to point #2, most of the time LBJ or PP is on Kobe as well so that's not a good comparison.

I would also like to point out that BOS is is probably the toughest matchup for us in the leage as Kobe has to decide between guarding PP or RA since Walton and Fisher really can't guard either. In that series one would hope PJ starts Ariza since the second unit doesn't get alot of burn time anyway, but who starts if we play BOS in a series again is something none of us knows how well that will pan out since Ariza was out all but 2 games last year and even then it was clear he was out of sync.

so, last 2 gms.....still wondering why there is hate? Although i will concede that his 20mpg+ FACT is impressive because he did play 20min+ against OKC and we won but today only 17mins and we lost dam you Phil for not recognizing that stat line

To the OP, really you don't get it, REALLY you don't get it?

Let's trade Luke for Vlad.

i miss vlad

atleast with him on the bench there was the comfort that if luke [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] up too much he can be benched..

now its just

i pray morrison somehow does a 180* and like that one poster who started that thread... supplants luke walton as the starting sf.

nameant wrote:Let's trade Luke for Vlad.

or a new ball boy

Every minute that Luke steals from Ariza is important to note. Tonight, it was enough to bog down several key opportunities to stretch the lead in the third quarter.

The missed opportunity cost of playing Luke is something that you won't find in any stat sheet or box score.

Now someone might be able to get it.

What was Vlad's line again tonight?

Oops...I forgot, he's unprofessional, his defense sucks,and he wears Vans to practice.

Eff Luke....

I remember when we were stacked at SF. I'd rather see Sun or Morrison in there than Luke.

I'd rather see DJ playing SF. Yes, Luke is that bad.

Now Phil's running Sasha in there at crunchtime when he needs a spacer and a shooter in the clutch. You all saw the results. Who'd you rather have taking an open three?

Damn...Vlad pissed me off, but I have officially given up on Luke. At least Vlad got hot occasionally and was a threat out there. With Luke on the floor it's honestly like 4 vs. 5.

as those who dont get it WE the haters are failing to see his intangibles, like his awesome passing abilities which I could count at least 3 which had me scratching my head. Then there's his bball IQ, which I guess I didn't see tonight unless someone can point one out to me, I always thought this was suppose to be his trait that would replace his unathleticiness, i.e. missing that layup even though he was barely touched an fouled and then missed both FT's. Not sure who he was guarding so I can't really comment on his D though.

khmrP wrote:Not sure who he was guarding so I can't really comment on his D though.

He wasn't guarding anyone. No wonder you don't remember anything.

kray28 wrote:What was Vlad's line again tonight?

Oops...I forgot, he's unprofessional, his defense sucks,and he wears Vans to practice.

Eff Luke....

i'd rather have vlad in vans than luke anywhere near the floor

Do ya get the hate now?

where has the OP, WeloveLA been... i really want to hear what he has to say.