Searbs are takeing over the NBA....

Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:32 pm

Dragan wrote:Even I coached better players than Slava and Madsen. Lakers would be smart to send some scouts over here and draft some Serbian players. There is a lot of great prospects here. Radmanovic is defenetly better than Horry. This guy can do it all. And Drobnjak is not farr of behind. Aldough he is not sutch a good prospect. And thay are all better than Horry. And you know what ? Even dum Laker management knowes it..


You just stated it was unfair to compare Radmanovic to any black players? Or it was just "certain" black players. I understand now. I still wouldn't take a bum like Radmonvic or Drobnjak over Horry. Horry missed some shots this playoffs but he also played good D against KG, Rasheed Wallace, Tim Duncan, and Chris Webber. These guys eyes light up seeing Radmonvic or Drobnjak trying to check them.

Dragan wrote:And I am not even going to use our championships win over USA as a point. Cose I am inteligent enough to know it was lucky and that your guys were unprpeard and coached badly. And I alsaw agree that NBA Champion is a world champion. .


Well at least we agree on something.


Dragan wrote:Black players are not only good cose of thear phisical abilities. But thay are the best cose of those phisical abillities. Look at Steve Kerr. He is a fantastic shooter. But unlike Kobe or T mac, he can not get open by him self. Think about it.


Like I said before, I don't like to generalize people. But I'll play your little game one more time...so why then isn't Nowitzki not considered in the top 4 or 5 players in the game since he is such a physical freak of nature? No one has his agility at his size. 7 footer with 2 guard skills....NO Defense, No Heart, No shot blocking. You have to play 94 feet and 48 minutes.
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Postby crucifido on Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:52 pm

Bay Area Fan is my hero.
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Postby shaqass on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:01 am

mine is Magic, question of taste probably :man10:

what do you think of Parker's D against Jason kidd recently?

Concerning the World champion I agree that no European team could have beaten the nba champ over the last century, I don't argue with that because the NBA level is way too high. But my in european education we are not calling ourself the best if there is no way for the other countries to have a chance (even if there is no) to prove the opposite. It is what we found arrogant, maybe because we are frustrated :man5:
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Postby shaqass on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:02 am

One of the sentence that come really often is that European don't play D and American do. You can give names as you did. Kobe, TD, GP, BW etc etc. Fine but if we don't speak about some individualties, don't you agree that the general D level in the NBA is going down slowly, at least for many teams? I think the NBA need to be fun to watch because it is a business and the fans (maybe not the diehard but all the others) want to see dunks.
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Postby shaqass on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:05 am

Therefore we have to ask why many europeen players in the NBA are more offensive oriented. Because it is what the NBA wants. They want Dirk to score 30, they didn't take him for his defense, that is sure. There are really good defenders in Europe. But they won't never be drafted because it is not what the NBA need now. And just question of mathematic :jam2: . If the european players are 10% (no idea) of the NBA players it is clear that it will be easier for you to name five good D players than for Dragan :man10:
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Postby crucifido on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:11 am

Unfortunatewly the dunnk era is in full effect right now. I mean dunks are fun and thrilling but a lot of kids (and adults) think there's nothing more to the game than what is on ESPN.

If you look at when the influx of Euros began you can trace the decline in league wide defense directly to that date. To me, the three major factors in the decline of NBA play are the "dunk generation", over-expansion and European players coming in droves to the league. The reason I brought up the whole Euro topic before was because of all the hype recently about how great they are, when in fact they're not great at all.

And to answer your question about Parker's defense on Kidd, it was so-so. But one person does not contain a talent like Jason Kidd, European, Martian or otherwise. It's just as pharcical as saying that one person can stop Kobe. It's always a team effort to stop any of the superstars.
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Postby crucifido on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:18 am

The fans (and therefore the NBA), unfortunately, do look at offense way too much. And by draftin more Euros in the league it just makes it worse and worse. If there were some amazing defensvie European guy he would've been drafted already.

