Official LBJ thread: Game winner: ESPN gonna rock it

^ Jordan only picks Kobe because he feels his legacy is more threatened by LeBron at the moment. Kobe never got as much love and never got consideration for possibly being better than Jordan. He was, at best, regarded to be in the ballpark of Jordan, the closest thing to Jordan since Jordan. Never talked about as being better. And the stats bear that out as well. Kobe will not win another MVP, will not increase his scoring average, FG%, and probably won't win another championship.

But now people are saying LeBron could possibly be the best ever. And his stats have a chance of eclipsing Jordan's. He only trails in the championship department but he has time to close in on that. I think it's unfair to players, current and former, to compare them to each other. Let time pass and then we'll judge when their careers are all said and done.

But I take no stock in what Jordan says. He's a miserable SOB who thinks he's the greatest ever, wants everyone to also think he's the greatest ever and doesn't want to entertain the idea that someone could be close to him or even better.

LeBron is going to win his 4th MVP in 5 years. I wouldn't blame MJ for feeling threatened

I don't think LeBron will surpass him as the GOAT but he sure has a better chance to do it than anyone else up to this point.

I'm browsing other forums and I'm shocked **sarcasm** at all of this hate and animosity towards Micheal Jordan because how dare he question LeBron Jame's game? Didn't he do the same to Kobe when Kobe said he think the players of today's "Redeem Team" could be the Dream Team? Everyone applauded and clapped it up when he said that. Even on some forums said "MJ got in his behind".

What happened to "No matter what he does he'll never be better than MJ" talk? What happened to people arguing like a pack of wolves with a foaming mouth any time someone dare compare any other player to Micheal Jordan? I can see why some Kobe fans are salty with the media because all of the years Kobe was bashed and made sure to stay in his lane when compared to yester year's golden boy, people, even older players who often placed MJ on a pedestal are turning out MJ and discredting his titles talking about how great Pippen was. I've even seen people discredit older players like Magic and a few others in defense of LeBron. LeBron's basically putting on the same show other dominant players have done which is go on these streaks and hit up records, his athleticism makes it even more exciting. All of the rap songs out there referencing MJ superior to a lesser Pippen now Pippen and MJ's supporting cast are all of sudden a golden standard as into LBJ is all of a sudden better? Didn't Kobe fans used to do that in the past and if I'm not mistaking Kobe fans were basically written off as insane, delusional nutcases that didn't know any better for even thinking so? One thing MJ and LeBron definitely have in common is the ever building "untouchable status" created by the media and fans. Not even the late great MJ dare question LeBron.

I want to see LeBron in person, he's like the only superstar after Kobe retires I can see in person with similar abilities, since I never could see Kobe, but I just wanted to address all of this sudden flip flopping.

First off, I don't want to try and discredit the guy, he's a great player, an all-time great already. That said, I think a lot needs to be said about the competition these guys played against, and the rules they played under. Jordan's comments about LeBron being able to play in his era, but not being as successful in his era, and rolling his eyes and almost getting mad when LeBron was compared to Oscar Robertson, got me thinking. Again, I think LeBron is great, I'm not taking away from his ring, a ring is a ring, but when you start saying LeBron is getting close to Jordan, that he could pass him someday, that he's better than Kobe even, I have to shake my head and say something. I think LeBron would still be great in the 80's and 90's NBA, but not THIS great, not this dominant, and a lot of that has to do with competition.

I think competition matters, and who has LeBron beat that's as impressive as anyone MJ and Kobe beat? Some teams he's been through in the East in his runs to the Finals wouldn't have even made the playoffs if this were the era Jordan played in, or even the early 2000's teams Kobe and Shaq went through. Not talking about record, talking about talent, a lot of these teams are crap compared to the all time great teams Jordan went through and the teams filled with quality vets that gave Kobe and Shaq all they could handle 2000-2002. Competition matters, which is why I'd say without hesitation that Kobe's 2010 title is better than his 2009 title. 2009 we didn't play a ton of great teams, we played Utah, we played a way undermanned Houston team that took us to 7 games, and we played Denver, then we beat a Magic team that really wasn't that impressive in the Finals. 2010, we beat the up and coming Thunder, a bit better Jazz team, and a really good Phoenix team, and then of course got our revenge on a great Boston team. The early 2000's though, no comparison, ridiculously tough veteran teams that were smart, played ball the right way, played defense, that was oldschool stuff, teams like Portland, Sacremento, San Antonio, those teams blow away any team LeBron has faced, maybe ever. And this is when defense was allowed, hand checking was still allowed, big men still ruled the game and they were skilled and battled.

