Shaq vs. Duncan

Who should be ranked higher in an all time list; Shaq or Duncan?

Shaq
16
64%
Duncan
9
36%
 
Total votes : 25

Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby John3:16 on Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:48 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:You don't have Duncan 1st or 2nd on your PF list? Who do you have above him? No PF has accomplished more than him. 2 regular seasons mvps, 3 finals mvps, 5 rings, first team all-nba and first team all-defensive on too many occassions to count. He was dominant on both ends. How can any objective person NOT say he was the greatest PF ever?


While I think Duncan is the greatest PF, a strong case can be made for Malone. There's another PF that can also be included in the top 3 list, but I can't say his name right now. I'll say it tomorrow after I draft him. LOL
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:48 pm

John3:16 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:As is always the case with me..... rings are Team Accomplishments and player rankings are individual. So the rings don't play into it with me. How they played and performed under pressure is but not the team results.


I don't think rings are the end all be all. But when discussing great players, you have to bring rings into the equation. Clearly Baylor, Malone and Stockton get knocked down a peg for not having rings. Does that make Horry the greatest of the past 40 years? No. He's not great. But a basketball player can impact a game like no one else in any other sport (including QBs and starting pitchers). The difference is a QB isn't on the field half the time and a pitcher only goes every 4 games. A basketball players impact is HUGE on the outcome of the game and if you're the stud, your play goes a LONG way toward a W or an L.


Not to derail the thread but I just don't use MVP's and Championships as a metric to rank players. TEAMS win championships.

Here's the reason I don't use them.

65 seasons.....
8 teams account for 56 of them

So... if championships count then you have but a few players from which to choose.

Also.... Does Shaq ever win one without Kobe or Wade? Does Jordan without Pippen and Grant/Rodman? Does Duncan without Manu and Parker/Elliot/Robinson? Does Bird without McHale/Johnson/Parrish. Does Kareem without Magic/Big O?

It's a team accomplishment to me.

MVP's are a popularity contest. Need I say more than Nash over Kobe in Kobe's best 2 seasons as a pro?

I said I was in the minority here...... :man10:

All of that aside I believe both of these guys are a little overrated IMO. Both had differing but basically equal impact. Duncan was consistent and Shaq was dominant.... for 3.25 quarters.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby John3:16 on Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:54 pm

^^^ I'm with ya on the MVP award.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:04 pm

John3:16 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:You don't have Duncan 1st or 2nd on your PF list? Who do you have above him? No PF has accomplished more than him. 2 regular seasons mvps, 3 finals mvps, 5 rings, first team all-nba and first team all-defensive on too many occassions to count. He was dominant on both ends. How can any objective person NOT say he was the greatest PF ever?


While I think Duncan is the greatest PF, a strong case can be made for Malone. There's another PF that can also be included in the top 3 list, but I can't say his name right now. I'll say it tomorrow after I draft him. LOL


Malone is right up there but he can't be ranked ahead of Duncan. Not if you are being objective. Duncan is one of the most accomplished players in the history of the game, regardless of position. His body of work is matched by only a handful of players in the history of this game.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Cleansed on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:17 pm

...better career? Duncan
...better player? ... ........ .......... Shaq

Higher on the All Time List? Well it is an All TIME List. Taking into account how much Timmy has accomplished All TIME (heh) i'd have to go with Duncan by a whisker.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby dmaul on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:19 pm

Rooscooter wrote:All of that aside I believe both of these guys are a little overrated IMO. Both had differing but basically equal impact. Duncan was consistent and Shaq was dominant.... for 3.25 quarters.

^ If you're not that impressed with Shaq and Duncan, then I bet you use Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as your measuring stick for excellence. If so, I won't disagree one bit. In the back of my mind, I was hoping that Duncan would not win MVP this year because at 38 years old, that would sully Kareem's accomplishment of winning Finals MVP at 38 in 1985. And there is no way Duncan, at 38, is as good as Kareem was at 38.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:33 pm

John3:16 wrote:Doc -- good stats. Thanks for posting.

Phil was 3-1 vs Pop in the playoffs. LA lost to SA in 99 before he arrived. Believe it was a brutal sweep.

Robinson used to guard Shaq until he retired. I'm of the opinion that Robinson was a better defensive player then Duncan, despite Timmy winning numerous Def Player 1st team awards.


Shaq was a bully in all of his match ups. Then he calls out the opposing players telling them to (man up), not flop, etc. I remember Shaq brutalizing Robinson. Just pounding him backward and elbows to his head, mouth, wherever they landed. He did the same to Mutombo. Never have understood the rules that allow the stronger player, if he has the ball, to just keep pounding and going straight back through his defender who has proper position.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:05 pm

dmaul wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:All of that aside I believe both of these guys are a little overrated IMO. Both had differing but basically equal impact. Duncan was consistent and Shaq was dominant.... for 3.25 quarters.