If you look at every championship won in the NBA, you'll find that every one was one with stellar D and good offense second. If it were won by offense alone Dallas and Boston would've been in the Finals this last season. Denver of the early 80s would've won multiple titles and Portland in the early 90's would've won a title or two. But, in basketball as in most sports, it's defense that wins the ball games. Scoring 110 only to give up 120 is obviously a recipe for disaster.

If the Mavericks only took Dirk for his offense I can guarantee you that they wish he would learn defense and learn it quickly.

All I ask is that anyone name one defender from Europe that made the All-Defensive team at any point in NBA history. Or any one that contributed to a winning season with their defense, not their outside shooting.
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Postby shaqass on Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:32 am

good point about the team defense, I agree. But TP is a good defender and he will prove it in the futur.

your 3 reasons for the decline of the NBA are good as well but it is however a pity that one more time you say stuff like: "The reason I brought up the whole Euro topic before was because of all the hype recently about how great they are, when in fact they're not great at all."

one more time you make easy paket (all European are not great at all) as soon as we say that European have something to bring. Do you have any personal problems with European? Did your German friend who is 5 years younger and 15 inch smaller than you dunked in your face when you were young? :man12: just kiding.

What I say is some the European are good if not great. If they play in the NBA it is because there are good on what they NBA want to them. If it is offense, then it is because the NBA is too offense oriented.

One of the greatest part in hoops is defense. I can watch 10 times a good defensive play. I like dunk as well but I would not sell 1block for 5 nice dunks.
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Postby Dragan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:01 am

I think that we we have here is bunch of guys who are not willing to give in. So any further argument would be waste of my time. Bottom line is we have 20 times more white Americans playing basketball but Searbs still have better players. And if you didnt have African Americans Searbs would be considerd the best basketball nation and not Americans. If Berry is the best white player you can come up with, you truly are in trouble. Aldough personaly I like the guy.


But good things is that GM`s around the league is that thay understaind what you dont want to and as a result are takeing a lot of european players. Especialy Serbian players. There were 3 Searbs taken in top 19 witch is just as mutch as white Americans ( I could be wrong here ) but we had 2 nd overall pick. When was the last time white American has bean top 2 pick ? But to be honest, GM`s are going to far. I think that Carmello should have bean No 2 and not Milicic. He is a great prospect but is still some way off. And Vranjes who was taken by the Knicks is Somilia Samake tipe of stiff. I have coached better players than him.
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Postby Leeds on Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:10 pm

Crucifido,dude,u r amazing :bow:

Let's go with Ginobili,Manu moved to Italy when he was 20,he played in Argentina for 1 season,he played in Italy for 4 seasons.
He became a starter in his third season,so where did he learn how to defense?
Now south americans play D,so where are they?
How many south american players play NBA?
How many south american players coming from south american leagues play NBA?
Prove me why south american players (players that have been playing in south america for their entire careers...Delfino and Ginobili came to Europe when they were not even backup players in S.America)

Where were u when Marciulionis was the key player with the Warriors just because of his defense?
Where were u when Phil Jackson said Petrovic could have been one of the greatest because of the way he dramatically improved his defense?
Where were u when Kukoc had a key role for the Bulls n was nominated sixth player of the year?
Where were u when LA tryed to sign Dino Radja during 2 consecutive seasons to play next to Shaq?

Where was the american defense in the Olympic Games when Jasikevicius missed a 3 point shoot in the last second that could have defeat Payton,Garnett,Carter...?
Why did those amazing defenders allowed the poor lituanian defenders to get so close to the victory?


