Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JSM on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:10 pm

Chris Tomasson ‏@christomasson 10m
David Stern on replay: "We have asked the fans and they say it's absolutely worth the delay. You have an obligation to get it right.''

Darnell Mayberry ‏@DarnellMayberry 10m
NBA Commissioner David Stern says the league is considering off-site in-game reviews similar to the NHL.

Chris Tomasson ‏@christomasson 8m
Adam Silver mentioned having replay officials possibly at another site watching monitors rather than officials walking over, thus delay

Chris Tomasson ‏@christomasson 8m
David Stern on flopping rules: "We knew that flopping was going to be far from perfect... The point was to do it gently.''

J.A. Adande ‏@jadande 7m
Stern said he could end flopping with suspensions, but "that would be a little bit draconian."

Chris Tomasson ‏@christomasson 6m
Stern on flopping fines: "It isn't enough. You're not going to have some player stop it for $5,000 when the average salary is $5 1/2 million

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 5m
David Stern admitted that a $5,000 fine isn't enough to prevent flopping and suggested that the flopping penalties could be changed.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:35 pm

In game reviews, what a crazy concept, the world has only had instant replay for as long as I can remember. Punishing flopping on the spot with replay would help, also reviewing flagrants and such. I'm sorry I don't buy the no suspensions for flopping excuse though, IMO that's the only thing that will scare players enough to stop.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JGC on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:22 pm

Weezy wrote:In game reviews, what a crazy concept, the world has only had instant replay for as long as I can remember. Punishing flopping on the spot with replay would help, also reviewing flagrants and such. I'm sorry I don't buy the no suspensions for flopping excuse though, IMO that's the only thing that will scare players enough to stop.


And fans will go absolutely nuts about the interpretation of a flop. If exaggerating contact is flopping then, every single player could be suspended at some point in a given season.

If they could more clearly identify the difference between a flop and not a flop, I think they could go with the harsher punishment route, but, exaggerating contact is a part of the game unfortunately so they either have to suspend everybody or suspend nobody so it sounds like, for now, they're opting to suspend nobody.

Maybe they should go the embarrassment route. Like, they have to wear a small patch for every flop incident they;'re charged with and the higher offenders will have a crap ton of patches. Haha.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:33 pm

You're right fans would complain, but I guarantee if flopping was defined (faking a foul, flailing and falling down) and punished by suspension, players would automatically stop flailing and falling down, by some miracle everyone's balance would be amazing.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JGC on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:54 pm

Weezy wrote:You're right fans would complain, but I guarantee if flopping was defined (faking a foul, flailing and falling down) and punished by suspension, players would automatically stop flailing and falling down, by some miracle everyone's balance would be amazing.


Except if the punishment were that harsh, the problem would be that the league would likely never (or rarely) ever enforce it. There is just too much gray area IMO.

Every player fakes fouls, even the old school guys do it. Heck, Kobe does it on a regular basis. Are we really going to push for a Kobe suspension when he flails his arms, yells that primal war cry "hey", when the defender stripped him clean? No way.

I think a lot of why we see more flopping, is because the rules are getting harder and harder to enforce during play. Every little tiny bit of contact is a foul now, and as a result, players are trying to do what they can to draw that foul.

If you went the other extreme and didn't call ANY fouls ever, you'd get the desired result too. No one would flop because there be no benefit to doing so.

Maybe the answer is to let them play a little more, let them get a little more physical. Just a thought.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Of course the answer to not make the league so freakin weak, you can't even touch guys anymore on the perimeter or it's a foul. But I don't see that happening, the NBA loves it's scoring, not physical play. Also, I didn't say to suspend players everytime they fake a foul, I'm not sure why you always have to go to the absolute extreme as an argument. I said "faking a foul, flailing and falling down". I didn't mean to suspend a player for faking a foul, for flailing, or for falling down, I meant you only suspend a flop where a player fakes a foul, flails, and then falls down, all of those things in one. Other things you let go or give a small fine, that'd be up to the NBA. Those kind of flops are an epidemic that need do be stopped though, that we had that happen multiple times a game in the ECF is a disgrace. Would my solution be perfect? No, not at all, I'm just throwin it out there because people would stop those flops if they could get a game suspension for them, immediately.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby trodgers on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:56 pm

Have you read the NBA's wording on what a flop is?

