Shaq vs. Duncan

Who should be ranked higher in an all time list; Shaq or Duncan?

Shaq
16
64%
Duncan
9
36%
 
Total votes : 25

Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:09 am

John3:16 wrote:
TIME wrote:It's a fairly close vote for a Lakers site.


I think most chose Kobe after the divorce. Touch to go back and pick Shaq in anything. I wonder what the stats would look like when comparing Kobe and Duncan.


I'm bored so....

Awards:

Titles:
Duncan: 5
Kobe: 5

Finals MVP:
Duncan: 3
Kobe: 2

MVPs:
Duncan: 2
Kobe: 1

All-Stars:
Duncan: 14
Kobe: 16

All-Star MVP:
Duncan: 1
Kobe: 4

All-NBA Teams:
Duncan: 14 (10 1st)
Kobe: 15 (11 1st)

All-Defensive Teams:
Duncan: 14 (8 1st)
Kobe: 12 (9 1st)

Stat leaderboard:

Regular Season:

Scoring:
Duncan: #24 (#19 without ABA)
Kobe: #4 (with or without ABA)

Rebounding:
Duncan: #12 (#11 without ABA)
Kobe: #133 (#123 without ABA)

Assists:
Duncan: #118 (#114 without ABA)
Kobe: #33 (with or without ABA)

Blocks:
Duncan: #8 (#7 without ABA)
Kobe: #183 (#179 without ABA)

Steals:
Duncan: #193 (#187 without ABA)
Kobe: #17 (#16 without ABA)

Minutes played:
Duncan: 43605
Kobe: 45567

Playoffs (NBA only):

Scoring:
Duncan: #5
Kobe: #3

Rebounding:
Duncan: #3
Kobe: #35

Assists:
Duncan: #27
Kobe: #7

Blocks:
Duncan: #1
Kobe: #37

Steals:
Duncan: #39
Kobe: #5

Minutes played:
Duncan: 8902
Kobe: 8641
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby LooN3y on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:35 am

i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.


the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:58 am

To be fair, maybe he could've gotten silver (though he didn't), but it would've been playing against a VERY good Spain team... Of course, he went clutch mode in 2008... and was also big in 2012 (though the most important man there was KD).
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Steady C on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:29 pm

I gotta say I 110% agree with the Kobe & Duncan sentiment in this thread, there's no debate, Bryant > Duncan.

Staying on topic, imho, Shaquille is to Tim, as Michael is to Kobe. Close enough in the rankings to one another, however there being a sizeable gap between each set of players, the better player being obvious (again, in my mind). Shaquille's longevity's being underrated here as well, I'd rank his longevity over Duncan's. He had a hell of a recovery in '09 during the year he had a 45/11 game on 20/25 shooting, a 29/13/6 game, a 33/7/3 game on 13/18 shooting to name a few.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby havoc33 on Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:34 am

LooN3y wrote:i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.

the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.

Actually, go to any non-Laker board, and a majority might argue Tim over Kobe. And that was even before this season. I'm having Kobe ahead of Duncan myself, but it's close. Kobe was more skilled and his peak was longer. People who are fond of advanced stats and effeciency will favour Duncan.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Steady C on Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:46 pm

havoc33 wrote:
LooN3y wrote:i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.

the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.

Actually, go to any non-Laker board, and a majority might argue Tim over Kobe. And that was even before this season. I'm having Kobe ahead of Duncan myself, but it's close. Kobe was more skilled and his peak was longer. People who are fond of advanced stats and effeciency will favour Duncan.


I really wouldn't say it's as much Lakeset bias, as it is Bryant hate, outside of yellow & purple forums. And advanced stats and efficiency say that The Admiral's a top 15 player ever, so it gets tricky in utilizing advanced stats and such to form points of view. I could sit here all day, and list all the contradictories with every advanced stat, and prove how full of **** they are, but I'd prefer not to derail the thread.

Anyways, I'm not seeing how it's particularly close. Bryant's been the closest thing to Jordan, and has actually been the face of the league, and consensus best player in the game from '06-'10. Duncan's a legend in his own right, but like another poster briliantly put it, he's only been elite/dominant for brief stretches, and has never been the best player in the league/face of the league. Folks like to mention how Duncan's "underrated" due to the small market he plays in, and how he also gets underrated due to lack of substance, but the truth is, that same small market's also helped to mask the black marks on his resume, such as the '13 Finals, game 6 only scoring 5 points after halftime I believe, the game 7 missed lay-up immediately being swept under the rug, his 2004 disaster, losing with HCA six times.

