The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:06 pm

OK so every year we hear the pundits talk about who the MVP of the league. Each year I complain that the award is now just given to who ever the mainstream media has promoted the most. The MVP Award has been altered and changed to fit whatever that player has produced. We hear stuff like "2-man race and it ain't close!" As has been the case over the past few seasons we have been told the MVP is Lebron's and maybe KD's. It is a two-man race apparently. A couple of seasons ago (2 I think) I argued that I believed Tony Parker was the MVP even with Lebron having an otherwordly statistical season. It was the same when I thought Kobe should of won it carrying that William Parker team to the playoffs. OK, back to the point, as this season wraps up and the two-man race is in full swing who are the players that should at the very least get some MVP chatter?

At present I have 2 guys that I think have performed above expectation and have in fact carried their team to better than expected records given circumstances. Now I do not think either one should be awarded the MVP because, frankly in my opinion, KD is the clear cut MVP this season. My two MVP also-rans so far this season are Noah (Bulls) and Ginger-Spice (Clippers). Noah has been the backbone and spirit of Bulls team without a true star player. He is their MVP and they are having a great season because of him. As for the other guy when Chris Paul went down the Clippers should have folded like, well, the Clippers. However Blake carried that team to playing better without CP3 so much so that ROO's (CL Member you know) took great pride in it. Blakes game has improved he showed much more ability than simply dunking and has evolved his game on both ends. Would the Clippers be where they are in the tougher division without Blake taking over? I don't think so.

SO, instead of typing "this is stupid its Lebron and KD" read what I wrote and tell me who are your also-rans that should at least get a mention as being an MVP candidate.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:58 pm

Just because LeBron's numbers aren't quite what they've been in years past doesn't mean he's still not the front runner for the MVP. Frankly, for me, if he doesn't win it again the fix might be in like it was when Nash won it…….

KD is a fantastic scorer and getting a lot of love from the guys voting but doesn't leadership count? He's been nearly as bad as Westbrook the last month or so as OKC slides. LeBron isn't tearing it up either but the gap between him and the rest is still fairly wide IMHO.

Your other guys are good candidates but again if we're talking about the most complete players they are very flawed as well. If we're talking about a popularity contest and NBA Marketing then they have a shot….. as does KD.

For me the MVP has become a popularity contest and you can see where the critical mass is going even before the season starts by watching the previews put on by NBA TV and ESPN….. somehow they always have a lengthy profile piece on the eventual winner 9 months in advance…… amazing…..
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby abeer3 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:02 pm

LeBron's the mvp; Durant might the karl Malone this year, though.

but in keeping with the spirit of the thread (players having major impact on over-performing teams)...I would have gone with noah and kyle lowry.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Juronimo on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:29 pm

This guy should be in the conversation, I have to admit.

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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Should the MVP be the person that appears the most in the following questions posed to GM's and Coaches?

To the GM's: What player would you take to start a your franchise is you could have anyone?

To the Coaches: Which of your players is one your team cannot do without.

The person that appears the most in those two questions is the MVP......
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:55 pm

Rooscooter wrote:

Your other guys are good candidates but again if we're talking about the most complete players they are very flawed as well. If we're talking about a popularity contest and NBA Marketing then they have a shot….. as does KD.

For me the MVP has become a popularity contest and you can see where the critical mass is going even before the season starts by watching the previews put on by NBA TV and ESPN….. somehow they always have a lengthy profile piece on the eventual winner 9 months in advance…… amazing…..


I got rid of the Lebron/KD stuff because like I said they are the front runners from day one. I did keep the top paragraph because of the "complete player" reference. The MVP isn't (Or should I say shouldn't be) about the most complete player nor the best player in the game. If that was the case Shaq would have a ton of them and even Kobe would have 3 or 4 by now. This is why I made this thread to see if people could get past the media-hype and actually bring others into the MVP conversation. The Spurs once again have the best record in basketball but not one MVP candidate. The Suns have shocked the NBA with their play this season but not one candidate. The Blazers have been a beast this season but not a word about Lilliard or LA. Do I think the guys I mentioned should win? No, mainly because I really do believe in the guy I said earlier. Unfortunately I think I assumed that others might have had some thoughts on the topic outside of KD and LBJ.

On your second point you are right it is amazing that before the season the MVP seems to already be awarded. Which always brings me to the question is players like Lebron really that amazing or do people believe they are because all we see is amazing (so we are told) stuff on the news? See: James Harden superstar.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:04 pm

abeer3 wrote:
but in keeping with the spirit of the thread (players having major impact on over-performing teams)...I would have gone with noah and kyle lowry.


I really like what Noah is giving the Bulls. I can't say I have followed what Kyle has done though.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:10 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Should the MVP be the person that appears the most in the following questions posed to GM's and Coaches?

To the GM's: What player would you take to start a your franchise is you could have anyone?

To the Coaches: Which of your players is one your team cannot do without.

The person that appears the most in those two questions is the MVP......


