Luke Walton: Legendary "Appreciation" Thread

Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby RushDelivery on Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:12 pm

Great points Vasashi, I was going to write a post saying nearly the same exact things you did.

I can understand why fans can't stand Walton, but to hate him is IMO going too far. He's a serviceable player as Vasashi explained who does contribute some games, and he's definitely playing much better as of late (he had a +13 at Cleveland, the highest +/- of any player that game).

However, he doesn't have a high basketball IQ as some think, and that's where much of the hate comes from since he's supposed to be a smart player. He's definitely knowledgeable about the game, but he simply doesn't know how to apply what he knows far too often to say he has a high basketball IQ.

For example, Kobe has a high basketball IQ shown through his decisiveness when he plays. When he makes a move or has the ball he has a plan, he's usually not tentative since he has the ability to make quick decisions based on what's happening on the floor right at that moment. If Kobe drives he already knows exactly what he'll do depending on what the defense gives him, and it's that IQ that makes him so lethal and effective.

Walton lacks this ability and tends to over-think and thus react very slowly, and it drives the fans crazy. While he can make good passes, and while he does demonstrate an ability to make correct decisions at times, he does so typically at a snail's pace. He'll get the ball and usually do nothing for a few moments while he's trying to decide what to do. Sometimes he'll start backing his man down without any idea of whether he should shoot or pass, and thus he comes to rely on his teammates to bail him out on the offensive end if he gets himself into a poor position.

I'm not saying he doesn't have times where he does immediately react and make an excellent pass right away, but I am saying it's not what typically happens when he gets the ball. IMO that's why he makes so many unbelievable mistakes, he's over-thinking everything instead of playing within the flow of the game and demonstrating his purported high IQ.

I still believe everything you said Vasashi, I don't hate the guy or believe him to be useless garbage. I do understand why others hate him, and it's up to Luke to step it up and start reacting more quickly in everything he does and stop over-thinking his next move.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby Azndude2190 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:36 pm

Luke =CL punching bag
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby jbum on Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:46 pm

WeLoveLA wrote:This guy just does so many things that don't end up on the stat sheets. He runs the offense better than almost anyone on the team. Always a willing passer. Can hit the 3 when asked to. Plays solid team defense.

Luke's IQ is vastly underrated here, he really is a great fit in that starting lineup and I want to see him there for the rest of the season.


He might be ok as a sub but he is a liability on offense and defense... unless he's having a good night. He's slow... forcing others to always help on his man. He's slow, making him unable to create shots. His shot making is not consistent. He understands the offense but if he can't physically make plays happen... he's just a scarecrow out there. We don't want to play 4 on 5.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby TXLAKERFAN on Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:01 pm

knm131 wrote:We aren't great evaluators of talent -- but as a whole we're darn good fans.



Speaking on your self on that one.


Anyway. Luke is a below average player. He doesn't really do anything very well, and his decision making, which was his strong point is on the decline. The problem with Luke athleticism is that he doesn't have good lift when he jumps. Its more than evident on his turn around jump shots or when he is playing volleyball when trying to rebound. Luke shot well from 3 for half a year when we played with the new ball. He must have really worked that offseason with the new ball only for Stern to go back to using the old ball. His passing and running the offense is overrated. He looks better than Vlade out there because Vlade was a one dimensional player in our offense. Luke is given more responsibilites, and he continues to take to many gambles on his passes trying to thread the needle. His defense is the worst part of his game. He is awful man to man and he is slow in his rotations if you watch him as the ball is being passed around. He has a tendency to get lost on where he is supposed to rotate to and sometime just never makes the rotation. Most of the time when the team defense breaks down it can be credited to him or Fisher. The best part of his game is when the opposing coach attempts to hide a small PG on Luke in which he is then able to take advantage of that player in the post on the offensive end.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby eNlight on Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:06 pm

guys luke is turning into kwame brown. he can't even grab a rebound without letting it get out of his hands.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:26 pm

eNlight wrote:guys luke is turning into kwame brown. he can't even grab a rebound without letting it get out of his hands.


It's because he always jumps too soon, then he tries to smack the ball and it never works... frankly it's embarrassing. :disagree:
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:17 pm

TXLAKERFAN wrote:
knm131 wrote:We aren't great evaluators of talent -- but as a whole we're darn good fans.



Speaking on your self on that one.


Anyway. Luke is a below average player.


Really? So you think CL as a whole, are good evaluators of talent? Can you give me some examples of that?

Also, I think Luke is about average. But if you think he is below average, who would you consider the "average" player?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:19 pm

knm131 wrote:
TXLAKERFAN wrote:
knm131 wrote:We aren't great evaluators of talent -- but as a whole we're darn good fans.



Speaking on your self on that one.


Anyway. Luke is a below average player.


Really? So you think CL as a whole, are good evaluators of talent? Can you give me some examples of that?

Also, I think Luke is about average. But if you think he is below average, who would you consider the "average" player?


There's some dude named Bryant on the Lakers. He's pretty average right?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:58 pm

I'm still waiting for someone to find me the list of small forwards who have a better AST/TO ratio than Luke Walton. Luke is no LBJ, but he MIGHT have the best AST/TO ratio among all small forwards in the NBA and I can tell you, that that is why he starts. (Actually, I think Tayshaun Prince MIGHT have the same ratio as Luke).