Karl Malone was his equal early on, during his 1st MVP, O'Neal was still the best player in the league (although Duncan certainly closed the gap) and in '03, I'd say Kobe was the best player in the game, with his 1st Team defense, and his historic scoring clinics. '04 Garnett held that title, he has a miserable Olympic showing, getting outplayed by his bench player, bring home silver, and from there it's injuries and a reduced role/minutes. He wins a ring Joe Dumars-style this year, and everyone wants to go crazy, lol. He's definitely a top-10 player all-time, but when the 00's are looked back on, I believe Kobe and Shaquille are the quintessential forefront of the decade, with Duncan being somewhere between them and Garnett.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:06 pm

havoc33 wrote:
LooN3y wrote:i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.

the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.

Actually, go to any non-Laker board, and a majority might argue Tim over Kobe. And that was even before this season. I'm having Kobe ahead of Duncan myself, but it's close. Kobe was more skilled and his peak was longer. People who are fond of advanced stats and effeciency will favour Duncan.

and they would be wrong. The Shaq v duncan is barely a debate and that is simply because Shaq was lazy. Duncan vs Kobe shouldn't even be put in a sentence unless you are talking team success over the long haul. Timmy's teams have been more consistent at staying relevant where Kobe's has been up and down. Player vs player though its not really an argument in my opinion
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Finwë on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:08 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
havoc33 wrote:
LooN3y wrote:i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.

the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.

Actually, go to any non-Laker board, and a majority might argue Tim over Kobe. And that was even before this season. I'm having Kobe ahead of Duncan myself, but it's close. Kobe was more skilled and his peak was longer. People who are fond of advanced stats and effeciency will favour Duncan.

and they would be wrong. The Shaq v duncan is barely a debate and that is simply because Shaq was lazy. Duncan vs Kobe shouldn't even be put in a sentence unless you are talking team success over the long haul. Timmy's teams have been more consistent at staying relevant where Kobe's has been up and down. Player vs player though its not really an argument in my opinion

Xactly
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby LooN3y on Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:40 pm

Finwë wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
havoc33 wrote:
LooN3y wrote:i wouldn't even compare Kobe and duncan, there is no argument.

Kobe would of never got bronze or silver in international competition.

the argument on first take about kobe vs duncan is just completely ridiculous and fair-weather fans will actually believe there is an argument on that.

Actually, go to any non-Laker board, and a majority might argue Tim over Kobe. And that was even before this season. I'm having Kobe ahead of Duncan myself, but it's close. Kobe was more skilled and his peak was longer. People who are fond of advanced stats and effeciency will favour Duncan.

and they would be wrong. The Shaq v duncan is barely a debate and that is simply because Shaq was lazy. Duncan vs Kobe shouldn't even be put in a sentence unless you are talking team success over the long haul. Timmy's teams have been more consistent at staying relevant where Kobe's has been up and down. Player vs player though its not really an argument in my opinion

Xactly




arent we talking about player vs player?


04 KG > 04 Duncan

98-02 Shaq > 98- 02 Duncan

i mean we are talking about them in their primes right?


Duncan along with AI, Vince, T-Mac got embarrassed in international competition in 04



i highly doubt the likes of prime KG, Shaq, Young/Prime/50yo kobe would get anything less then the gold.


i really think anyone picking duncan as a better player than any of those 3 is on that dope (speaking in their prime that is)
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:58 pm

^^Yup.... Everyone is forgetting that Duncan may not even be the best PF in his career window. KG is in that discussion IMHO.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby halekulani on Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:54 am

the difficulty of achieving a 3peat is seriously exponential. while everyone commends the spurs for longevity, winning 3 in a row is much more difficult.
and the sad part is shaq made it look so easy that people won't take his achievement seriously. but now guys like lebron even know an old duncan and company can still take his team in 5.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:04 am

^^i agree that 3 peats are hard but the SA run is unique in the NBA. They have stayed at or near the top for 16 years. In the history of the NBA that is unpresidented.

Now that has little to do with Dumcan other than he's stayed injury free.... It's the front office that has made this happen.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby OX1947 on Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:52 pm

Had Shaq and Kobe not turned into two little girls about whos team it was, these arguments would be null and void. I had these topics when they are brought up because it makes me think about the shaq and kobe era as an era of unfulfilled potential despite a 3 peat. Kobe and Shaq should have ended their careers with 6 or 7 titles together, period.
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Re: Shaq vs. Duncan

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:54 pm

OX1947 wrote:Had Shaq and Kobe not turned into two little girls about whos team it was, these arguments would be null and void. I had these topics when they are brought up because it makes me think about the shaq and kobe era as an era of unfulfilled potential despite a 3 peat. Kobe and Shaq should have ended their careers with 6 or 7 titles together, period.


Their problems are emblematic of success and the reason why dynamic personalities clash most of the time. Even Kareem and Magic had issues. Kareem was nearly shipped out in 1981 when Magic began to want "HIS" team. They all hated Riley's guts by the end as well. That is what is unique about the runs by Boston in the 60's and SA's now. It's really only happened twice that I can think of.
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