If T-Mac was better than Kobe...

If T-Mac was better than Kobe...

Postby Mookie on Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:53 pm

Don't you think he wouldve won at elast one game out of thos 19?
I mean Kobe couldve easily wn ga,es with that team, so thats not an excuse, Kobe is and will always be the best in the NBA.

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Kobe is simply the best EVER
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Postby lakers suck on Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:07 am

Kobe is better than which MJ? Jackson or Jordan? And at what? Ballin or raping?
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Postby LakerFanFor16Years on Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:13 am

lakers suck wrote:Kobe is better than which MJ? Jackson or Jordan? And at what? Ballin or raping?


Im sure u havent been following the nba lately. If u think lakers suck, go check out the standings here: http://www.nba.com/standings/by_conference.html

And to answer your question, Kobe is better than MICHAEL JORDAN IN BALLIN.
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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:34 am

why do you say that? (that Kobe is better than MJ) other than "oh hes this young and he has 3 rings."
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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:35 am

actually you know what...i dont want to get into it. you have right to your own opinion. If you think Kobe is BETTER than MJ than by all means...think that. For every 100 arguments you give me I can give you 200 counter arguments. For every 200 I give, Im sure you kobe lovers will give me 9 million counter arguments. So forget it.
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:58 am

Bulls Fan dont step away from a debate when they're talkin about ur MJ. I'm sure u can handle this one... But Tracy doesn't win games, the TEAM does. Like the sayin is, "There isn't an "I" in TEAM," so there ya go. Tracy is a good basketball player, but he plays for a team like how Kobe does. Kobe doesn't win games, the Lakers do. It's a team thang.
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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:16 am

LakersGyrl2003 wrote:Bulls Fan dont step away from a debate when they're talkin about ur MJ. I'm sure u can handle this one... But Tracy doesn't win games, the TEAM does. Like the sayin is, "There isn't an "I" in TEAM," so there ya go. Tracy is a good basketball player, but he plays for a team like how Kobe does. Kobe doesn't win games, the Lakers do. It's a team thang.


lol "my MJ." Now I have to debate it. lol. Its cool, Id rather not. Usually most people who say that Kobe is better than MJ clearly have no idea what theyre talking about. I dont want to debate it because Ive debated it to death and it gets old hearing the same old arguments. e.g. "Well it only took Kobe 2 years to get a ring...it took MJ 7...haha mj sucks!" or "Kobe avg 1.2 more assists per game at 24 so MJ SUCKS!!!!" Those are all weak arguments. MJ paved the way for guys like Kobe. Kobe says that himself. Kobe used to study MJ videos all the time. Im not saying Kobe is better or MJ Is better. Kobe hasnt hit his prime yet and is CLEARLY not 100%. Who knows what Kobe will be doing at 28. (Its almost scary).

As of right now though...any true basketball fan (not just Bulls fans) will say that Michael Jordan changed the game completely...especially defensively (contrary to popular belief...watch his games from 85-89) and he is the greatest player to ever play the game. He domiated nearly every aspect of the game. I mean cmon, the guy got Finals MVP, NBA MVP, All Star MVP, the scoring title, Defensive first team selsection, and NBA first team, all in the same year...TWICE... If thats not "BEST" I dont know what is and you should tell me and the rest of the NBA what is.

Before you say "So and SO is better than MJ." you should really watch a few of his games. Honestly, Bulls fan or not...youll be amazed that a human being can pull some of the moves he used to pull. The guy knew the game like NO other. I have hundreds of videos of MJs games. I have all of his 50 pt games. All 5- 60+ pt games. Those were amazing. Im sure youll come back at me with statistics and numbers because thats what matters to you. But there are things that jordan did that never got put in the "numbers" book. So go ahead and play the numbers game. It doesnt mean much in the greater scheme of things.
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Postby shaqpak34 on Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:16 am

I agree MJ was the best ever

some things that he did were just amazing...ppl can say kobe has the records for threes...well MJ made 9 or something in the play offs....iN THE PLAYOFFS


thats crazy

and then there was his clutchness...i have the "for the love of the game" book and it explains some of his moves....he was just plain crazy


there is a whole page in it filled with all of his lastt seconds hots

and also another whole page with all of his awards

i counted 47

he also had unbelievable determination

he had the flu or something once, and almost died from dehydration, and could barely walk, yet he went on to play, and dropped a 40 plus game

he IS the best ever, and i cant even believe that we are having this argument just because if u dont know this fact, u DEFINATELY havnt watched basketball


kobe is just a student of the game..he needs time to develop, its chilling to even just think of how good he can become, but at this moment, MJ is definately the best

HE SCORED 3000 POINTS INONE SEASON! 37.1 ppg average!!!!