Then, approximate what percentage that number is of all small forwards.

Then, pat yourself on the back for you have figured out the answer to that question that you just can't seem to figure out the answer to. That question being ... why Luke is starting instead of Vlad (for the record, Vlad had the worst success rate on assists on the entire team by a longshot).
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby DboyJerz on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:23 pm

Luke = Momentum Killer

Slowest fadeaway jumper ever!! Almost always gets blocked... Main argument.. NOT WORTH THE MONEY HE's GETTING.... Feel so relieved everytime he gets replaced w/Ariza.. Even if he's not asked to be a scorer.. His defense is atrocious!!! SPEED KILLS..... I think die-hard laker fans are having a hard time separating Luke Walton the person as opposed to the player.. Coz he does come off as a well-liked person... But we're talking about valuable $$$ here people!!!
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby TXLAKERFAN on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:29 pm

Why am I worried about an assist to turnover ratio from the 3 spot? :man3: I detailed on why I felt Luke was below average, care to argue against those points?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby theinsanity on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:34 pm

I understand where the Luke hate is coming from, but I don't think it's justified. He works well with the starters and understands his role. His defense has improved. He's a solid role player. Are we paying too much for what he does? Hell yes, but is he a useless turd that we absolutely have to get rid of? Far from it.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby WeLoveLA on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:51 pm

The proof is in the pudding. When Luke plays we are winning. We are beating the best teams in the league, executing in the clutch, and playing some good team defense.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:57 pm

When Luke plays more than 20 mins/game, Lakers are: 11-0

Interesting, but true.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby sugi942 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:06 pm

It's also possible that Luke is just taking up space which would account for why his +/- is good. He's on the floor with two all stars most of the time.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:09 pm

sugi942 wrote:It's also possible that Luke is just taking up space which would account for why his +/- is good. He's on the floor with two all stars most of the time.


Well, it's also possible that he isn't.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby khmrP on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:13 pm

that logic of Luke playing 20mpg+ going 11-0 is just ridiculous, do you even even read what you're typing khm13? Lets take Kobe or Pau out of the lineup and see if we go 11-0 :bang: ...its one thing to try and rationalize Luke's contribution but its another to just plain out say hes such the impact to cause this team to go 11-0 when playing 20mpg
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby sugi942 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:14 pm

True, but the fact is that he is. The facts while not totally conclusive would seem to indicate that he's being carried. Like I said before, we're stuck with Luke. I'm rooting for him because he has to succeed for the Lake show to succeed. If he cannot be traded, GO LUKE!
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:18 pm

khmrP wrote:that logic of Luke playing 20mpg+ going 11-0 is just ridiculous, do you even even read what you're typing khm13? Lets take Kobe or Pau out of the lineup and see if we go 11-0 :bang: ...its one thing to try and rationalize Luke's contribution but its another to just plain out say hes such the impact to cause this team to go 11-0 when playing 20mpg


What do you mean do I even read what I'm typing? I'm not rationalizing anything. It isn't an opinion. It's a fact. F-A-C-T.

The Lakers are 11-0 when Luke plays 20 mins or more in a game.
When Luke starts and plays less than 20 mins, the Lakers are 7-3.

There's nothing I can do about it. You can stomp your feet all you like, but it doesn't change the fact.

Why do you take issue with people posting what are facts? I didn't even give my opinion about it -- just posted it.

Let's suppose for a moment that the the rationale holds true. That whenever Luke plays 20 or more minutes, the Lakers never lose. Would you still not want him to play?
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby khmrP on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:19 pm

hell no!.....by that FACT alone then he's purely under paid and is certainly more important then Kobe/Pau since when they have played we lost FACT! Arent u also the one who started that record thread with Luke in the starting lineup? Well dam if we gona play by your FACT then we should've played him 40 mpg in the finals we would've won then for sure :jam2:
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby theinsanity on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:22 pm

I'd consider myself a Luke supporter but I don't like that stat either. Leads to all sorts of fallacious arguments. The Lakers are also undefeated when Kobe plays less than 35 minutes.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby odom1year on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:23 pm

Luke is an unselfish player.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:26 pm

odom1year wrote:Luke is an unselfish player.


Great contribution.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:28 pm

khmrP wrote:hell no!.....by that FACT alone then he's purely under paid and is certainly more important then Kobe/Pau since when they have played we lost FACT! Arent u also the one who started that record thread with Luke in the starting lineup? Well dam if we gona play by your FACT then we should've played him 40 mpg in the finals we would've won then for sure :jam2:


What are you talking about? The 11-0 stat when he plays more than 20 mins doesn't mean Luke is SOLELY responsible for those 11 wins.

Is that the conclusion you draw, when you see that fact? Yes or no.
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Re: I honestly don't get the Luke Walton hate...

Postby knm131 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:29 pm

theinsanity wrote:I'd consider myself a Luke supporter but I don't like that stat either. Leads to all sorts of fallacious arguments. The Lakers are also undefeated when Kobe plays less than 35 minutes.


But that can be explained. It's up to he who draws the conclusion, to draw the correct one.

The reason the Lakers are undefeated when Kobe plays less than 35 mins is due to blowout victories. So if you want to rest Kobe, blow out the opponent.

So let's try to explain the 11-0 number.
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