That is a good list of questions but I would say no. The reason is most of those answers for the GM's would be whoever the consensus "Best player in the game" is at the time. The coaches are just going for their best player on their team. If you take a team like the Bulls their MVP this season is clearly Noah but he isn't their best player by far. He would be traded for Lebron, KD and a fair bit of other stars (in my opinion) in a heartbeat but that doesn't take from what he is to the team this year. I thought the same of Zack Randolph in Mem last season. I think the MVP shouldn't be influenced by bias media that only promotes what they want to promote. Can you imagine how much MVP chatter James Harden would get if ESPN promoted him like they did Lebron? Luckily they only partially promote him as a superstar but not as SUPERSTAR.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:25 pm

^^your answer is exactly why I think the two questions are the perfect way to so it. Noah isn't a MVP IMO....he wouldn't even get any consideration at all if he wasn't in the 3rd largest market. He's the Bulls most important player, but not the league's best...or most valuable player
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:52 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^your answer is exactly why I think the two questions are the perfect way to so it. Noah isn't a MVP IMO....he wouldn't even get any consideration at all if he wasn't in the 3rd largest market. He's the Bulls most important player, but not the league's best...or most valuable player


And I guess this is the problem I have the MVP is not suppose to be about the "leagues best" but about the Most Valuable player to a team. Remember back in the day they actually awarded Finals MVP's to a player on a losing team. If they wanted to give the award to the best player in the game then do so and not call it anything else. We have gotten to the point where the idea of talking about other players and what they mean to their teams success is frowned upon if not outright laughable. Take this thread the premise is simple who outside of the top 2 candidates should get at least a little consideration for the MVP due to their team success. The pundits have gotten lazy and simply force feed us what they want us to see and in turn the fans have also gotten lazy. The Lakers are hot garbage this year yet no one can answer the simple question I posed. I think that is pretty unfortunate.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:31 am

For me, the number 3 guy is definitely Griffin. Guy's been playing outstanding throughout the year, and his team is having huge success right now, and yes, I think this year the main player's been Griffin, not Paul. Also, he won't be, but to me he should be a candidate for MIP.

The number 4 guy has to be Joakim Noah, another guy who's really stepping up, he has the Bulls as a team that could give a surprise in the East, when I think they should have no business in the PO if it wasn't because of Noah (and Thibs). I think Roy Hibbert began as the favorite candidate for DPOY, but right now, Noah has surpassed him also. I don't think Noah is very high in terms of "top players in the league", but as puffy said, I don't think (actually, I'm 100% sure) the MVP isn't about that. Noah right now is incredibly valuable on a team that right now is playing very well. He's definitely not going to be the MVP, but he deserves to be in the talk
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:35 am

^ :jam2: Nice post.

I really think we have lost the purpose of the MVP. It goes back to the point where Kobe carried that team to the 7th seed and nearly beat the Suns. I think since then it hasn't been about a true MVP but more the "best player in the game on a winning team." In any case I think Lillard and Aldrige should atleast get some discussion or at the very least a little recognition for what they are doing in Portland. I don't have League pass this year so I didn't watch a ton of out of market games so I know I am missing players who should be candidates. To bad not many on this board can get over the Lebron is MVP campaign and just give some credit to the "also-rans". Thanks for the response Magic!
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:03 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^your answer is exactly why I think the two questions are the perfect way to so it. Noah isn't a MVP IMO....he wouldn't even get any consideration at all if he wasn't in the 3rd largest market. He's the Bulls most important player, but not the league's best...or most valuable player


And I guess this is the problem I have the MVP is not suppose to be about the "leagues best" but about the Most Valuable player to a team. Remember back in the day they actually awarded Finals MVP's to a player on a losing team. If they wanted to give the award to the best player in the game then do so and not call it anything else. We have gotten to the point where the idea of talking about other players and what they mean to their teams success is frowned upon if not outright laughable. Take this thread the premise is simple who outside of the top 2 candidates should get at least a little consideration for the MVP due to their team success. The pundits have gotten lazy and simply force feed us what they want us to see and in turn the fans have also gotten lazy. The Lakers are hot garbage this year yet no one can answer the simple question I posed. I think that is pretty unfortunate.


Not sure I follow Puffy..... Which team? Which team's most valuable is the leagues most valuable? Is it the best team's most valuable?...... Is it the most over achieving teams most valuable? If your team doesn't make the playoffs can a player on that team be most valuable?

You seem to be making contradictory statements..... A losing teams best player in the finals ....OK.... So he's better than the best player on the winning team? Based on what? Stats? That seems to be different than yr original point.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the most valuable player most likely wouldn't be the leagues best player from year to year..... That's the supporting argument against Kobe when Nash won back to back times it seems.