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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:09 am

yeah his determination is great...which helped him yet kinda screwed him over towards the end of his career, e.g Wizards, Kwame, etc. I dont think thats his fault....Kwame and the rest of those wizards were a little bunch of punk sissies. But in the end, Jordan tried to hard to incorporate his work ethic with todays players...and sadly no one but Kobe can come close to Jordans work ethic. As Ive said before, nowadays its all about Dollars and Cents. Whos got the new shoes and 100 billion dollar contract and hoes, and cars, etc etc. In the end, he just didnt fit in todays league.

Oh and that game where he had the flu....he did have a flu...high temp...not about to die but pretty crappy playing condition...(most players today sit out for the smallest thing)...and he dropped 38 (not 40+) AND the winning shot...and then he fell into Scotties arms from exhaustion. Good game.

I cant wait to see Kobe from age 28-32. I guarantee he is going to do things nobody has done or seen. Hes a tremendous player with a lot of potential and skill...hes almost like the NEO of basketball...all he has to do is BELIEVE he is the ONE. Sometimes when I see Kobe on the court...it seems like he doesnt have the tenacity that Jordan had. I know getting charged with felony sexual assault and knee surgery doesnt help that at all, but I hope Kobe gets 10x better. In fact, (just so you know im not a Jordan "jock rider") I hope Kobe gets better than Jordan.

Hey when you have a song named after you "Wanna Be like Mike"...theres always going to be some kid that takes that [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] literally...e.g. Kobe.


expect Kobe to explode between 28-32. (Malone and shaq probably wont be around then...so its all kobe from there).
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Postby BDG on Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:12 am

It's pretty funny that it was about T-Mac and Kobe and now it's about MJ and Kobe :man10:
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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:36 am

lol isnt it always like that...im sorry man im a "bulls fan" i cant let that shiz slide. I mean you gotta do what you can do defend your fav player. ha!
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:40 pm

Well Bulls Fan has to defend Jordan, and it's all good.... All the players in the past paved the way for players that came later one, so I wouldn't say that they're better than someone else. Magic and Jordan played in the best era of basketball, without a doubt. Guards were actually guards, and not show getters. MJ was amazing and he's hit more clutch shots than anyone. That's why he's the greatest. To me, he's the most successful player in history because he's did so much for the game while playin that era. Dayam, how I miss the good ole days. Hell, he even manuvered in those short shorts, lol. But to say Kobe is better than him, right now, is completely blinded. Kobe came into the league at 18, and Jordan came when he was like 22-23. Jordan WAS the Bulls, and Kobe isn't the Lakers, but Kobe and Shaq are the Lakers. I honestly don't think Kobe will be known to be more successful than Jordan because he plays alongside Shaq, which is probably why Kobe wants out. The most dominant 2, have to be Kobe and Shaq though.... :o)

Oh yea, T-Mac shouldn't even be considered to be better than Kobe because he doesn't have a ring, and he can't make his teammates better. T-Mac can't play consistant D, because he's too offensive minded. Don't get me wrong he's a good player, he just simply isn't better than Kobe.
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Postby Bulls Fan on Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:06 pm

T Mac is a prime example of why a lot of old NBA fans dont watch basketball. There are almost NO consistent players left in the NBA. I can only think of one (of the new guys)...Kobe Bryant. Thats why I respect kobe so much...he brings an old school work ethic. He had hard time at first...but after a while, he came around. Like I said...its scary thinking about what Kobe is going to do at age 28.

Oh and yeah Jordan came at age 21. And youre right...he was the Bulls. He didnt get role players till about 87-89. Thats when Pippen and Paxon came. But they lost 3 in a row to the pistons. Then Phil came...they started winning. Man, imagine if they beat the pistons all three of those years....9 championships in 11 years....and one SIX peat. ohh well...

Honestly, THIS IS JUST my opnion...i know ill get crap for this...but...IF I WERE KOBE BRYANT...I would leave the lakers after this season. Ill tell you why...

1) He has nothing left to prove to the world...and especially the lakers...
2) Hes got 3 rings...with a 4th one on the way this year....(4 rings)
3) Hes still young

Hes already accomplished what hes needed to accomplish. The guys a hero so far. If i were kobe id think "Why not go somewhere else...and just start anew." Honestly, he can do it. He has nothing to lose...hes already got 3-4 rings anyway. Hes young...he can lead a team. Its awesome. He can actually "take a break" play for a crap team...and lead them to the finals...i believe that he can.