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/03/anti-flopping-rule/index.html

"Flopping" will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact.
Physical acts that constitute legitimate basketball plays (such as moving to a spot in order to draw an offensive foul) and minor physical reactions to contact will not be treated as flops.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Well, that's pretty broad... but still they do clarify in the last bit what won't be called a flop. If that is the rule they aren't enforcing it though, and it covers too many things.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:47 pm

I don't like the idea of replay deciding this in game. The local TV affiliates coverage is poor at best when compared to large markets like. NY or LA.

If they want to stop flops they can't take suspensions off the table. You take Chris Paul off the floor two or three times in a season the team and players will fix the problems.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:03 pm

They start suspending players for taking dives like they are in the European soccer league. Watching a fricken player the size of Lebron get bumped by a 6'0 pG and Lebron goes to the ground like the PG is fricken Mike Tyson is horrible. Watching CP3 go to the hole with the express intent to fall to the ground like he got superpunched by the Hulk is horrible. A guy yelling "Hey" or even putting their hands up when they get hit (which all of them do) isn't some gross abuse of the rule. If they won't suspend players then they need to give the refs the ability to call it a flop then award two shots and the ball to the other team. That could be a 5 point swing in a game. Players willing to throw away games?
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Punk-101 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:07 pm

I say just count them as technical fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct. 2 in one game, you get tossed. After 14 (plus regular techs) or whatever you start getting suspended.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JGC on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:28 pm

Weezy wrote:Of course the answer to not make the league so freakin weak, you can't even touch guys anymore on the perimeter or it's a foul. But I don't see that happening, the NBA loves it's scoring, not physical play. Also, I didn't say to suspend players everytime they fake a foul, I'm not sure why you always have to go to the absolute extreme as an argument. I said "faking a foul, flailing and falling down". I didn't mean to suspend a player for faking a foul, for flailing, or for falling down, I meant you only suspend a flop where a player fakes a foul, flails, and then falls down, all of those things in one. Other things you let go or give a small fine, that'd be up to the NBA. Those kind of flops are an epidemic that need do be stopped though, that we had that happen multiple times a game in the ECF is a disgrace. Would my solution be perfect? No, not at all, I'm just throwin it out there because people would stop those flops if they could get a game suspension for them, immediately.


Oh, well, in your original post, you mentioned suspension for flopping, I didn't know you meant only the most egregious of flopping would qualify. I thought you meant that anything deemed flopping would be suspendable.

Anyway, yeah to your point, there's no perfect solution to this. There are just too many shades of gray. I like the idea of using technicals but, I feel like Ts are already thrown out too liberally as it is and plus, I don't think it is something you can call in real time. It has to be after video review IMO so either during stoppage or after the game. Reason being, sometimes it is hard to tell without reviewing it if it even was a flop. LIke Tony Allen's flop, I don't know if it was a flop in the traditional sense since he did get fouled he just acted like he hurt his head when his head hit, well, nothing. Still, I didn't like seeing that, at all.

I think the most egregious of flops is easier to call. What I think is more interesting is how to handle some of the other less obvious ones. For instance, how do you handle Lebron's exaggeration of contact from Paul George in game 6? There was contact, it wasn't to the face but he swayed back like it was. But, one could argue he did that thinking he would get hit in the face as opposed to the idea he just acted the whole thing out. And what about CP3's "360" tailspin? He never fell down but the absurdity of it IMO is as bad as someone who does fall down.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Would just have to be on a case by case basis, I would think that those flops (LeBron exaggerating contact, CP3 flopcopter, Tony Allen faking head injury) would just be fines at most, because they were ridiculous, but not to me as bad as faking like you got hit so hard that you went flying down like you got taken out catching a ball across the middle in the NFL, or like you got freakin got shot. I don't know in the end what can be done, I'm just saying I feel something drastic needs to be done, and the only thing that scares players more than huge fines ($5000 is laughable) is suspensions.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Murdock on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:08 am

the biggest problem besides small fines is that they actually DO NOT enforce it enough ... I mean LeBron didn't get fined for that flop on George in game 6 ... I mean why have the policy if you don't enforce it ... also there should be heavy fines 50 000 for first one and then 100% increase so 100 000 for second one 200 000 for third one ... that would teach them

but the biggest problem is that they don't enforce it ... they fines few players at the beginning of the season and now in playoffs that for the most part that was it ... START actually ENFORCING it
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby jlkr on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:50 am

Enforcement is the biggest issue. Just 5 fines during the season ain't going to cut it.