^ If you're not that impressed with Shaq and Duncan, then I bet you use Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as your measuring stick for excellence. If so, I won't disagree one bit. In the back of my mind, I was hoping that Duncan would not win MVP this year because at 38 years old, that would sully Kareem's accomplishment of winning Finals MVP at 38 in 1985. And there is no way Duncan, at 38, is as good as Kareem was at 38.


This is a current situation. That also tends to over value players without true context.

Both players are among the all time greats.... No doubt. I just don't weigh team accomplishments and that leaves a lot more players in my universe of all time greats. I value players that redefined a position as much as dominating one. Baylor and Maravich redefined the wing position. Jordan and Kobe followed. Does that mean they are higher..... Not at all but without former the latter most likely don't exist.

Neither of these guys redefined the position.

To me.... Kareem is out in front of all centers. Longevity, insane consistency and domination along with a work ethic that comes along in 2 or 3 players in a generation. He played alpha and beta on great teams. He changed his game to adapt to Showtime. Shaq was a one trick pony.....a fantastic trick but the work ethic to complete his game was missing and he could have been so much better....
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Magic Skywalker on Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:05 am

John3:16 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:You don't have Duncan 1st or 2nd on your PF list? Who do you have above him? No PF has accomplished more than him. 2 regular seasons mvps, 3 finals mvps, 5 rings, first team all-nba and first team all-defensive on too many occassions to count. He was dominant on both ends. How can any objective person NOT say he was the greatest PF ever?


While I think Duncan is the greatest PF, a strong case can be made for Malone. There's another PF that can also be included in the top 3 list, but I can't say his name right now. I'll say it tomorrow after I draft him. LOL



I think I know who that guy is. And if it is who I think it is. Great choice.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby LooN3y on Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:12 am

why do they even consider Duncan a PF? because of his jumpshot? passing ability? i mean i know he can work the high post.

but it seems like everyone and their momma labels him a center
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby halekulani on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:00 am

shaq was easily the better player/higher peak
duncan was just more consistent
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:37 am

Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Interesting.... I think both are overrated in some respects. Shaq was the most dominant for 3.25 quarters then he was rendered moot because of his FT%.

Duncan is such a nice guy and has stayed "clean".... that give him an image that has enhanced his overall value. To me Duncan has been very good but never "great" except for brief stretches. He's a model of consistency kind of like Kareem but never as dominant and never as clutch. That's my biggest issue with Duncan.... he's coughed up some pretty big hair balls in tight situations over the years but he's also played well in some huge games as well.

I'd rank them close to the same level but most likely below most overall. As far as PF go.... I don't put Duncan at the top or even second.

As is always the case with me..... rings are Team Accomplishments and player rankings are individual. So the rings don't play into it with me. How they played and performed under pressure is but not the team results.


You don't have Duncan 1st or 2nd on your PF list? Who do you have above him? No PF has accomplished more than him. 2 regular seasons mvps, 3 finals mvps, 5 rings, first team all-nba and first team all-defensive on too many occassions to count. He was dominant on both ends. How can any objective person NOT say he was the greatest PF ever?


I thought you were ignoring me.

This is basically a bait post and I will ignore it.

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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:45 am

If Shaq had any sort of work ethic the idea of this question would be laughable. Shaq was simply an amazing player that literally couldn't be stopped (sans free throw line). Even though his giant baby act soured me on him the fact remains he was physically the most imposing player to play since Wilt. Timmy has been the solid blue-color anchor for his team for over a decade. His longevity and productivity over those years is what makes him a top tier all time player. He was fundamentally as sound as anyone and consistently put up the numbers to prove it. He was never the "face" of anything just simply the presence of his team. Shaq was the face of the flashy 3-peat champs. He had the fued, he had the charisma and he had the bigger than life personality and game. In the end, Shaq takes this conversation fairly easy in my book and that is with me believing Timmy is one of the NBA's all time greats. Had Shaq had Kobe's work ethic SHaq would be pretty much a lock at GOAT in my book.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby thkthebest on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:33 am

Some more numbers. They're actually really close numerically on the all-time lists.

