Luke Walton: Legendary "Appreciation" Thread

Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:00 am

Now having said this, Luke wasn't the only reason why the Lakers lost. It takes a team effort to win, and it also takes a team effort to lose. The entire team seemed allergic to defense the entire game, and the fact that they gave up 113 points in regulation is a testament to their lack of defense. Luke contributed to that, but he's not alone in making mistakes.

To suggest this loss is mostly due to Luke is just using him as a scapegoat/whipping boy to make it appear as if there's an easy explanation for the loss and hence an easy solution to prevent future breakdowns against inferior teams.


I don't think anyone is saying the loss rests solely on Luke....but citing him as a contributing factor. That is all. Given his minutes last night, he contributed very little on the floor.

His dropoff in performance seems even more pronounced since Vlad's departure....which is even worse. No pressure for his starting position (people are dreaming if they think Morrison has any shot of replacing him as a starter), and he's slacking even worse.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby RushDelivery on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:10 am

kray28 wrote:I don't think anyone is saying the loss rests solely on Luke....but citing him as a contributing factor. That is all. Given his minutes last night, he contributed very little on the floor.

His dropoff in performance seems even more pronounced since Vlad's departure....which is even worse. No pressure for his starting position (people are dreaming if they think Morrison has any shot of replacing him as a starter), and he's slacking even worse.

I wasn't directing this part of my response at you or anyone, it was more of a general statement. I know you don't think Luke was the only one making mistakes against the Jazz.

Ironically the streak that defies explanation continues. Luke played under 20 min (18 min) in the loss to Utah, so the Lakers remain undefeated when Luke plays more than 20 min. I'm not saying the stat means anything at all, it's just one of those odd stats that's hard to explain given what we see happening on the court.

Also, despite how poorly Luke played, he still had a +1 in the +/- stats. I know that doesn't mean he played well and I'm not saying he did, but it does mean that as a team the Lakers outscored the Jazz when Luke was on the court (for comparison Ariza had a -14). Just another odd and hard to explain stat.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby ShaqDieselLaker on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:47 am

RushDelivery wrote:
kray28 wrote:I don't think anyone is saying the loss rests solely on Luke....but citing him as a contributing factor. That is all. Given his minutes last night, he contributed very little on the floor.

His dropoff in performance seems even more pronounced since Vlad's departure....which is even worse. No pressure for his starting position (people are dreaming if they think Morrison has any shot of replacing him as a starter), and he's slacking even worse.

I wasn't directing this part of my response at you or anyone, it was more of a general statement. I know you don't think Luke was the only one making mistakes against the Jazz.

Ironically the streak that defies explanation continues. Luke played under 20 min (18 min) in the loss to Utah, so the Lakers remain undefeated when Luke plays more than 20 min. I'm not saying the stat means anything at all, it's just one of those odd stats that's hard to explain given what we see happening on the court.

Also, despite how poorly Luke played, he still had a +1 in the +/- stats. I know that doesn't mean he played well and I'm not saying he did, but it does mean that as a team the Lakers outscored the Jazz when Luke was on the court (for comparison Ariza had a -14). Just another odd and hard to explain stat.

There are some players who have great stats and play great too, then there are those who have good stats but have terrible games. Mathematics and statistics is limited in its scope of predicting true success.

One thing that you didn't factor in was the fact that Luke was playing with Kobe and the starting lineup while Ariza also played with the bench mob. Anyone who plays with Kobe is going to see some boost in stats. When you watch the game, you truly know REAL stats. Luke gets burned on many plays, that doesn't show up in the stats but it should. Luke passes up shots when he wide open. That doesn't show up. Luke doesn't have the speed to outrun 7'0 Mehmet Okur. Not in the stats.

If the stats were actually more representative of the play on the court, Luke would be competing for 1st place as the worst starter in the league.