If referees call a flop in-game, it should be an automatic flagrant 1 with a T charged to the offender; 2 shots and the ball to the opposing team. Better yet, the other team gets to pick their own best FT'er to take the shots.

Another option: if an off-site replay official calls a flop after the play is over and the game has gone on; the opposing team gets 2 FTs to be taken at the next dead ball break in play or at the end of the quarter. Probably have to work that out.

Have to work on this some more, but my feeling on this is that there have to be more drastic in-game penalties to really stop it. Right now, what's a 5 grand fine against the W? Nay, have to make players risk losing that W, then you will get the change in behavior.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JGC on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:07 am

Weezy wrote:Would just have to be on a case by case basis, I would think that those flops (LeBron exaggerating contact, CP3 flopcopter, Tony Allen faking head injury) would just be fines at most, because they were ridiculous, but not to me as bad as faking like you got hit so hard that you went flying down like you got taken out catching a ball across the middle in the NFL, or like you got freakin got shot. I don't know in the end what can be done, I'm just saying I feel something drastic needs to be done, and the only thing that scares players more than huge fines ($5000 is laughable) is suspensions.


Yeah I agree that $5K is laughable and clearly worth the risk of the reward for flopping. I'm not sure something drastic needs to be done however because to me, those egregious ones you're referring to (as in, faking like you got hit so hard you went flying down like you go out taken out in the NFL) simply don't happen very often if at all.

To me, the examples you brought up (and the ones that really need to be stopped because they happen the most) are the ones that happen the vast majority of the time and are the hardest to really evaluate.

Would you suspend this?



I mean, there is definite contact there but he ends up around the 3pt line at the point of contact, and falls down with enough force to end up near the baseline, nearly the distance of the NBA 3pt shot! There was contact there though (albeit clearly not enough to send a player just about a third of a full court distance) but, and maybe because this play involves a Laker player, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me that this should be slapped with a suspension but I would say, it is fairly egregious.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Murdock on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:35 am

jlkr wrote:Enforcement is the biggest issue. Just 5 fines during the season ain't going to cut it.

If referees call a flop in-game, it should be an automatic flagrant 1 with a T charged to the offender; 2 shots and the ball to the opposing team. Better yet, the other team gets to pick their own best FT'er to take the shots.

Another option: if an off-site replay official calls a flop after the play is over and the game has gone on; the opposing team gets 2 FTs to be taken at the next dead ball break in play or at the end of the quarter. Probably have to work that out.

Have to work on this some more, but my feeling on this is that there have to be more drastic in-game penalties to really stop it. Right now, what's a 5 grand fine against the W? Nay, have to make players risk losing that W, then you will get the change in behavior.

very nice but as you said enforcement is the issue here ... i mean how many fines has it been? 10 in the season including playoffs? i see at least 1 flops in EVERY game
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Murdock on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:41 am

JGC wrote:Yeah I agree that $5K is laughable and clearly worth the risk of the reward for flopping. I'm not sure something drastic needs to be done however because to me, those egregious ones you're referring to (as in, faking like you got hit so hard you went flying down like you go out taken out in the NFL) simply don't happen very often if at all.

To me, the examples you brought up (and the ones that really need to be stopped because they happen the most) are the ones that happen the vast majority of the time and are the hardest to really evaluate.

Would you suspend this?



I mean, there is definite contact there but he ends up around the 3pt line at the point of contact, and falls down with enough force to end up near the baseline, nearly the distance of the NBA 3pt shot! There was contact there though (albeit clearly not enough to send a player just about a third of a full court distance) but, and maybe because this play involves a Laker player, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me that this should be slapped with a suspension but I would say, it is fairly egregious.

I am for heavy fines and enforcement plus in-game off site control and handing out FT and PF during a game - everything is doable ... but as long as they choose not to enforce it doesn't matter
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby jlkr on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:48 am

In-game control has to be a necessity. In the European soccer leagues, referees have the discretion to give out red cards for diving. The red cards don't get handed out often and players still push the envelope, but it's not as bad as it used to be.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:53 am

JGC wrote:
Weezy wrote:Would just have to be on a case by case basis, I would think that those flops (LeBron exaggerating contact, CP3 flopcopter, Tony Allen faking head injury) would just be fines at most, because they were ridiculous, but not to me as bad as faking like you got hit so hard that you went flying down like you got taken out catching a ball across the middle in the NFL, or like you got freakin got shot. I don't know in the end what can be done, I'm just saying I feel something drastic needs to be done, and the only thing that scares players more than huge fines ($5000 is laughable) is suspensions.


