rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:04 am

Barnstable wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Lowry all the way at 4?


That's what I said. And they have CP3 on the list.... but not Rondo? :freak2:

And Westbrook has been in and out of play this season too. :man10:
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:43 pm

Frank Dux wrote:The problem with CP3 is that he becomes the system, rather than playing in one a la Parker, Rondo. Those guys might not have put up the numbers, but they know how to win a championship. Something Chris Paul has never been close to achieving.


bro

he went from the HORNETS

to the CLIPPERS

lmao

and you're wondering why the teams focus on cp3 as the system? he teams he has been on are trash. had the lakers not been trade blocked, you would be whistling a very diff tune of cp3
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Doc Brown wrote:According to ESPN.......

1.) CP3
2.) Steph Curry
3.) Russ Westbrook
4.) Kyle Lowry
5.) D-Lillard
6.) John Wall
7.) Kyrie
8.) Isaiah Thomas
9.) Ty Lawson
10.) Mike Conley

Next 5 - Dragic, Kemba Walker, MCW, Rose, Bledsoe


conley getting major disrespect

just this past week
pts - 30, 31, 21
ast - 5, 7, 13
to - 4, 0, 2
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:48 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Barnstable wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Lowry all the way at 4?


That's what I said. And they have CP3 on the list.... but not Rondo? :freak2:

And Westbrook has been in and out of play this season too. :man10:


wb has played this season
rondo hasn't...he should rightfully be excluded from all pg rankings of this season.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:57 pm

lillard struggling
blazers dropping a lot more games in the L20

i figured out why i dislike lillard
he is a good scorer
he has high efficiency despite shooting terrible in fg% (like 42% or something)
which means he's making it up in free throws and 3s...

and this brings me to my next point
your point guard is responsible for moving the ball. while it's fantastic lillard is scoring efficiently, a pg's role is to distribute. if lillard were a SG, i would have no problem with his game. but he's not a SG. he's a scoring pg that ends up using more possessions to aid his scoring game rather than using his energy to get his teammates easy buckets. this is what i believe to be inefficient and why lillard won't be in my t5 until he gets a better jumper and/or shot selection. my conclusions are supported by the decline in assists per 40 from his rookie season despite having an overall better season.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:02 pm

Paul's teams have been trash right up until he was traded to the Clippers. Just because the franchise has been historically awful, doesn't mean they've been bad the last two years. They've been 2nd round exits two years running and I don't think this year will be much different even though they were favorites to win the West this season.

If you exclude Rondo, then you should also exclude Rose (albeit he wasn't in the top 10). Westbrook at 3 while missing most of the season is an insult to a player like Lillard who has been around and performed well for someone so young.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:46 pm

rose excluded himself so whatevs

wb will be back this season so i'm not sure why i would exclude him. he had played 25/31 games at the time of my post
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:47 pm

Barns and I were discussing the ESPN rankings posted by Doc Brown.

I don't remember what your picks were.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:52 pm

therealdeal wrote:Paul's teams have been trash right up until he was traded to the Clippers. Just because the franchise has been historically awful, doesn't mean they've been bad the last two years. They've been 2nd round exits two years running and I don't think this year will be much different even though they were favorites to win the West this season.


that's not the point
frank dux rightfully pointed out that every team cp3 is on, the system runs through cp3
which coincides exactly with what i said earlier about 'if you want to win a ring with cp3, he cannot be your #1 asset'.

what i'm trying to say is, both teams that have had cp3 did not have an existing foundation for him to grow on. cp3 was the starting point for both the clips and the hornets. the system ran through cp3 because they don't have a better alternative. they literally cannot function w/o him on the floor. the clips were 29-53 w/o cp3.
as long as cp3 continues to be the best asset on his team, they are very limited. this does not take away from the fact that he is still the best pg. if you put cp3 with popavich or spoelstra...game over.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:57 pm

halekulani wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Paul's teams have been trash right up until he was traded to the Clippers. Just because the franchise has been historically awful, doesn't mean they've been bad the last two years. They've been 2nd round exits two years running and I don't think this year will be much different even though they were favorites to win the West this season.