Like I said, thats just what I WOULD do if I was kobe. Obviously, none of you laker fans want him to leave....but if you put yourself in his shoes...its tempting. Realistically, he has nothing left to "do" in LA. Hes already a winner...
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Postby FabFourLakers on Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:25 pm

im sorry laker/kobe fans but MICHAEL JORDAN IS THA BEST ATHLETE EVER TO PLAY THA GAME...PERIOD.
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questioning T-Mac and his 'hunger'

Postby ZenMaster on Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:03 pm

Here is an interesting article on T-Mac....
if this has already been posted elsewhere in this forum, please accept my apologies:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... id=1683091

.....thoughts anyone???
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Postby BDG on Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:42 pm

FabFourLakers wrote:im sorry laker/kobe fans but MICHAEL JORDAN IS THA BEST ATHLETE EVER TO PLAY THA GAME...PERIOD.
I agree, but that still doesn't mean Kobe can't eventually take that title away from him. :man1:
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Re: questioning T-Mac and his 'hunger'

Postby BDG on Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:44 pm

ZenMaster wrote:Here is an interesting article on T-Mac....
if this has already been posted elsewhere in this forum, please accept my apologies:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... id=1683091

.....thoughts anyone???
Great article I agree with most of the points there. This ties in to what we're talking about. Kobe (last year) didn't let the Lakers lose 19 straight games without Shaq. And he didn't have ANYONE to support him. At least McGrady has Juwan Howard and Drew Gooden-- they're totally healthy.
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Re: If T-Mac was better than Kobe...

Postby ShackO on Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:37 pm

KOBE_is_better_than_MJ wrote:Don't you think he wouldve won at elast one game out of thos 19?
I mean Kobe couldve easily wn ga,es with that team, so thats not an excuse, Kobe is and will always be the best in the NBA.

Check out my nickname, that says it all.

Kobe is simply the best EVER
.......???

Last year around this time WITHOUT SHAQ = Kobe's team they were in 11th tied with Oakland............. Granted in the east they would of been maybe in the single digits..........????? nothing to brag on...............
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:27 am

Kobe's not gonna get the respect he deserves because he has it "easy" playin with superstars. It's not fair, becuz of anything that's the most troublesome because of their "ego's". And Bulls Fan, if the Bulls woulda kept MJ those 2 years, then the Bulls woulda won two more too, the ones that the Rockets re-peated. It's kinda scary to think about how much of an impact ONE player can make to one team. Without Kobe the Lakers are ok, because we have Shaq, GP and Malone, and without any of them we have others to fulfill their spots. That's why I think Kobe would want to leave the Lakers because he wants to be known as the BEST, even though he says that he wants to only play his best.
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Postby Bulls Fan on Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:02 am

haha yeah if he stayed that would have been nice....an eight peat. :jam2:

anyway, like i said, if i were kobe id leave this season. He has nothing left to prove. Go to a team like the Clippers, or say maybe daa bulls...(i wish)...and start a new. Hes 24-25 so say he goes to a team like the Clippers or Bulls...they unload whatever they have to get Kobe...they start a new. They get a center or PF that merely supplements Kobe (e.g. Luc Longley, Dennis Rodman, etc). Surround him with guys that will help him grow. Basically they would build a team around him. If they did that....I honestly think Kobe can avg 35ppg-42ppg per season. Hed have a championship ring with another team by 29.

He gets 2-3 rings with a new team....and retires at 36 with 5-7 rings. He retires with a...say 26-28ppg career avg. Goes down as the greatest player to ever play in the Post Jordan era....maybe even the best ever.

Wanna be LIKE MIKE...is changed to Wanna BE KOBE!
ha!
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:38 am

U'd really want Kobe to do this, right? I mean, ur a Bulls fan and MJ fan and all, but Kobe just MIGHT be better than MJ if he does so. Kobe can turn a team around, and I think that challange is what he wants. But u know all the great players stay with one team, and I'm not puttin down the rest, but it's kinda sorta true, in a way. Kobe needs another obstacle to overcome, and I think he would want that test. 1st he's testing the FA market, unless we do in fact trade for him before then. Kobe, kobe, kobe... If u does in fact leave, then a lot of Kobe fans who claim to be Lakers fans, will vanish off this site along with followin the Lakers. That'll test their loyalty towards this franchise... lol... I'm a true die hard fan, and I want what's best for Kobe, and if he wants to leave, then good luck to him. I'll follow him, but it has been and it is all about the Lakers!! :jam2:
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Postby Bulls Fan on Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:19 am

Im not like other Jordan fans or Kobe fans...im not hung up on "well my player HAS TO BE THE BEST ever and THATS IT!" Thats dumb. Yeah I do wish my team would be the best but that wont happen for another 10-20 years or maybe another 40 years who knows. It took the bUlls from 1966 to 1991 to win a championship. Maybe the bulls wont win until like 2045 or something who knows. Hopefully they win one more before I die lol.