Then you have Jordan, the guy faced Bird's Celtics teams, Isiah's Pistons, Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Chuck's Suns, Payton's Sonics, Stockton and Malone's Jazz, some of the best Knicks teams over year after year, some of the best Pacers teams ever, the competition blows away anything LeBron has faced. These are all time greats, this is when defense was played and allowed and could be fierce, when players were men and they were smart, at the peak of the league and fundamental greats IMO.

Now we come to LeBron, and again, I'm not trying to take away from the guy, you can only play who you play, but I'm pointing out why I think it's ridiculous to say he's reaching Jordan, or even Kobe. Who has LeBron had to play? What defense is really played in this league anymore? HIs scoring stretch with ridiculous shooting percentages was super impressive, but do you honestly think this happens in the 80's against real defense, or even the 90's or early 2000's when handchecking was still allowed? The league is garbage overall right now, a handful of actual title contenders at BEST, a bunch of nobody players on crap teams that literally aren't allowed to touch anyone on the perimeter or bang in the post on D, especially on guys like LeBron. So if you have that combo, of course you're going to have a guy as good as LeBron, a guy so much more talented than all but a few, head and shoulders above the majority of garbage nobodies in the NBA today, young players with games based on nothing but athleticism and jacking up shots, lacking so much fundamentals and defense like Jordan himself said.

Back to my original LeBron question, who has he really played. He got through a good Detroit team in 2007, no question, he beat a really tough Thunder team in the Finals last season, he beat a good Celtics team in 2011 to get to the Finals. Other than that he's played laughable competition for the most part, a lot of young teams full of a lot of real nobodies and a few borderline all-stars. Last season, The 76ers, please that team never had a shot, another team that doesn't even make the playoffs in the good days of the NBA. Having avoided the Bulls dude to Rose's injury, the Pacers, young team with zero real stars, got pushed to the edge by them, wow so impressive. An old as hell Celtics team with some bad injuries, got pushed to 7. Year before that they lose to a Mavs team with 2 hall of famers, one is Dirk, the other was old as hell and way past his prime in Kidd. These are not impressive teams. These are not comparable to what Jordan had to go through, what Kobe played through and freaking dominated putting up 40 point games against the Queens, tearing up some of the best Spurs teams.

I realize this all can make me come off as a hater, though I'm really not anymore, LeBron is great, he is, his shot has dramatically improved, he's playing in the post, he plays D now, he's a leader, always a great passer, and he got a ring, I can't say anything about the man's actual game, only his competition. That's all I'm saying, before everyone goes nuts and starts saying LeBron and MJ can start to be compared now, before you start saying LeBron is better than Kobe now than Kobe was in his prime, think about the competition these guys played against, who did what against who (whom?). LeBron's competition doesn't stack up right now, maybe when these teams and players grow up and turn into stars and all time greats, but so far nope, when he did face a lot of the all-time greats of Kobe's era in the playoffs, he'd lose (though I suppose that part is not unlike early Jordan). Jordan played in the league at it's peak. Kobe played and won when there were still teams full of men that knew how to play the game the right way and real defense was still allowed. That to me says more than a nice streak of scoring at a high shooting percentage, or how many stats a guy averages vs another guys stats, or even how many media voted on MVP's someone has. Finals MVP's are one thing, regular season, meh. That's all I wanted to say, getting kind of tired of the hype machine and LEBRONSPN right now brushing aside the greatness of Jordan even while celebrating him nonstop for his birthday, and getting tired of Kobe being disrespected at the expense of elevating LeBron, because you can call me wrong, but I am not going to say LeBron is on Kobe's level, or that he's better, not yet, sorry.

^
Excellent post.

Yeah, the competition is really sad nowadays... Out of 30 teams, only 2-3 teams are legitimate and the rest are fillers...

Weezy post explained it well ... it is a " what have you have done for me lately" world we're living in ... blame it on internet , especially the social networks and their "experts" ... plus the NBA/Nike and others companies have to sell the Lebron brand , this is another huge reason these comparaisons are made ...