that's not the point
frank dux rightfully pointed out that every team cp3 is on, the system runs through cp3
which coincides exactly with what i said earlier about 'if you want to win a ring with cp3, he cannot be your #1 asset'.

what i'm trying to say is, both teams that have had cp3 did not have an existing foundation for him to grow on. cp3 was the starting point for both the clips and the hornets. the system ran through cp3 because they don't have a better alternative. they literally cannot function w/o him on the floor. the clips were 29-53 w/o cp3.
as long as cp3 continues to be the best asset on his team, they are very limited. this does not take away from the fact that he is still the best pg. if you put cp3 with popavich or spoelstra...game over.

I'm not sure I agree. I think a system offense would in many ways limit Paul and that could negatively affect his game. It's hard to say whether or not it would, but we just wouldn't know.

You could be 100% right or the fact that Paul's offenses run through him might be because that's how he's effective. If you take the ball out of his hands, is he a competent catch and shoot player? I honestly don't know, I haven't looked at the numbers.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:01 pm

If CP3 is on your team he will be the driver of what goes on with that team. Paying that much for him and putting him in a position where he isn't dominating the ball in pick and roll you end up with a 6' tall spot up shooter who can't play off the ball. In other words.... a younger more tanned Nash with us.

Paul is who he is.... just saying he "can't be your number one" and not realizing that he can't be a number two if the video game mentality personified. .... If I can get Paul.... and Love ....... and Noah... and LeBron....
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:25 pm

i think it's crazy you guys don't think paul can play off the ball. you never see it because he has always been the best player on his team. he has never had the luxury of having a player better than him, let alone being remotely close to his level. man if tp was never on the spurs u'd think he was the biggest ball hog of all time.

you can hate on the flopping all you want, but the ball iq is indisputable. he can pick and choose when to attack as well as any superstar in the league.

lol paul wasn't a #1 on team usa and they did just fine
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:33 am

^^Paul is a system player. Take him out of the system and his effectiveness drops pretty quickly. Pop and SA have written the book on taking he and Nash out of the playoffs.

As for Team USA….. they play vastly inferior competition with a freaking all star team of the best 12 players in the world. They should win by 40 every night.

A final note on assists. Individual assist statistics are somewhat overrated IMO. Team assists are much more indicative of a well functioning team. The Lakers average just 1.7 assists less a game than the Clippers. Biff is second on the Clips with 3.3 APG. The Lakers have 6 guys with more than 4 a game. When one player gets half the assists for an entire team then that team becomes easier to disrupt.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:11 am

Rooscooter wrote:^^Paul is a system player. Take him out of the system and his effectiveness drops pretty quickly. Pop and SA have written the book on taking he and Nash out of the playoffs.


if you take out any #1 player like KD or lebron, the rest of the team will have to pick up the slack. it doesn't just apply to paul. when you take out u KD, u have WB, and when you take out lbj you have wade/bosh. you take out paul, his #2 option doesn't create his own shot which leaves jamal crawford.

blake griffin doesn't create his own shot
david west doesn't create his own shot

if you haven't noticed the blatantly obvious trend, both of his teams' systems purely run on paul. championship teams have real systems, not player dependent ones. paul has never been on a team with a true system.

like i said, cp3 never had the luxury of having a teammate who can carry. he has always been the #1 asset on his team and that is why his teams don't succeed. he will win rings when he is on a team as a #2. in the nba right now, there is too much talent for a pg to win rings on his own as a #1.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:23 am

halekulani wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Paul is a system player. Take him out of the system and his effectiveness drops pretty quickly. Pop and SA have written the book on taking he and Nash out of the playoffs.


if you take out any #1 player like KD or lebron, the rest of the team will have to pick up the slack. it doesn't just apply to paul. when you take out u KD, u have WB, and when you take out lbj you have wade/bosh. you take out paul, his #2 option doesn't create his own shot which leaves jamal crawford.

blake griffin doesn't create his own shot
david west doesn't create his own shot

if you haven't noticed the blatantly obvious trend, both of his teams' systems purely run on paul. championship teams have real systems, not player dependent ones. paul has never been on a team with a true system.

like i said, cp3 never had the luxury of having a teammate who can carry. he has always been the #1 asset on his team and that is why his teams don't succeed. he will win rings when he is on a team as a #2. in the nba right now, there is too much talent for a pg to win rings on his own as a #1.