I agree with the thing about the better physical abilities of black players,my housemate is from kenya n he admits that as a fact.
White players don't have that power,white american and white european don't have it.
There is no white european players like Schortsianitis,Amaechi,Wahad or Moiso,Pietrus,or Dominique Wilkins (originally french),but there are a lot of Ridnours,Barrys,B.Millers,Lafrentzs,Suras,Murphys,M.Millers...
Whoever of u american guys make a team with these white american players n i make a team as it follows:
Jaric,Vujanic,Jasikevicius
Bodiroga,Kirilenko,Turkoglu,Stokajovic
Nowitzki,Gasol,Illgauskas,Nesterovic,Tsakalidis
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Postby Dragan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:34 pm

Thanks for a good post Leeds. Do you remember Predrag Danilovic ? He used to start for Riley in Miami. Riles caled him his best defender other than Morning. But he could alsaw shoot. He broke MSG record for 3 pointers made without a miss. Nelson loved his game and traded Mashburn for him. But Danilovic didnt want to play for a loosing team so he didnt re sighn. That off season Bird took over Indiana and wanted to sighn him and promised him starting lineup. But he still went to europe for offer he couldnt have refuzed. Offer that made him the best payed player in europe. Its funny how it happend. Guys from his former club asked him to just sey the price. Danilovic who alrady made up his mind to go to Indiana gave than price he knew thay couldnt folow. But somehow thay did. And he had to go play in Italy. Incidentaly he played longside Ginobili who was than his backup.
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Postby Leeds on Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:42 pm

Dragan wrote:Thanks for a good post Leeds. Do you remember Predrag Danilovic ? He used to start for Riley in Miami. Riles caled him his best defender other than Morning. But he could alsaw shoot. He broke MSG record for 3 pointers made without a miss. Nelson loved his game and traded Mashburn for him. But Danilovic didnt want to play for a loosing team so he didnt re sighn. That off season Bird took over Indiana and wanted to sighn him and promised him starting lineup. But he still went to europe for offer he couldnt have refuzed. Offer that made him the best payed player in europe. Its funny how it happend. Guys from his former club asked him to just sey the price. Danilovic who alrady made up his mind to go to Indiana gave than price he knew thay couldnt folow. But somehow thay did. And he had to go play in Italy. Incidentaly he played longside Ginobili who was than his backup.


Of course,i remember Sasha Danilovic,i think he is now Partizan's president.
N i also remember him playing in Bolonia,that year they had a hell of a team,Danilovic,Jaric,Ginobili,R.Griffith,Rigadeau,one of the best line-ups in Europe.
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Postby Dragan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:52 pm

We can look at this thing as a problem. You know, coaches in US are developing thear training acording to thear best players who happend to be black so thay are preaching power game that doesent suit white guys. And we, european coaches preach finnes game that is sutebale to white guys. Thats why you have less and less white guys going threw and becoming players and we have more and more good players coming out. Dont you agree that NBA superstars of the past ( Magic, Bird or King ) would mutch more fit european finnes game than NBA power game ? Cose thay were playing finnes game that doesent fit today`s NBA. That power game is the reason there is no good white American players in the NBA. Cose thay are being toth to play game that isent sutebale for tham.
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:19 pm

Dragan wrote:I think that we we have here is bunch of guys who are not willing to give in. So any further argument would be waste of my time. Bottom line is we have 20 times more white Americans playing basketball but Searbs still have better players. And if you didnt have African Americans Searbs would be considerd the best basketball nation and not Americans.


Dragan, if all you want is confirmation of your sacred players being better than white-americans then...you go ahead and pat yourself on the back. You country has the best non-athletic, non-dunking, non-defense-playing, 3-point shooting, soft-as-tissue-paper players in the world!

I didn't say anyone of those white players were all-stars, I simply stated they were solid NBA players. Which is still better than 99.9% of players in the world.

And IMO, if we still didn't have African-Americans, the US would still be the #1 B-Ball nation in the world. We still have the best coaches, best b-ball infrastructure, and best breeding grounds for B-ball. Again, this is my opinion. And if we let 16 year-olds turn professional like they do everywhere else, we would make even more players.

I simply wanted to reply to your posts initially to say that "most" Americans stay away from trivial blanket statements that demean specific groups. I could really care less if White-Americans aren't in the NBA as much as they were in the past, they still own, rule, govern 95% of the US! Do not be fooled by what you see on TV and through pop-culture. The real money, power, and respect still lies in the hands of the same groups of 100 or 200 years ago. But your prejudicial statements make you look ignorant, uneducated, and narrow-minded.