For some reason NBA stats are an incomplete and often false representation of actual play.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby khmrP on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:54 am

then why bother posting those stats up? You see with your own EYES, dont let #'s fool you, that 20mpg+ is just ridiculous to think that luke is/was a major part of that streak...I've accepted the same of Odom but in a positive manner, he does things that dont show up on stat sheet so at times he has a sub par game stat wise but was integral part of the win. As oppose to Luke with these ridiculous stats/streak, given the right circumstances anyone can twist/turn a stat in their argumentative favor.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby RushDelivery on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:01 am

^ I agree that stats lie, I just posted them to prompt some discussion on the topic.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby karacha on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:06 am

With those minutes Luke is getting, Chris Mihm would produce more. I'm dead serious.
That is very worrying.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby borri on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:10 pm

RushDelivery wrote:^ I agree that stats lie, I just posted them to prompt some discussion on the topic.


I'll take a shot. Which Laker ALWAYS, ALWAYS plays with the firs unit?

Then ask yourself why PJ never exposes this player with some or all of our bench players on the floor?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby The Rock on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:25 pm

Did you guys see CJ Miles and Ronnie brewer REPEATEDLY blindside and give a hard double team to Gasol in the post, to start the halves? That's luke's man, they leave him open and start roaming. They would think twice of roaming, if Vlad was on the floor.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby gcclaker on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:44 pm

If Walton's IQ can only compensate for his lack of speed, hops or outside touch...then he'd be fine. Oh wait... LOL! The original template of Radmanovic, Ariza...then Walton was fine. The Radmanovic trade was a way to prepare more $ for this offseason.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby borri on Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:16 pm

The Rock wrote:Did you guys see CJ Miles and Ronnie brewer REPEATEDLY blindside and give a hard double team to Gasol in the post, to start the halves? That's luke's man, they leave him open and start roaming. They would think twice of roaming, if Vlad was on the floor.


I've been preaching this ever since Luke started at game 21 of the season. There will be games that Pau will be taken out of. Teams have wised up...or just better coaching....as CLE and Utah have taken Pau out of the game with their roaming. CLE it was Lebron...and as u said it was Miles/Brewer.

This will be an issue come playoff time....as Drew is also a post player....now you have 2 defenders in the post + roamer to clog the paint. Which brings up another issue....3 pt shooting to force them to abort the roamer defense.

YOU KNOW...teams will be watching tapes from last year's finals....how LO's defender just ignored him and cheated to roam. It effectively shut down kobe. Of course it wouldn't matter if Pau and Drew can dominate the paint. Pick you poison....shut Kobe down or let the inside be dominated. Of course, i would prefer to have better spacing so that neither option is available.

We'll see.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:53 pm

gcclaker wrote:If Walton's IQ can only compensate for his lack of speed, hops or outside touch...then he'd be fine. Oh wait... LOL! The original template of Radmanovic, Ariza...then Walton was fine. The Radmanovic trade was a way to prepare more $ for this offseason.


It would be a colossal shame if it were the reason we are denied a championship.

If Luke stays the starter past the near term...his defenders are going to continue to roam, pack the paint and give hard doubles to whoever is handling the rock. We saw this last night...Luke played for the pass and left wide open....and all Luke had to show for it was 2 pts and bunch of forced passes to covered teammates.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:25 pm

Luke saw his final minutes of the game at a 69 draw in the 3rd quarter with about 5 minutes left to play in the period.

The Jazz had their largest lead (9) in the 4th quarter....a period that didn't see Luke on the floor at all.

This also explains how Luke was in the positive when it comes to the +/- stat.

It also completely nullifies the concept that double teams that came from Luke's defender led to the Lakers deficit. Again, the 4th saw LA's largest deficit and Luke was long gone by that time.

This loss is heavily attributed to the lack of defense the Lakers put forth. Great D normally comes from effort and energy, which clearly was absent by a tired group.

This team needs a break and hopefully come Tuesday our squad is ready to go for the stretch run. Luke provides further depth to this team and it should show once the playoffs start.

Trevor (the guy that the defenders left open in the 4th, which led to a 9 point deficit) has said that he prefers to come off the bench. Who knows if Morrison can break the starting lineup this season, but its a possibility.

But till then, the only possibility of a starting lineup that doesn't have Luke in it is one that has a clearly exhausted and banged up Kobe that plays the 3 with Sasha and Fish in the backcourt. Fisher and Brown then become subsequent backups for our guard rotation.

