Official LBJ thread: 82 games too much man

Re: Official LBJ thread: MVP Leader? 61 better than 81? WOW.

Postby charvin on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:44 pm

In some poll I saw, in terms of impressiveness (only these 3 options):
#1 Kobe's 81 point game
#2 LBJ's 61 point game
#3 Carmelo's 62 point game

Same opponent, same [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.], yet Carmelo's game was less impressive. Gotta love the media and ESPN.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:26 am

Don't like Lebron but Nique should calm down ... it was better before blah blah blah ... besides the usual terrible PNR defense from Al on 5-6 plays , Lebron made some tough shots ...

Scoring against a team which can "zone you up" is more diffcult than scoring against no zone + the hand check
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby abeer3 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:08 am

you couldn't have saved 5 of those points for the fun squad last night? c'mon, man.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Iceberg Slim on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:12 am

For those that think that 61 point game didn't put Lebron in the lead or at least even in the MVP race, you haven't been watching basketball or you're a hater. It's NOT that singular game that all of a sudden catapulted him to even, or a slight lead. It started right after Miami loss to OKC (in Miami) on 1/29. They both scored in the 30's, but Durant stole the show and embarassed Bron on his home turf, routinely hitting long range bombs over him. At the moment, it was clear to see Durant was the MVP. It ain't that clear anymore. 14 games have passed since then. Miami's lost 2 of them. And here's a recap of the big games.

2/5: 31, 12, and 8 in a win against the Clippers @ Staples.

2/12: 36, 13, and 9 against Golden State. Bron hits the game winning buzzer beater, on the road.

2/18: 42, 9, and 6 (16-23 fg) against Dallas in a road win.

2/20: OKC vs. Miami rematch: Bron scores the first 12 points of the game for Miami. Durant has 5 turnovers, a quiet 28 points and takes loss, at home. Bron goes 15-22 from the field for 33 and 7, in a win. Some would say it was even right there, at the least close.

Then...

3/3: 61 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists. 22-33 from the field. 8-10 from three.

They are ranked #1 and #2 in PER, Durant leads. Its easily possible that James is officially leading this MVP race, by a hair. The opposite can be said for KD as well. But to say Lebron is leading isn't an egregious statement. And to say it's simply because of the 61 point outburst means you haven't been paying attention.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:21 am

No, but leading your team to the top of a much more competitive Western Conference with the same record, despite your 2nd best player being out does. For me, that puts a HUGE gap between the two.

I don't think anyone is hating on Lebron, but the guy has a stacked team. Stats aside, he still has two all stars on his team.

Take KD off OKC, with Westbrook out, they'll be struggling to make the playoffs guaranteed. But they are FIRST. Take Lebron off the Heat and they'll probably be a Top 4 seed in the East.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:25 am

Iceberg Slim wrote:For those that think that 61 point game didn't put Lebron in the lead or at least even in the MVP race, you haven't been watching basketball or you're a hater. It's NOT that singular game that all of a sudden catapulted him to even, or a slight lead.

And to say it's simply because of the 61 point outburst means you haven't been paying attention.


I think you interpreted some of the posts the wrong way. I know I was commenting on ESPN making it a point that, that single game vaulted Lebron ahead of KD.

They didn't mention any of those things you mentioned in your post, they only talked about that game and how that game makes Lebron MVP.

And that's not right.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby D.B. Cooper on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:33 am

lakerfan2 wrote:No, but leading your team to the top of a much more competitive Western Conference with the same record, despite your 2nd best player being out does. For me, that puts a HUGE gap between the two.

I don't think anyone is hating on Lebron, but the guy has a stacked team. Stats aside, he still has two all stars on his team.

Take KD off OKC, with Westbrook out, they'll be struggling to make the playoffs guaranteed. But they are FIRST. Take Lebron off the Heat and they'll probably be a Top 4 seed in the East.

This right here.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Iceberg Slim on Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:56 am

lakerfan2 wrote:No, but leading your team to the top of a much more competitive Western Conference with the same record, despite your 2nd best player being out does. For me, that puts a HUGE gap between the two.