Do not post on a public website and not want your points argued and discussed. You my friend, are the one who is not willing to give in. You cannot once argue any of my points.


oh btw...please do not count Dominique as being a European player...granted he was born in France that was about it.
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:37 pm

Where were u when Marciulionis was the key player with the Warriors just because of his defense?


Okay, I'm from the BayArea, so let me talk on this one. Sarunas was a great player. But I think his greatest attribute was his all-around toughness. This dude was fearless.

Where were u when Phil Jackson said Petrovic could have been one of the greatest because of the way he dramatically improved his defense?


We can only now say how great Drazen would have been. I believe Phil said this in memory of Drazen. Was it a coincidence that he just started to improve his defense when he started playing for Chuck Daly? But who knows how good he would have been...

Where were u when Kukoc had a key role for the Bulls n was nominated sixth player of the year?


I don't think Kukoc was nominated for his defense lets just say. He was and is probably the worst defender in the NBA. He can however handle the ball, shoot, and pass for a guy his size.

Where were u when LA tryed to sign Dino Radja during 2 consecutive seasons to play next to Shaq?


Radja??? Well they have also tried to sign every available PF since Shaq got to LA.

Where was the american defense in the Olympic Games when Jasikevicius missed a 3 point shoot in the last second that could have defeat Payton,Garnett,Carter...?


Just win, baby. All that matters, right? Lets not talk about woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Why did those amazing defenders allowed the poor lituanian defenders to get so close to the victory?


Good coaching for Lithuania? Wasn't that Donnie Nelson and Rolando Blackman on the bench for Lithuania?

Whoever of u american guys make a team with these white american players n i make a team as it follows:
Jaric,Vujanic,Jasikevicius
Bodiroga,Kirilenko,Turkoglu,Stokajovic
Nowitzki,Gasol,Illgauskas,Nesterovic,Tsakalidis


Not a bad team you have there. Of course with your salary cap you would need Mark Cuban and the Maloof Brothers to own the team. :freak2:
I'll play white GM then also to humor you:
Jason Williams, Brent Barry, Bobby Sura
Mike Miller, Wally Scerbiak, Matt Harpring
Brad Miller, Raef Lafrentz, Troy Murphy, Nick Collison

and I'll throw in Ostertag, Madsen, and Chris Dudley to get some nice hard fouls.
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Postby Leeds on Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:39 pm

Jaric,Vujanic,Jasikevicius
Bodiroga,Kirilenko,Turkoglu,Stokajovic
Nowitzki,Gasol,Illgauskas,Nesterovic,Tsakalidis


Just guys show me a team made of american white players to face this one.

I will start with Jaric,Stojakovic,Bodiroga,Nowitzki and Gasol.

By the way guys,do u know where Kobe started to play basketball?
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:34 pm

Hey Leeds,
I just look at your list again. You cheated and used all Euro players and not only Serbians! :spin:

So I will then expand my team to Canadians and Mexican players.

I will add Steve Nash and Eduardo Najera to my team.

I am now starting:

Nash, Szerbiak, Matt Harpring, Raef, and Brad Miller.

Not too bad, what do you think? Two tough skilled guys (BMiller and Harpring). One bad-[Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] point guard (Nash) but lets be real this guy is as American as apple-pie. He went to school right here in the Bay Area.
Three dead-eye shooters (Nash, Wally, and Harpring)

Mike Miller, Jason Williams, Troy Murphy, and Najera getting the bulk of the bench minutes.
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Postby Leeds on Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:56 pm

Okay, I'm from the BayArea, so let me talk on this one. Sarunas was a great player. But I think his greatest attribute was his all-around toughness. This dude was fearless

Does it mean the guy could defend?



We can only now say how great Drazen would have been. I believe Phil said this in memory of Drazen. Was it a coincidence that he just started to improve his defense when he started playing for Chuck Daly? But who knows how good he would have been...