Regular Season:
Scoring:
Duncan: #24
Shaq: #8
(Lol, those are Kobe's jersey numbers)

Rebounding:
Duncan: #12
Shaq: #15

Blocks:
Duncan: #8
Shaq: #9

Assists:
Duncan: #118
Shaq: #196

Duncan: 43605 minutes played
Shaq: 41918 minutes played

Playoffs:
Scoring:
Duncan: #5
Shaq: #4

Rebounds:
Duncan: #3
Shaq: #4

Blocks:
Duncan: #1 (this surprised me, but he's ahead of 2nd place by 69 blocks!)
Shaq: #4

Assists:
Duncan: #28
Shaq: #39

Duncan: 8902 minutes played
Shaq: 8098 minutes played
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:54 am

I like Duncan, and he's put up consistent 20/10 numbers for years. But he's like a consistent Pau to me. He always looks like he can dominate if he wants to, but he doesn't. He just puts up consistent numbers, and on occasion he hits a clutch shot in the playoffs. A Better version of Pau.

Shaq dominated. Every night from his rookie season to 03, and parts of 04 when his foot was healthy. Shaq was unstoppable in his prime. Duncan was not.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby 432J on Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:36 am

duncan-more successful career
shaq-more dominant player

duncan is easily the greatest PF of all time to me but he was never "dominant" in the way that shaq was. in shaq's prime, he simply could not be stopped. his 1999-2000 season was one of the greatest seasons by a player in recent history (29.7 PPG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 3.0 BPG) While Duncan's greatest stretch came in the early 2000s with his best season being 2001-2002 (25.5 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.5 BPG)
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:05 am

thkthebest wrote:Some more numbers. They're actually really close numerically on the all-time lists.

Regular Season:
Scoring:
Duncan: #24
Shaq: #8
(Lol, those are Kobe's jersey numbers)

Rebounding:
Duncan: #12
Shaq: #15

Blocks:
Duncan: #8
Shaq: #9

Assists:
Duncan: #118
Shaq: #196

Duncan: 43605 minutes played
Shaq: 41918 minutes played

Playoffs:
Scoring:
Duncan: #5
Shaq: #4

Rebounds:
Duncan: #3
Shaq: #4

Blocks:
Duncan: #1 (this surprised me, but he's ahead of 2nd place by 69 blocks!)
Shaq: #4

Assists:
Duncan: #28
Shaq: #39

Duncan: 8902 minutes played
Shaq: 8098 minutes played

At this point most of these numbers will be skewed towards Duncan because a) he's had a longer career and b) he had more successful teams for a longer period of time. Shaq had the 3 peat years through the Miami seasons. After that he floated around and gave meaningless minutes to Phoenix and Boston.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:29 am

432J wrote:duncan is easily the greatest PF of all time


I think it's debatable that he's been the best PF of the last 20 years personally and very debatable that he's the best PF ever. Consistent?.... yes. "Best"... debatable.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby LooN3y on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:08 pm

lol, I do label him as probably one of the best PF to ever play.

but am i wrong to be a bit biased because his play is so boring?
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby southbaylakers72 on Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:40 pm

Tim Duncan coming out of Wake Forest was easily a legendary player before he had an NBA gig. He never rose to the level of KAJ, Wilt, Russell...but...this is an interesting question: If lakers had paired kobe and duncan would they have won 3 in the early part of 2000's? Shaq more dominant player and the only reason that Duncan and Spurs did not win more during their 15 year run. Duncan wilted against Shaq. Do I have to decide or can we just acknowledge that Duncan was a great player on a good team with a good coach. Shaq was a dominant player who could have been more.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Fly Like A Mosquito Bite on Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:57 pm

The better player was Shaq but Duncan had a better career and I'd rather have Duncan on my team than Shaq.

Imagine if Kobe and Duncan played together for the last 18 years. I think they would have won 10 championships together and that's not a joke.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby southbaylakers72 on Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:02 pm

Hate to say it but you are right. Though Shaq almost won championships with 4 different teams. Orlando, Lakers, Heat, and Cavs. If Duncan were on Magic, Heat, Cavs, would they have even made finals?
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Kobe Bryant 8 on Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:19 pm

If I want to win one game, give me Shaq in his prime. His peak was untouchable in terms of physical dominance. He destroyed opposing players in ways that was just plain wrong.

Duncan has had the better career. Rings and consistency speak volumes. He's been doing it since he started as a rookie. Until we see Duncan go from SA to PHX, CLE, BOS at the tail end of his career, the answer will always be Duncan. When you think SA Spurs, he comes to mind, and he'll probably will be that guy for the remainder of NBA history.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby TIME on Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:25 pm

It's a fairly close vote for a Lakers site.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby John3:16 on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:06 am

TIME wrote:It's a fairly close vote for a Lakers site.


I think most chose Kobe after the divorce. Touch to go back and pick Shaq in anything. I wonder what the stats would look like when comparing Kobe and Duncan.
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