I don't think anyone is hating on Lebron, but the guy has a stacked team. Stats aside, he still has two all stars on his team.

Take KD off OKC, with Westbrook out, they'll be struggling to make the playoffs guaranteed. But they are FIRST. Take Lebron off the Heat and they'll probably be a Top 4 seed in the East.



Every MVP had essentially a stacked team en route to his award(s). Magic had two HOF's with them while he racked up MVP's. Larry Bird had the same. Michael had the same, particuarly with the second wave of championships.

Wade hasn't played that much at all this season, if you haven't noticed. He'll miss 2-4 games routinely, consecutively. Miami has played with one consistent all-star this season. Chris Bosh and Chris Bosh only. Wade is a shell of his former self.

You're argument sounds logical in the sense of the East being weak this year. There's no doubt about it. But the results are what they are, these are the two best players in the league, fighting for the top spot. Both respective teams are each top 5 in the league, they split 1-1 against each other, and are both top two in PER. Strength of schedule only means something in March Madness, not the NBA. Voters are holding that as critical criteria.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Iceberg Slim on Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
Iceberg Slim wrote:For those that think that 61 point game didn't put Lebron in the lead or at least even in the MVP race, you haven't been watching basketball or you're a hater. It's NOT that singular game that all of a sudden catapulted him to even, or a slight lead.

And to say it's simply because of the 61 point outburst means you haven't been paying attention.


I think you interpreted some of the posts the wrong way. I know I was commenting on ESPN making it a point that, that single game vaulted Lebron ahead of KD.

They didn't mention any of those things you mentioned in your post, they only talked about that game and how that game makes Lebron MVP.

And that's not right.


Doc,

Just like every single Lebron game, they chronicle all his moments and what it means in real time, week to week, day to day. So no, they didn't lay out the critical games up to this point. Its probably because they know (or assume) we've been following and they talk about his ad nauseum the very next morning on First Take, Numbers Never Lie, and Sportsnation. That's why I came off the way I did.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:No, but leading your team to the top of a much more competitive Western Conference with the same record, despite your 2nd best player being out does. For me, that puts a HUGE gap between the two.

I don't think anyone is hating on Lebron, but the guy has a stacked team. Stats aside, he still has two all stars on his team.

Take KD off OKC, with Westbrook out, they'll be struggling to make the playoffs guaranteed. But they are FIRST. Take Lebron off the Heat and they'll probably be a Top 4 seed in the East.



Every MVP had essentially a stacked team en route to his award(s). Magic had two HOF's with them while he racked up MVP's. Larry Bird had the same. Michael had the same, particuarly with the second wave of championships.

Wade hasn't played that much at all this season, if you haven't noticed. He'll miss 2-4 games routinely, consecutively. Miami has played with one consistent all-star this season. Chris Bosh and Chris Bosh only. Wade is a shell of his former self.

You're argument sounds logical in the sense of the East being weak this year. There's no doubt about it. But the results are what they are, these are the two best players in the league, fighting for the top spot. Both respective teams are each top 5 in the league, they split 1-1 against each other, and are both top two in PER. Strength of schedule only means something in March Madness, not the NBA. Voters are holding that as critical criteria.


I'm not making the case that Lebron on a stacked team isn't taking away from his great play, but in comparison to what Durant has done this year.

Wade has been on/off, but on/off was more than completely injured like Westbrook. Chris Bosh has been playing some of his most consistent ball this season, continuing his play from last year.

I think strength of schedule does come in to play. It's that apparent when it really comes down to it. Seeds 3-6 are at or barely over .500 with 7-8 under .500 making the playoffs. That's abysmal. Meanwhile, the West has two over .500 not making the playoffs. Memphis would be the 3rd seed in the East, but are sitting 9th in the West.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Iceberg Slim on Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:16 pm

Do you think (in the voters mind) the strength of schedule argument is going to make or break the MVP race? Because realistically speaking, Bron and Durant will probably just trade jabs for the rest of the year. Their play will probably settle out to be even. That's an assumption. If not, if Miami has a better overall record than OKC does, they will give to Lebron. Strength of schedule (in my opinion) will NOT be taken into account at all. Again, RPI like metrics only matter when trying to select seeds in a March Madness bracket. They will throw out the nuances of such data in the NBA.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:13 pm

In my opinion, yes I think it will (and should) play a part in the voters minds, albeit biased minds.