Well,Riley,when Drazen was still alive,said he was the guy he needed for the Knicks to win the championship.Drazen started to improve his defense when he realized his offensive skills wouldn't be enough for him to be one of the biggest players.

I don't think Kukoc was nominated for his defense lets just say. He was and is probably the worst defender in the NBA. He can however handle the ball, shoot, and pass for a guy his size.

Did he play a key role coming from the bench?

Radja??? Well they have also tried to sign every available PF since Shaq got to LA.

Dino Radja 224 games 17.0ppg,8.4rpg,1.3bpg,.500 FG%
Not just another PF...

Good coaching for Lithuania? Wasn't that Donnie Nelson and Rolando Blackman on the bench for Lithuania?

So i guess Donnie n Rolando(amazing defender during all his career i have to say :mhihi: ) were there in the court defending Garnett,Payton,Carter,R.Allen and Mourning.
How could the great Blackman miss the 3 point shoot? :bang:

U guys really rate european players very high :bow: :bow:
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Postby Dragan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:51 am

I dont nead confirmation that Serbian players are better than white American players. Averyone who knowes anything about basketball will agree on that. But if you didnt have African American players, I guess you would teach your kids to play differently so you would do better. But would you do better than Searbs ? I dont know. And from all those things you sead you have, the biggest advantage is that you have 20 times as many white players than we have. And dont get caried away with who owns America cose that statement is just racist stuff and has nothing to do with basketball. I answrd all your points. We even went threw player by player comparisens and its obvious that we have better players. So I dont se whats the problem.


Drazen started playing better defence when he started playing period. He didnt even play in Portland. He just neaded time to seattle down on his own. I toth Radmanovic is worst defensive player in the NBA. Or is it Kukoc. Make up your mind. Radja was a great player. I know him better than all of you and I still watch him play. And dont even start with just win counts baby after you were beaten 3 times on your own soil by teams you were suposed to beat. Nelson and Blackman were just the assistents.
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Postby Dragan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:16 am

POWER FORWARD / CENTER
Its funny but white Americans dont have 1 player that can compear with best europeans on this positions. Just look at Nowitcki and Gasol. Or even Divac and Milicic. Thay are all creative big man while you can not find one creative white American big guy.
SMALL FORWARD / SHOOTING GUARD
Again, you dont have anyone who can match quality of Bodiroga and Stojakovic.
I guess you will improve your team with Nash but I dont think you nead him cose you have PG position with Williams. So ether way, its 4/1 in favour of europeans. And if you look at those guys, thay are all stiffs. Miller, Reaf and Harpring are hard workers but stiffs. You are better of takeing Miller insted of Harpring in my oppinion.
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Postby Dragan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:26 am

This is hopeless. I think he knowes he is wrong. And I think it was funny how he decided to take Nash to make his team better. Brakeing rules to take one player only goes out to prove that he realises how pitifull his team is. Bottom like, that team wouldnt even win the Championship.
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:37 am

Does it mean the guy could defend?


Yes, Sarunas was great defender. I think you may have missed my point.

Did he play a key role coming from the bench?


Of course he played a key role. No one ever said he didn't.
Dino Radja 224 games 17.0ppg,8.4rpg,1.3bpg,.500 FG%
Not just another PF... ?


Those are some nice numbers, I didn't do my research, sorry, but I still don't know what your point was on this one. The Lakers from day one are still looking for a solid PF to match up with Shaq.

Good coaching for Lithuania? Wasn't that Donnie Nelson and Rolando Blackman on the bench for Lithuania?
So i guess Donnie n Rolando(amazing defender during all his career i have to say :mhihi: ) were there in the court defending Garnett,Payton,Carter,R.Allen and Mourning.
How could the great Blackman miss the 3 point shoot? :bang:


The point is they still won the game.