Kobe couldn't be promoted THAT much after his "rape" case

I feel that. Watching the all-star game today, I was trying to figure out why so many of these guys are all-stars. Ten years ago, and even more so twenty years ago, you could tell by thir play that the guys in the all-star game were the best of the best, top professional basketball players in the world. The top of their craft. They had incredible moves, or made unbelievable passes, or were worlds ahead of the competition in some clearly recognizable way.

I just didn't see that much today. LeBron and Wade, Kobe and Melo had superior moves. CP3 had superior hustle. And then a lot of mediocrity. Dwight was lethargic, Timmy was slow (but he's old so it's understandable), bosh was schooled over and over, Tony missed most of his shots, and it goes on and on. Maybe most of these guys are the superior talent, but they play like they don't care.

As for competition, the nba definitely doesn't have any great teams. Miami is the best superteam, and they run the table in the east because they have arguably the top three players in the east. There's no talent left after them. Melo is great, but it remains to be seen if he has enough supporting cast to make noise. As for the west, The Thunder without Harden are significantly less formidable. The Spurs core just gets older and older. The Clipps still have no inside presence. Miami is the best team in the league by far, but they wouldn't beat the 02 Lakers, or the 03 Spurs, or the 04 Pistons. Never mind the 98 Bulls or the 98 Jazz, or the 94 Rockets. All of those teams would school the soft-in-the-middle Heat, and the medium-soft-in-the-middle Thunder. Not to mention that Phil, Riles, Sloan, and Pop would mop the floor with Spoals and the young guard of clueless coaches.

wcsoldier81 wrote:Weezy post explained it well ... it is a " what have you have done for me lately" world we're living in ... blame it on internet , especially the social networks and their "experts" ... plus the NBA/Nike and others companies have to sell the Lebron brand , this is another huge reason these comparaisons are made ...

This so much. LeBron's on an unbelievable streak and people start saying he's as good as Jordan or better than Kobe or a "bigger, stronger Jordan" like Barkley said (he's a moron so whatever). NO ONE, for example, seems to remember LeBron's UTTER choke job in the 2011 finals, or his other choke jobs before with the Cavs. That NEVER comes up now, it's like that never happened and he's always been the best player in the league. Both the MJ and Kobe comparisons take a huge hit if you start remembering that. These are guys remembered for coming up big in the playoffs, being clutch, elevating their games and doing what they need to do to win. They never had choke jobs as bad or as long (4 straight finals' games, really LeBron?) as LeBron's had. Yet that's never brought up anymore.
The first decade of the 21st century undeniably belongs to Kobe. But you hardly see that ever being mentioned, how amazing a ten year run that was, consistent and extremely good basketball, breaking all kinds of records, winning 5 championships (2 different runs with completely different teams and against completely different competition), altering his game again and again, piling up accolades... It seems like the media doesn't remember any of that, all they know is Kobe is on the decline and it's never been clearer that LeBron is the best in the league, and it's not even close, so they say. Forget about Durant leading the league in scoring while putting up 50/40/90. That's nothing.

I do agree LeBron is the most productive player in the league right now (not my favorite player, not the most fun to watch, but the most effective/productive). His stats are ridiculous and he has improved a lot. He's finally taking full advantage of his superior athleticism, and putting it together with his improved skillset has made him very, very hard to contain. But it's not like "it's not even close", or like guys like Durant and CP3 and Kobe aren't even worthy of him right now. It's not like his game is perfect and he's got it all down and there's nothing other players do better than him. That's BS. It doesn't make me forget the playoffs in 2011, or 2010, or 2009. And it doesn't make him already better or as good as the best players ever.

The 2011 Finals is one hell of a choke job ... the biggest of any superstars in the league I've witnessed for the 18 years I've been watching the NBA ... the last two games against Boston in 2010 were bad too ... I disagree with 2009 though , he was a monster in the Magic series

What I remember about his 2009 Ecf was that the Magic shot lights out from the perimeter, especially Hedo and Rashard, while the zone turned LeBron into a chucker.

My favorite LeBron faux pas was the Olympics where he saluted the troops at every opportunity, and ended up leading the US to a bronze medal.

Everyone is encouraged by Espn to forget his failures. The way I see it, it's just his endorsers buying Espn off so that they only spout accolades over him. Just a way to raise stock in his brand. I suppose Kobe gets no similar love because most of his sales are overseas.