Why should Lebron get the edge when two of the teams in his conference are completely tanking? That's EIGHT given wins right there, with teams who aren't even trying to compete. You think that shouldn't (logically) come up in a discussion of a players teams records?

Lebron's team went 58-24 good for 2nd in the East but Durant went 56-26 for 1st in the West. Lebron wins because he had two more wins? Two more wins that most likely came from what they call "teams"?

You definitely take it into consideration.

Let's not forget Durant is going to win the scoring title, AGAIN.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Finwë on Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:18 pm

I think both LeBron and KD have had tremendous stretches of extremely high level play this season.
The reason why KD should be the clear cut #1 guy in the race is because his stretch was with an inferior supporting cast (Miami's full lineup > OKC's, plus Westbrook was out most of the season), against tougher opponents (the East is a JOKE) and it meant elevating OKC to the top seed in the league (until Westbrook's return and OKC's 3 game skid..).
LeBron's elite run has been impressive, but I don't think just quite as powerful as KD's, all things considered.

The 61 point game was sick, can't deny that.

Still, so far, KD's MVP.

EDIT: Also, despite LeBron being a "contender" in the DPOY race (don't really know why), it's been argued by many that KD has actually been a slightly superior defender this season
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Re: Official LBJ thread: Mask Man drops 61! Career High

Postby Battle Tested20 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:37 am

Doc Brown wrote:How is it a debate? :man3:

Kobe's 62 vs. the Mavs, I can see the debate, but scoring 20 more points in a game we need every point?

Not surprised ESPN. Not surprised at all. Always needing to prop the Kang's accomplishments up by knocking others down in the process.

Really? I'm not hating on Lebron at all because those numbers and FG% for 61 was incredible but Kobe scored that 62 in 3 quarters as I am sure you know Doc. That to me is more impressibe than 61 against the bobcats in 4 quarters compared to 62 against the Mavs.

Not really a close debate imo
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby wcsoldier81 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:48 am

Medias usually remember what has been done the latest i.e post All Star Break ... Lebron has an advantage here

Lebron has been balling and narrowing the gap lately but as of now it's still KD trophy ...

The unconditional Lebron love in the medias , the King self promotion and the Pacers current struggles don't help KD's case though
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Re: Official LBJ thread: Mask Man drops 61! Career High

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:22 am

Battle Tested20 wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:How is it a debate? :man3:

Kobe's 62 vs. the Mavs, I can see the debate, but scoring 20 more points in a game we need every point?

Not surprised ESPN. Not surprised at all. Always needing to prop the Kang's accomplishments up by knocking others down in the process.

Really? I'm not hating on Lebron at all because those numbers and FG% for 61 was incredible but Kobe scored that 62 in 3 quarters as I am sure you know Doc. That to me is more impressibe than 61 against the bobcats in 4 quarters compared to 62 against the Mavs.

Not really a close debate imo


I said I could SEE the debate. I don't think it's close, but I can see the argument being based on minutes played, Kobe (33) and Lebron (41) vs. Kobe doing it in 3 quarters and Lebron doing it in 4 quarters. I can also see, Kobe got hot from the free throw line vs. Lebron getting hot from 3.

Weak arguments, but I can see them being debated nonetheless. I think it would be crazy to pick Lebron's game over Kobe's, but you never know with some people.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Magic Skywalker on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:44 am

Let's not forget this "small" detail: Kobe 62 - 61 Mavs.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby BDG on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:57 pm

Wait how is there possibly be a debate over those performances?
- More points, three quarters (plus single-handedly outscored the opposition as a team)
- Less points, four quarters

I don't know how that could even be a possibility as a "debate" ...