Frankly, I don't mind that type of rotation, but that really places alot of burden on our star player and our go-to guy in the 4th. Kobe needs a hint of fresh legs going into the postseason, so Luke starts and provides spot minutes for our real starting lineup (the one you primarily see in the 4th quarters of close games).

Looking at our record, I don't know how anybody can definitively label Luke as an absolute deterrent for this team. He barely gets minutes to even support such a proclamation.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Bynum&Gasol on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:40 pm

karacha wrote:With those minutes Luke is getting, Chris Mihm would produce more. I'm dead serious.
That is very worrying.


I know that I'll get flamed for this by Luke-sycophants, but I can't stand it when Walton is out there. He's
vommit-inducingly bad. His face is symbolic to everything I consider repulsive. Yea, I know that's extreme
and all, but whatever, it's just how I feel. That look he has at all times makes me speculate that he doesn't
quite know why he's starting either. He knows he sucks, he has to. He can't jump, shoot, rebound, or even
pass with efficiency. Whenever he does something productive, I almost have to pinch myself. The guy
is a horrible basketball player who would get dusted on defense by most D-league guards and forwards.
Last night, he did absolutely nothing to help our team. He's the benefactor of a great starting line-up.
I give props to Kobe for being able to carry Walton's dead weight. To say that he can pass or initiate
the triangle is an obvious cop-out for his sake. Anyone with eyes, ears, legs, and arms that all work could
initiate the triangle. Chimps can pass a basketball around. Just because he's Luke Walton, we're supposed
to ingratiate him for being able to "initiate the offense". For now Walton is safe, but whenever Phil retires
I am willing to bet whoever replaces him will inact "Get rid of Walton" as action item #1. He's not worth $4 mil
a season. He's not even worth 1 million a season.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:57 pm

What Vashashi misses out in his analysis of Luke (and his very misleading plus-minus) are the numerous opportunities the starting unit had in the third quarter to stretch the lead and couldn't because of his bungling and ineffectual play. That's the opportunity cost of playing him...you have no data how much better it could have been either with the perimeter spacer in their or a decent defender. As a result the Lakers basically traded baskets during Luke's third quarter stint and scored something like 6 pts.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby akina on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:01 pm

Bynum&Gasol wrote:
karacha wrote:With those minutes Luke is getting, Chris Mihm would produce more. I'm dead serious.
That is very worrying.


I know that I'll get flamed for this by Luke-sycophants, but I can't stand it when Walton is out there. He's
vommit-inducingly bad. His face is symbolic to everything I consider repulsive. Yea, I know that's extreme
and all, but whatever, it's just how I feel. That look he has at all times makes me speculate that he doesn't
quite know why he's starting either. He knows he sucks, he has to. He can't jump, shoot, rebound, or even
pass with efficiency. Whenever he does something productive, I almost have to pinch myself. The guy
is a horrible basketball player who would get dusted on defense by most D-league guards and forwards.
Last night, he did absolutely nothing to help our team. He's the benefactor of a great starting line-up.
I give props to Kobe for being able to carry Walton's dead weight. To say that he can pass or initiate
the triangle is an obvious cop-out for his sake. Anyone with eyes, ears, legs, and arms that all work could
initiate the triangle. Chimps can pass a basketball around. Just because he's Luke Walton, we're supposed
to ingratiate him for being able to "initiate the offense". For now Walton is safe, but whenever Phil retires
I am willing to bet whoever replaces him will inact "Get rid of Walton" as action item #1. He's not worth $4 mil
a season. He's not even worth 1 million a season.


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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:06 pm

kray28 wrote:What Vashashi misses out in his analysis of Luke (and his very misleading plus-minus) are the numerous opportunities the starting unit had in the third quarter to stretch the lead and couldn't because of his bungling and ineffectual play. That's the opportunity cost of playing him...you have no data how much better it could have been either with the perimeter spacer in their or a decent defender. As a result the Lakers basically traded baskets during Luke's third quarter stint and scored something like 6 pts.


What's misleading about the +/-, kray?

When Luke was on the floor, the Lakers as a team were in the positive.

What's misleading is the notion that Luke with ONLY 17 minutes of play somehow dug us into a hole. We were in the positive when Luke was out there. We were in a deficit, once Luke left with 5 minutes left in the 3rd and an even ballgame.