I just don't get the Lebron vs Kobe prime comparisons because there are barely any at all. Lebron has a championship caliber squad with 2 other stars in their prime. He rarely ever sees double teams any more so of course he'll be able to feast on the single coverage he gets every night.

On the flip side, prime Kobe had to do most of his damage against constant double and triple teams. The entire defense was geared toward stopping one man and still he almost always did what he wanted. Now I'm not saying teams don't have Lebron as the focal point to stop but how the hell could they implement any of their strategies with a prime Bosh and Wade also to be accounted for. And I say all this just add some perspective to the argument. Prime Kobe was a different kind of beast and Lebron is still a bit off from that level at this point in time. But he has a little bit of time on his side so he may have a chance to reach that level if he keeps improving how he has the past 2 years.

That's another good point. Prime LeBron has 2 great players next to him (mainly Wade of course), prime Kobe had nobody even close to that level and he still managed to make the playoffs in a tough as hell West those seasons. The only season they missed the playoffs was 04/05 when Kobe only played 66 games, missed tons of games to finish the season, and the team was on pace to make the playoffs before Rudy T quit and then Kobe went down for a ton of games by his standards. Kobe was a beast in his prime, I don't get discrediting that because LeBron put up more assists and rebounds on average on a better shooting percentage. LeBron should have a better percentage (especially at his size and speed with today's lack of defense allowed), he's not mainly a perimeter player anymore like Kobe has always been, and he gets more layups and dunks than Kobe ever did on average. LeBron's 3 point percentage is impressive though, not trying to take away from that or his game at all, just like nobody should be trying to take away from what Kobe has done.

Exactly and I'll even take it a step further. Lebron doesn't even have to guard the other teams best player for huge stretches either. That's manly Battier's job and Lebron might guard a Durant or Melo in crunch time or in little spurts. With the crappy team prime Kobe had, he had no choice but to guard the best player for longer stretches of the game. And after expending all that energy on D, he still had enough in him to beat constant double and triple teams.

But like you said, what Lebron is doing is amazing. His statistical dominance is at an all time level right now and he still has time to improve.

After watching ESPN today I am surprised no one is talking about the amazing LBJ led Miami "Harlem Shake" vid. I have only seen bits and pieces of it but according to some of the talking heads it shows how great LBJ is for allowing the team to do it. It also is the Heat telling everyone that they are better than everyone in the NBA.

If I saw these Lakers doing a video like that I'd honestly be embarrassed for them. Absolutely nothing wrong with them doing it, but it's not my thing and I prefer a more professional team atmosphere.

Weezy wrote:If I saw these Lakers doing a video like that I'd honestly be embarrassed for them. Absolutely nothing wrong with them doing it, but it's not my thing and I prefer a more professional team atmosphere.

I don't mind them doing it. Hell, I am not even hating on it. They like to have fun and that's what they do. Absolutely nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I only pointed it out because the talking heads made it sound like because of it Lebron is even a greater person. All I was thinking about was if it was OKC would the talking heads say KD was amazing for being in touch with the times? I already know how bad LA would be killed for it.

ESPN made LeBron a little cartoon, I think it's adorable **bats eyelashes** I wonder when LeBron wins his much deserved MVP will he bring his teammates up brcause Wade and Bosh have been smack dead right there contributing as well.

Funny video .. wrong pedobear though , should have been the Birdman not Wade ...

Let's put this thread back on track with the most IMPORTANT topic right now : Lebron warmup dunks !

Those warmup dunks are getting a lot of pub. I read somewhere that Magic is offering him 1 mill to enter the dunk contest. The jocking and begging of this fellow is at an all time level.

Yeah Magic really put himself out there. He said he'd put 1 million dollars down to see LeBron in the dunk contest and the money would go to the winner.

Offering a million bucks for dunks we see him do every game? I have to admit it'll be more interesting despite being repeated dunks because LeBron is a strong, muscular powerful athlete so his dunks will look even more spectacular than the others because he powers his dunks down. But he already said if he were to do it he wouldn't do any tricks, have and props or any of that.

Didnt think it was that serious.

therealdeal wrote:Yeah Magic really put himself out there. He said he'd put 1 million dollars down to see LeBron in the dunk contest and the money would go to the winner.

Wish a few more people would open their check book and really turn on the pressure cooker. Not just to see Bron choke on a national stage at an individual level, but to get some elite competition out there. Not the 9 fingered cup cake kid vs. an over the hill James Fight White competitions we've been stuck with lately.