To me it has to be one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league. To say that Curry is the most important player in GS and more important than LeBron in Miami and there fore more valuable seems like a real stretch.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:03 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^your answer is exactly why I think the two questions are the perfect way to so it. Noah isn't a MVP IMO....he wouldn't even get any consideration at all if he wasn't in the 3rd largest market. He's the Bulls most important player, but not the league's best...or most valuable player


And I guess this is the problem I have the MVP is not suppose to be about the "leagues best" but about the Most Valuable player to a team. Remember back in the day they actually awarded Finals MVP's to a player on a losing team. If they wanted to give the award to the best player in the game then do so and not call it anything else. We have gotten to the point where the idea of talking about other players and what they mean to their teams success is frowned upon if not outright laughable. Take this thread the premise is simple who outside of the top 2 candidates should get at least a little consideration for the MVP due to their team success. The pundits have gotten lazy and simply force feed us what they want us to see and in turn the fans have also gotten lazy. The Lakers are hot garbage this year yet no one can answer the simple question I posed. I think that is pretty unfortunate.


Not sure I follow Puffy..... Which team? Which team's most valuable is the leagues most valuable? Is it the best team's most valuable?...... Is it the most over achieving teams most valuable? If your team doesn't make the playoffs can a player on that team be most valuable?

You seem to be making contradictory statements..... A losing teams best player in the finals ....OK.... So he's better than the best player on the winning team? Based on what? Stats? That seems to be different than your original point.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the most valuable player most likely wouldn't be the leagues best player from year to year..... That's the supporting argument against Kobe when Nash won back to back times it seems.

To me it has to be one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league. To say that Curry is the most important player in GS and more important than LeBron in Miami and there fore more valuable seems like a real stretch.
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“The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded." Dwight Eisenhower

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it" Thomas Sowell
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Magic Skywalker on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:30 am

Blake Griffin is slowly changing what I said before about him... game by game he's becoming more of a 3rd legit contender more than just "the number 3 guy behind the two beasts". Guy's just doing an incredible work with the Clippers, and he isn't slowing down a bit (while LeBron and Durant aren't in their best moment).

I don't think the media will want to go away from their two-man race, but I think Blake Griffin is becoming a legit contender.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:06 am

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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^your answer is exactly why I think the two questions are the perfect way to so it. Noah isn't a MVP IMO....he wouldn't even get any consideration at all if he wasn't in the 3rd largest market. He's the Bulls most important player, but not the league's best...or most valuable player


And I guess this is the problem I have the MVP is not suppose to be about the "leagues best" but about the Most Valuable player to a team. Remember back in the day they actually awarded Finals MVP's to a player on a losing team. If they wanted to give the award to the best player in the game then do so and not call it anything else. We have gotten to the point where the idea of talking about other players and what they mean to their teams success is frowned upon if not outright laughable. Take this thread the premise is simple who outside of the top 2 candidates should get at least a little consideration for the MVP due to their team success. The pundits have gotten lazy and simply force feed us what they want us to see and in turn the fans have also gotten lazy. The Lakers are hot garbage this year yet no one can answer the simple question I posed. I think that is pretty unfortunate.


Not sure I follow Puffy..... Which team? Which team's most valuable is the leagues most valuable? Is it the best team's most valuable?...... Is it the most over achieving teams most valuable? If your team doesn't make the playoffs can a player on that team be most valuable?

You seem to be making contradictory statements..... A losing teams best player in the finals ....OK.... So he's better than the best player on the winning team? Based on what? Stats? That seems to be different than your original point.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the most valuable player most likely wouldn't be the leagues best player from year to year..... That's the supporting argument against Kobe when Nash won back to back times it seems.

To me it has to be one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league. To say that Curry is the most important player in GS and more important than LeBron in Miami and there fore more valuable seems like a real stretch.

I tried to respond like 3 times but twice it timed out and the last time I just lost it. So this response is going to just be short out of frustration from losing the others.

I only used the Finals MVP as a reference point to show at some time in NBA history the pundits didn't just go with status quo. The regular season MVP is not the same as the Finals MVP which I am aware but this was just simply showing that sometimes they actually think it out.

I define valuable as simply valuable. Can we say KD and LBJ are the most valuable before the season starts because they are simply the best in the game right now? Some people would say CP3 is a most valuable candidate until his team continued to win without him. Does the teams continued success without said valuable player make that player no longer valuable? If Lebron sprains a pinky and is out for a month and the Heat continue to win would that erase his MVP hopes? The fact that we don't hear about the "also-rans" is the point that I am making. The MVP is decided well before the season but if it was truely a yearly award there should be some great debate and not this cut and dry crap we have been force fed over the last decade at least.

Like I said earlier just look at this thread only 3 or 4 posters have gone outside the box enough to be able to say who would be the other handful of players sitting next to the "Heisman" (so to speak) winner? The mere question shouldn't be so blasphemous that it can't even be imagined. Can it?
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: The Also-Ran.................. MVP style!

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:16 pm

^^ I understand what you are saying… there should be some recognition for the guys that "ELEVATE" a team rather than are just the most valuable or best players in the league. I don't agree that the MVP should be that way of recognition however.

I've been a fan of Rondo ever since he started playing out of his mind in the playoffs and refusing to give up…. he's a lot like Noah in that he's a flawed player when you look at his fantasy stats but the sum is far greater than what can be evaluated by stats and how realistic the CGI looks in NBA LIVE 14…..
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