In the 4th, the lead swelled to 9. Phil sacrificed defense to get quick buckets and subbed Trevor for Sasha (our spacer and 3 point threat).

The deficit was more manageable (4) when Phil decided to go back to Trevor (for defensive stops) and unfortunately we couldn't get the win.

Luke wasn't even part of the equation. So to mislead folks into thinking the Lakers surrendered the 2nd half of this game because of Luke and his inability to space the game for our interior is utterly false....and misleading.

In the 1st half, where Luke's bulk of playing time came, the Lakers went into the half with a 2 point lead (which would've been 4, if it weren't for the refs calling a silly touch foul on Sasha with 4 seconds remaining).

Did I get everything, or did I miss something?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby khmrP on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:09 pm

Vash...so can you honestly say we would've stood a better chance of winning had Luke been in the game longer, especially in the last 5mins or so?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:21 pm

Not saying that at all, khmrP.

What I am saying is that Luke didn't cost us this game.

We had a better chance of winning if this game wasn't on the tail end of a back to back.

Our guys were tired and without Luke on this team, more minutes would have to be played by Trevor and Kobe at the 3.

Vlad is history and its needless to keep bringing him up NOW, but if he were still here, its proven that a 5 man lineup that included Luke with a front court of any 2 of LO, Drew or Pau was better and yielded more wins than a 5 man lineup that had Vlad in it.

Vlad is a hair better than Luke in individual defense, but I can't say that with conviction when it comes to team defense. Lets call it a wash.

However there is a reason he was dubbed a Space Cadet on offense. Vlad even admitted that he wasn't fond of the triangle....possibly cause he didn't fully grasp it and realize how to make it work to his advantage.

So the bottomline is that the trade is done, and unless there's a touch of magic still left in that wand, Luke and his bloated contract still remain here. Its really pointless to harp on his deficiencies when he doesn't even receive much playing time. What Luke does provide us is depth and spot minutes for our real and most effective starting lineup (which is the lineup you normally see at the end in close games).

Until we find a suitor for his contract, Luke is a Laker and I appreciate the depth he provides us.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:22 pm

What's misleading is the notion that Luke with ONLY 17 minutes of play somehow dug us into a hole.


This is the same song and dance done by knm11. There was no hole dug...just as there was no hill climbed. Luke is gumming up the works...sure the Lakers can still score, but rather than aiding them, he's part of the problem defensively, and he's also now making bad decisions on offense. The reason was explained as well.....his defender is totally playing off of him and taking away the pass....daring him to shoot....but he won't because even he knows he can't.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:23 pm

Same song and dance indeed.

Agree to disagree, kray.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:24 pm

What I am saying is that Luke didn't cost us this game.


No one said Luke "cost us the game"....he just played a rather noticeable role in it. I mean, can you really deny the obvious this much?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby borri on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:25 pm

Vash - you are SOOOO OFF with the +/- stats its not funny.

Milsap was not very good last night....his +/- was +15. Deron Williams killed us. Yet his +/- is +5.
CLE game...Luke did squat...yet his +/- was +13....LO was INCREDIBLE. He was the reason we won....yet his +/- was +9.

I could go on and on and on. The +/- stats is by far the WORST stat to look at. People who DON'T watch games look at that number and tell themselves...wow. When and IF you watch the game....you know how completely misleading it is.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby kray28 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:26 pm

khmrP wrote:Vash...so can you honestly say we would've stood a better chance of winning had Luke been in the game longer, especially in the last 5mins or so?


Someone else (Rush Delivery) pointed out that Luke played less than 20 minutes...that's why we lost. LOL.

Next time Phil will remember to keep Luke in there just a few minutes longer and it will be all good.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby khmrP on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:29 pm

^^I pointed that out in the WMC thread....but it is an incredible stat/fact though as some members on here keep posting, we are 12-0 thus far when Luke plays 20mpg+ but I register that stat in the same line as that Hollinger guys point differential stat that ranks this Laker team 3rd in the league. :man10:
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Grimjay on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:31 pm

+/- stat is the most illusionistic stat ever, pau (-3), farmar (-3) and josh (-6) were 3 the worst +/- stat last nite game but they played OK to me.
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