Yeah I agree that $5K is laughable and clearly worth the risk of the reward for flopping. I'm not sure something drastic needs to be done however because to me, those egregious ones you're referring to (as in, faking like you got hit so hard you went flying down like you go out taken out in the NFL) simply don't happen very often if at all.

To me, the examples you brought up (and the ones that really need to be stopped because they happen the most) are the ones that happen the vast majority of the time and are the hardest to really evaluate.

Would you suspend this?



I mean, there is definite contact there but he ends up around the 3pt line at the point of contact, and falls down with enough force to end up near the baseline, nearly the distance of the NBA 3pt shot! There was contact there though (albeit clearly not enough to send a player just about a third of a full court distance) but, and maybe because this play involves a Laker player, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me that this should be slapped with a suspension but I would say, it is fairly egregious.


Lol, you need to bring up Kobe in every argument because....? IMO no, that's not a flop, or 'egregious', I'm not even sure why somebody bothered to make a video of it, maybe because it appears like Harden breaks Kobe's ankles, I dunno. The fall looks legit, he's old, he stumbled, only the slide looks fake, it's an exaggerated result, no foul was called, it had no impact on the game, it's not a suspension, it's that simple. No fake of a foul, no flailing, just a fall down and exaggerated slide, a non call in game as it should have been. Nice try though, good luck searching the Internet for a real Kobe flop on the level of any of those in the ECF. Not sure why it needs to be Kobe, I guess so you can show people to be hypocrites or something, but IMO that's weak. I didn't call you on it above for the "arm flailing and yelling 'hey'" thing, but how can I not for that video. If you think that's a terrible flop that deserves suspension we have a different definition of "flop". This video contains all flops by my definition, they get called for fouls, and because of it they disrupt the game, maybe even impact the game in favor of the flopper's team.

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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Murdock on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:17 pm

Weezy wrote:Lol, you need to bring up Kobe in every argument because....? IMO no, that's not a flop, or 'egregious', I'm not even sure why somebody bothered to make a video of it, maybe because it appears like Harden breaks Kobe's ankles, I dunno. The fall looks legit, he's old, he stumbled, only the slide looks fake, it's an exaggerated result, no foul was called, it had no impact on the game, it's not a suspension, it's that simple. No fake of a foul, no flailing, just a fall down and exaggerated slide, a non call in game as it should have been. Nice try though, good luck searching the Internet for a real Kobe flop on the level of any of those in the ECF. Not sure why it needs to be Kobe, I guess so you can show people to be hypocrites or something, but IMO that's weak. I didn't call you on it above for the "arm flailing and yelling 'hey'" thing, but how can I not for that video. If you think that's a terrible flop that deserves suspension we have a different definition of "flop". This video contains all flops by my definition, they get called for fouls, and because of it they disrupt the game, maybe even impact the game in favor of the flopper's team.


your lever of defending suggest the opposite ... i thought it was a flop at first after a closer look i don't know, maybe he tripped maybe not ... but c'mon don't be so touched about it ... ok you disagree with him about Kobe but writing 6 lines about it ...

anyways I am not about the flops itself (well i am) but when there was no rule about it there was nothing you could do but we have it and they still DON'T USE it ... I mean WTF why have it then?
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:40 pm

Please, don't tell me how to discuss or argue things, I will make my points however I want within the rules, in however many lines I want, it's not really your concern if you weren't even involved. You argue or discuss how you like, I'll do the same. Also, I didn't defend Kobe, I called the play like I saw it, it just happened to be Kobe, I would have said the same thing for any other player in that situation with the possible exception of a serial flopper like Chris Paul. My history with a poster I'm arguing with is not the same as your history with that poster, maybe I'm tired of discussions always pointlessly being made about Kobe that aren't about Kobe at all. It's actually off topic or it takes things off topic, it can derail a thread like it is right now. Knowing your post history I'm not really surprised you jump to JGC's defense here, but I think he's a big boy and can handle a discussion himself.