U guys really rate european players very high :bow: :bow:


I think you are missing my message compared to Crucifido. I never said Euro players could not play. I don't like Dragan's message of comparing his entire country to one group in the US. I do agree that with Crucifido that *in general* Euro game is more offensive-oriented and not entirely geared to NBA playoff-type basketball.
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:45 am

Dragan wrote:This is hopeless. I think he knowes he is wrong. And I think it was funny how he decided to take Nash to make his team better. Brakeing rules to take one player only goes out to prove that he realises how pitifull his team is. Bottom like, that team wouldnt even win the Championship.


Dragan, you are hopeless. At least Leeds was able to make some good points and backed it up with some numbers and facts. You are still argueing your stupid white-americans vs. Serbian thing. And saying that white-americans run the US is racist, is not racist. I am a minority in this country because of my skin color and I can see with my own eyes. The reason for me to bring that up was that I was showing that I was being objective.

I never said this team would a championship. I said it was "not too bad". Of course you can tell that I don't have much to work with. Leeds conveniently used the entire continent of Europe and the sub-continent of Russia to use as a pool for his talent, and not just Serbia. I was playing your little wannabe GM game. So fine the owner of my team since I dragged in Nas, of which I will choose Bill Gates. :jam2:
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:54 am

Dragan wrote:Drazen started playing better defence when he started playing period. He didnt even play in Portland. He just neaded time to seattle down on his own. I toth Radmanovic is worst defensive player in the NBA. Or is it Kukoc. Make up your mind. Radja was a great player. I know him better than all of you and I still watch him play. And dont even start with just win counts baby after you were beaten 3 times on your own soil by teams you were suposed to beat. Nelson and Blackman were just the assistents.


Actually I think I was referring to when Drazen played on the Nets, not Portland.

Radmanovic is pretty bad, but Kukoc is positively the worst. But nothing against their offensive games. Great shooters, passers, and ball handlers for their size.

If you read my previous posts, I gave all the credit to the other teams when they beat Team USA. I just don't like to recount when someone barely won or barely lost. I still don't know why people talk of Jordan's 63 points in the playoffs so much, his team lost. Again, just win, baby!.

I brought up Nelson and Blackman as humor. Humor, get it, ha, ha...again I give all the credit to someone if they win. But they didn't, so move on. You can take all your moral victories and throw them away for all I'm concerned.
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Postby BayAreaLakerFan on Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:40 am

Dragan wrote:POWER FORWARD / CENTER
Its funny but white Americans dont have 1 player that can compear with best europeans on this positions. Just look at Nowitcki and Gasol. Or even Divac and Milicic. Thay are all creative big man while you can not find one creative white American big guy.


You win on this one. Never said they were better, Lafrentz and BMiller are still solid NBA guys who can play D and hit an outside jumper. I don't need my big guys to be too creative when I have Nash and JWill running the show. I just need them to Play D, Rebound, blocks some shots and hit a couple of open jumpers. Good role players basically

Dragan wrote:SMALL FORWARD / SHOOTING GUARD
Again, you dont have anyone who can match quality of Bodiroga and Stojakovic.


Mike Miller, Scerbiak, and Harpring are far from stiffs. Miller and Harpring can really bring it on the defensive end and all of them are dead-eye shooters from 3point and mid-range. I like Miller for his offense off the bench but like Harpring starting because of his toughness and good shooting.

Your team if placed in the NBA and depending on conference would probably get to maybe 2nd round of the playoffs in West, and probably to the Finals in the East. You would lose in the West as you would have to play against the dominant big guys with LAL, SA, Portland, Dallas. In the East, it would be easy pickings until you got to the finals and lost to the LAL or SA.

My team would probably get to the 2nd round also in the West, maybe WCF if my guards have a good series. I have no real inside game so I have to rely on my Guards and SF to provide penetration and postups. I would have to rely heavily on Nash to setup everyone and still score 20+ a game. On defense I have some good athletes and decent shot blockers and rebounders and some very tough individual defenders. Since I am only the GM, my choice of coach would be Phil Jackson and company running the offense and Larry Brown and Pat Riley as the defensive assistants.

So as a whole TEAM, and not inviduals, along with great coaching, my team would not be TOO BAD.
BayAreaLakerFan

 
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