Eggs and chickens IMO. He controls 80% of the Clippers shots either directly or indirectly. That is a whole lot different than someone who can beat 5 players and score at will like KD or Kobe. Paul cannot finish tight games by himself. Look no further than the last 4 trips to the playoffs to see that. Once the P&R is taken away he either tries to flop his way to the line or throws up wild shots that miss badly. The last 3 possessions last year and the last 2 the year before are all the proof I need to see that.

I'm not saying that he doesn't put up great stats and make others have easier shots…. he does that. It's just that during the post season when you can game plan for him his effectiveness goes down and his teams go down. Excuse that if you will with not having a great number 2 guy…. but how many time did Kobe play with a guy that got 20 and 10 after Shaq?
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:11 pm

I think CP3 can play off the ball but why would you want to do that? He has one of the best turnover/assist ratios in history and his efficiency as a PG is right up there with the best ever. I agree that his teams can be so dependent on him that when he's out, his teams have no identity on offense but the guy is just so dam good with the ball in his hands. He never turns the ball over, he almost always makes the right basketball decision and he makes everyone else better.

I think CP3's biggest problem is that he's too unselfish and that hurts the team sometimes. He can literally get his anytime so why defer to a lesser player time and time again when you can just get yours and help the team? Doc Rivers has always asked for a more aggressive CP3 on offense because he even realizes that a more aggressive CP3 helps your team more than hurts it. Ask any Clipper fan and they would say the same. CP3 needs to be more selfish.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:11 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I think CP3 can play off the ball but why would you want to do that? He has one of the best turnover/assist ratios in history and his efficiency as a PG is right up there with the best ever. I agree that his teams can be so dependent on him that when he's out, his teams have no identity on offense but the guy is just so dam good with the ball in his hands. He never turns the ball over, he almost always makes the right basketball decision and he makes everyone else better.

I think CP3's biggest problem is that he's too unselfish and that hurts the team sometimes. He can literally get his anytime so why defer to a lesser player time and time again when you can just get yours and help the team? Doc Rivers has always asked for a more aggressive CP3 on offense because he even realizes that a more aggressive CP3 helps your team more than hurts it. Ask any Clipper fan and they would say the same. CP3 needs to be more selfish.

he doesn't have to play off the ball all the time

i'm just saying he has nobody on his teams to carry him and this is paul's fault?

lebron has wade/bosh, allen w the super 3
rondo had pierce/kg/allen
kobe had gasol/bynum
these are all superstars that can pick up the slack
cp3's casts were good, but they cannot carry when you compare them to former champions
the fact that cp3 doesn't succeed in a conference that is so absurdly stacked from 1-8 isn't a surprise.

i think the bar for success w/ cp3 is set unrealistically high. he's a fkn pg. he cant win rings by himself. you can't even name a pg who has won on his own.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:20 pm

Rooscooter wrote: Paul cannot finish tight games by himself. Look no further than the last 4 trips to the playoffs to see that. Once the P&R is taken away he either tries to flop his way to the line or throws up wild shots that miss badly. The last 3 possessions last year and the last 2 the year before are all the proof I need to see that.