Anyway, like i said i dont care about whos the best or whatever. Even if Kobe avg 50ppg for the rest of his career..no one is going to just forget Michael Jordan. So im not "worried" about that.

I only think Kobe should leave LA because in my opinion...hes done there. Hes accomlplished all hes needs to accomplish. Thats why Jordan retired the first time around (1993). He felt he took the team to its pinnacle....a 3peat...then he came back and 3peated again....(which i think will always be Jordans tell-tale of greatness). Kobe has not hit his prime yet...and as Jordan said...a GREAT guards pinnacle is probably around 29-32. Thats why Jordan retired at 32. Instead of retiring, (since Kobe is just 24 and has 3(4) rings) why not just do the same thing on another team and create your own dynasty.

Think about it..it would be Kobes tell-tale. Jordans was...3peating....retiring...coming back 2 years later....3peating again. Kobes could be...3peating witht he lakers (and Shaq...the monkey on his back i think)...then leaving the lakers (shocks everyone...everyone doubts him...etc etc "he cant do [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] without shaq)...hes goes to the Clippers...creates a new LA rivalry first of all....then wins 3 more with the Clippeers. Wow, i cant think of a better way to prove greatness. I dont think he should wait for Shaq to leave...especially since Shaq wants to play another 7 years. Kobe will be 31-32 years old. If he wants to start his own "dynasty"...the time is now.
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Postby Jamaican Lakerfan on Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:10 am

Kobe can be thought of as the best post-Jordan player in L.A. Why leave? Shaq has passed his peak of 2000 when he was absolutely dominant, and has shown a willingness to defer his demand for the ball ith Malone and Payton around.

He will get the wing position in the triangle next year (Jordan's spot), and provided he shoots near 50%, will get the ball enough to average 30 points or more a game. And he will get to do this on a team which has a dominant center (which will reduce the beating he has to take in scoring and defence).

The league is taller and stronger than in Jordan's day; why take the extra beating on a longer andskinnier frame than Mike's. He had a taste last year during which he was Jordanesque but to do that for 82 games with the Grizzlies, Clippers, Bulls etc would shorten his career. He wouldn't become Jordan, he would be Allen Iverson - a 50 point scorer, with a low shooting %, suffering and playing through numerous injuries.

Right now he is the Lakers' crown prince; next year he would be king. Why go and suffer in a league with more divisions, more teams, bigger forwards and guards than in Jordan's day?

Insane...unless his ego is beyond measure, and his talents peerless. If he can go to a bad team and win, in my book he would be the greatest ever to play the game - truly without peer. Perhaps it is thoughts like these that dance in his mind. But I doubt it. Life has humbled him of late, he loves L.A., and if he can surpass 6 rings, he will be the best player since Mike... maybe even better.
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Postby Bulls Fan on Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:54 pm

I agree with your for the most part. Like I said, I was just putting myself in the mindset of Kobe. As I said, it would be his tell-tale. By Jordan 3peating...leaving...coming back and 3peating....he proved that Pippen couldnt win without him. Personally I think Jordan could have won without Pippen. He wouldnt have 3peated twice but he would have gotten 2-3 easily. Thats why I cant buy the fact that Kobe would be considered the BEST ever if he had say...7 rings. One could always argue that he had Shaq...Kobe developed quicker being around so many developed athletes. But whatever...in the end, everyone is "great" in their own way. I just dont think it would fair to well with the books because "best" usually means "most effective." I dont think Kobe has reached that "most effective" stage YET. Not saying he wont, but he hasnt yet (which is scary). Anyway, Ill put this argument to bed...we'll see when Kobe retires.

My prediction

Kobe Bryant
27.6ppg career avg
higher assist avg than mj
maybe higher or same rebound avg
3-4 MVPs
1-2 Finals MVPs
5-7 scoring titles
6-8 rings.

p.s. I think Kobe is 100x better than AI. Kobe knows the game like no other in this league right now. I still think Kobe would blossom on a new team with SUPPLEMENTAL players. I think it would only take him 2-3 years to get a ring. This is just my opinion though...Im probably wrong, but who knows.
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