I'm not taking anything away from LeBron's performance, but I don't know if there's more than two or three games you can compare Kobe's 62 in 3 with post-shot clock era. And one of those is Kobe's 81.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:04 pm

During that last half of the season, Kobe could have put together a string of 60-70 point games if Phil would have indulged him. He did 81 without really pushing it, except the last couple of minutes, of course.

LeBron's 61 was done on one of the best teams in the league, against one of the worst. Kobe's 81 was done on a first round fodder team, against a similarly-ranked team. And his 62 against Dallas was when Dallas was a good playoff team.

No comparison.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:19 pm

BDG wrote:Wait how is there possibly be a debate over those performances?
- More points, three quarters (plus single-handedly outscored the opposition as a team)
- Less points, four quarters

I don't know how that could even be a possibility as a "debate" ...

I'm not taking anything away from LeBron's performance, but I don't know if there's more than two or three games you can compare Kobe's 62 in 3 with post-shot clock era. And one of those is Kobe's 81.


Nobody is debating anything about that game.

I'll make it clear for the last time.

I made points of how SOME PEOPLE WOULD TRY TO JUSTIFY HOW that game is on Kobe level. With some of the people that lurk around here, I wouldn't put it past them and for the Kobe haters out there, I wouldn't put it past them either.

I KNOW it would be silly to debate those two games. I just acknowledged why SOME PEOPLE, would say those games could be compared.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Battle Tested20 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:55 pm

I understand, I just didn't know what you meant Doc at the time.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby Forward Three on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:53 pm

Since the 61 point game, Lebron has had one slightly below normal game followed by a bad game and he publicly said he felt fatigued after hitting his new career mark. Another thing that separates Lebron from the 'true scorers' in the league. Kobe's had clunkers after a great night too of course, but he's also had sustained 40+ outings, 50+ outings and multiple 60+ in a season. Kobe in his prime you knew he could literally win a game on his own, and you knew that any given night he could reach a historic mark. Lebron in his prime, you know he's going to hit around his averages any given night, and they will be fantastic by basketball standards, but you're genuinely surprised when he approaches 50 in a game. Lebron didn't look like he overexerted himself that night, but from the mouth of babes and all it was clearly abnormal for him.

Just as Kobe fans hate to admit the shortcomings in Kobe's game. Lebron fans tend to have the opinion that Lebron has no ceiling, that he 'could' go 40/20/20 or 80/10/10 or whatever. Lebron even seems to think it himself(which is fine of course to have that I guess) but everything we have seen about his game tells us that simply isn't true, he has his outliers, but he has his limits too, and they are by my estimation quite a bit lower than most people give him credit. Which is fine. He knows it, he plays to his limits, which is to say he plays to his averages most of the time, his averages are still extraordinary. But when Lebron fans are in disbelief over how some basketball fans aren't in love with his game, these are the types of things that we're talking about.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: 61! Nique not impressed.

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:27 am

Outside of his 24 points from behind the arc, there were 47 points in or near the paint. Even Shaq would get tired doing that. LeBron's kind of game is exhausting, lots of drives to the basket.

Pure shooters can get there faster and easier. Durant, Kobe, Curry can all sniff 60 points with less effort.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: MVP taken down a peg by Jersey sleeve?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:36 am

Here is the interesting thing (to me at least) on Feb 4, 2009 I created this thread asking if Lebron was going to go for 60 in response to Kobe's scoring record at MSG. It took 5 years for him to finally do it. Thought that was interesting.

OK, so now since his MVP lead jumping 61 against that awesome playoff team he has fallen back to normal regular LBJ greatness. Last night against one of the West best the Heat got destroyed by the old boys from San Antonio. LBJ's response to having a bad game? The Jersey with sleeves was the reason. Really? The Jersey caused him to not make shots. This is the MVP of the league? Really the idea that his great scoring night rocketed him ahead of KD was then and is now to me crazy. I believe KD is the frontrunner easily and should win it.
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Re: Official LBJ thread: MVP taken down a peg by Jersey sleeve?

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:53 am

^^^ He also partially blamed the mask he has to wear as well.

You know, the one he wore when he dropped 61.
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