I'm not saying that he doesn't put up great stats and make others have easier shots…. he does that. It's just that during the post season when you can game plan for him his effectiveness goes down and his teams go down.


if paul can't finish tight games by himself at his position, who can?
if any team counters a pg dominated team (spurs parker, okc wb), the elite teams can shift to another player.

cp3 is more than pnr. he runs transition and is a shot maker in 1v1...there is no other pg that is more complete.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby LooN3y on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:08 pm

lol at lowry at number 4.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Frank Dux on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:36 pm

^ Laugh all you want, but he's been on an absolute tear since Gay got traded. The Raptors have been winning, winning a lot man. and Lowry has been that team's engine. He's been phenomenal on both ends of the floor, and he's the leader of a Toronto team that has been pretty impressive, and far from the usual laughing stock of the league. Toronto is currently 3rd in the East, and with injuries to Westbrook, Rose, Rondo, etc it's not that ridiculous to say he's a top 5ish point guard at the moment, especially considering a highly touted guy like Irving has been less than impressive this season, and losing games.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:46 pm

halekulani wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:I think CP3 can play off the ball but why would you want to do that? He has one of the best turnover/assist ratios in history and his efficiency as a PG is right up there with the best ever. I agree that his teams can be so dependent on him that when he's out, his teams have no identity on offense but the guy is just so dam good with the ball in his hands. He never turns the ball over, he almost always makes the right basketball decision and he makes everyone else better.

I think CP3's biggest problem is that he's too unselfish and that hurts the team sometimes. He can literally get his anytime so why defer to a lesser player time and time again when you can just get yours and help the team? Doc Rivers has always asked for a more aggressive CP3 on offense because he even realizes that a more aggressive CP3 helps your team more than hurts it. Ask any Clipper fan and they would say the same. CP3 needs to be more selfish.

he doesn't have to play off the ball all the time

i'm just saying he has nobody on his teams to carry him and this is paul's fault?

lebron has wade/bosh, allen w the super 3
rondo had pierce/kg/allen
kobe had gasol/bynum
these are all superstars that can pick up the slack
cp3's casts were good, but they cannot carry when you compare them to former champions
the fact that cp3 doesn't succeed in a conference that is so absurdly stacked from 1-8 isn't a surprise.

i think the bar for success w/ cp3 is set unrealistically high. he's a fkn pg. he cant win rings by himself. you can't even name a pg who has won on his own.


You're preaching to the choir. I think he's the second best pg ever behind Magic. I agree, he's never had a second fiddle guy who was good enough to carry the load when he needed some help. West was good but not a great second fiddle. Chandler was a great d player but no offense. Blake is getting better and might be that guy but the Clips still lack that reliable, half court offense that is needed in the playoffs. Again, maybe Blake can be that reliable guy in due time but we'll have to see.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:48 pm

halekulani wrote:
Rooscooter wrote: Paul cannot finish tight games by himself. Look no further than the last 4 trips to the playoffs to see that. Once the P&R is taken away he either tries to flop his way to the line or throws up wild shots that miss badly. The last 3 possessions last year and the last 2 the year before are all the proof I need to see that.

I'm not saying that he doesn't put up great stats and make others have easier shots…. he does that. It's just that during the post season when you can game plan for him his effectiveness goes down and his teams go down.


if paul can't finish tight games by himself at his position, who can?
if any team counters a pg dominated team (spurs parker, okc wb), the elite teams can shift to another player.

cp3 is more than pnr. he runs transition and is a shot maker in 1v1...there is no other pg that is more complete.


I think CP3 is the most complete pg ever. There is not one thing he isn't very good at or great at. He has no weaknesses.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:17 pm

Wow..... Most complete ever.... Second best ever. I'll just stop de cause you guys are delusional. He's not even the best now..... Just wow.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:01 am

Rooscooter wrote:Wow..... Most complete ever.... Second best ever. I'll just stop de cause you guys are delusional. He's not even the best now..... Just wow.


Show me another PG who was more complete. Show me one weakness in his game. Magic could not play D like CP3 can. And I don't really consider Oscar Robertson a PG. He was more of a jack of all traits guard.
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Re: rank nba's top 10 pgs (2013-2014)

Postby halekulani on Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:31 am

Rooscooter wrote:(PS. Why is Rondo excluded? Curry didn't play much last year and Rondo will be back in a week or two).

rondo hasn't played a single game this season
curry has played 36 games this season

if it's not blatantly clear, these rankings are based on performance of this season only.
not future potential
not past performance or awards

just THIS season.
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