On topic, I agree, don't make a rule for flopping if you don't plan to enforce it, don't open that can of worms if you don't have to. They obviously did feel it was a problem though, or they wouldn't have made the rule.
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby JGC on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:50 pm

Weezy wrote:Lol, you need to bring up Kobe in every argument because....? IMO no, that's not a flop, or 'egregious', I'm not even sure why somebody bothered to make a video of it, maybe because it appears like Harden breaks Kobe's ankles, I dunno. The fall looks legit, he's old, he stumbled, only the slide looks fake, it's an exaggerated result, no foul was called, it had no impact on the game, it's not a suspension, it's that simple. No fake of a foul, no flailing, just a fall down and exaggerated slide, a non call in game as it should have been. Nice try though, good luck searching the Internet for a real Kobe flop on the level of any of those in the ECF. Not sure why it needs to be Kobe, I guess so you can show people to be hypocrites or something, but IMO that's weak. I didn't call you on it above for the "arm flailing and yelling 'hey'" thing, but how can I not for that video. If you think that's a terrible flop that deserves suspension we have a different definition of "flop". This video contains all flops by my definition, they get called for fouls, and because of it they disrupt the game, maybe even impact the game in favor of the flopper's team.



Well, for the same reason that whenever people talk about the media saying Lebron is the best ever, people bring up Kobe because it provides context. Same here. I think it's too easy for people to look at a Lebron flop/exaggeration (or whatever) and say "suspend the guy!" and call it justice. Similarly, I think it is too easy for people to look at one from Kobe and say "oh he was MURDERED on that play -- flagrant!"

I don't think that flop is suspension worthy. But it is a flop. And it is pretty obvious, IMO. But the point isn't to say Kobe is a flopper because he isn't. In fact, you can hardly find any plays on YouTube with the words Kobe and flop in them. And there are only two flop-ish plays of his in my mind, that I can even remember thinking aww man cmon Kob' and it was this one and the other one is where he tried drew a charge but he stuck his arms out to brace the contact and flew back like he got hit by a bullet train.

But anyway, the point is, so the slide looks fake (which I agree with) but you don't think that is egregious, why? He ended up falling at the 3pt line and ended up on the baseline with minimal contact. That slide distance wasn't at all consistent with the amount of contact on the play otherwise guys would be sliding around like bowling pins all day long. How far does a man have to slide before you say ok, that's ridiculous? From, the 3pt line to the first row? Half court slide? Full court? (That would be difficult, I'd think). I think if ANY other player had done this act, people would be calling for a flopping fine. Now, perhaps we give Kobe the benefit of the doubt here because as you said, he does not have a history if at all with this. But the reason I use this video, is because when you show a Lebron flop video, they don't see a flop, they see Lebron James. So somehow, in this discussion, we have to find a way to come up with these rules without putting a face on it because otherwise, clearly, it skews our perspective (and that's on both sides of the fence).
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Finwë on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:20 pm

^ LOL, you just don't change. "full court? (that would be difficult, I'd think)". :hurl:
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Re: Stern discusses replay review and punishment for flopping

Postby Weezy on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:19 pm

I think that argument in your last paragraph is ridiculous JGC. Any other player does that and people are calling for a flopping fine? Players do that all the time, I have seen guys fall and slide way further than they should as long as I've been watching the NBA (20 years now). Is it pointless, of course, but I don't really see that as a horrible flop, guys just do that, hell maybe it's fun to do I don't know. :man10: If you wanna be ridiculous maybe it cushions the fall to do that, either way guys have done it forever, even in situations where they aren't trying to exaggerate contact, and I have always wondered why

Also, Kobe does get the benefit of the doubt because of his lack of flopping history, this isn't the sort of flop the NBA targets anyway, as again, it gives no real advantage, no foul is called, and the defensive player only hurts his team by doing it, they don't benefit. Now if Kobe starts doing these flailing, fake contact, fall down like you were shot flops ala Chris Paul, LeBron, Blake Griffin, etc, of course he deserves a fine like anyone else as well as he should be ashamed of himself like all these floppers should.

The last bit, I get what you're saying, but I posted a video of flopping, it had no LeBron in it. Yeah when people see a LeBron flop they get madder than when they see a Tony Allen flop, but that's partly because one guy doesn't need to as he's the best in the game, one guy is a role player doing whatever he can to get an edge, so it's more understandable. Both are cheating, both are lame, but that's just how it is. All bad flops should be punished the same no matter how big the players' name is though. And with that I think I'm bowing out of this discussion, it's become too silly, another argument for the sake of arguing.
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